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The Will Power set is very misleading. Out of the box it's probably one of the weakest Tanker sets in terms of heavy tanking. Throw Tough/Weave into it and some defense via IOs and it becomes godly. On top of that, it's just really fun to play.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
On the other hand, my WP tank, man, I didn't realize how friggin tough they were. Before respec, walked into level 53 mob and got faceplanted instantly. After respec, in a solid group with another tank, I was running 3 groups ahead and herding em into the group while the other tank and trollers kept em locked down. We were half way up the map on the way back to the front and everything was dead. I hate to say it, but I think I actually like WP more than DA. Plan on making another one with a different secondary, as I hate, and I mean HATE, EM now. |
Alabaster: Yes, because they are a popular choice right now (I think I've seen twice the amount of Stone Tankers in the past week or two then I have Invuln), and usually the only advice they get (or come away with) is "get to L32 and take Granite". You're right in that this can apply to any AT but other builds aren't usually the one trick ponies that Stone is heralded as.
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I think it's telling that you asked for comparisons between Stone Armor and Willpower, and the answers you're getting are comparing Granite Armor and Willpower. Essentially people here are comparing a single power in the Stone set against Willpower. I understand why; Granite is very powerful and is also overused. I think it's worth considering the alternative.|
Originally Posted by electric_emu
So what I'm asking is which set is better, and why? I don't expect to get a definite answer, as opinions will vary, but I want to know what people think.
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Imagine Stone Armor without the tier 9 power. It's a typed set with defense for S/L/E/NE/P and resistance for S/L/F/C. It has a significant amount of regeneration in its status protection toggle, and a click +hp/heal power. With just SOs, and Health, Tough and Weave these are the values:
Resistance:
S/L/F/C: 39%
Defense:
S/L/E/N: 32.8%
P: 46.8% (!)
F/C: 7.8%
Regen at 50: 29.2 HP/s
and Earth's Embrace.
This is a potent starting point. It would be trivially easy to softcap S/L defenses, and still easy relative to other sets to softcap E/N. P is already softcapped. F/C will remain a weakness, but the defense can be improved with set bonuses if desired.
Beyond this, I can only speculate. My Stone and WP characters are in their late 30s, so I can't speak from experience to the late-game advantages of either one. But seen this way, Stone is a strong competitor with WP, with the advantage of a far-superior tier-9. Seen this way, one doesn't need to spend IO set bonuses mitigating the drawbacks of Granite. Spend a few mitigating Rooted's runspeed penalty, a few more soft-capping S/L and maybe E/N (which also reaps dividends in Granite), and then you've got room to play with other set bonuses. In this sense, it seems to me that Willpower is the easier set to play. It's more of a fire-and-forget sort of secondary, where you have buckets of endurance to play with and all you have to worry about is toggling on when you log on. Granite is fussier, requiring management of two states (granite and non-), a click heal (used proactively or reactively?), and some knowledge of what you're facing (psi damage? Ditch Granite. F/C damage? Hit Granite. A lot of S/L? if you can handle it, stay out of Granite). On the other hand, Granite has a wider scope, allowing a relatively faster mode which is tough enough for most situations but an immobile peerless, crashless, sustainable god mode for those tough encounters.
My experience also jives with the other comments about Mud Pots being a much more effective aggro magnet than Rise to the Challenge.
Scrap
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Originally Posted by Scrapulous
I think it's telling that you asked for comparisons between Stone Armor and Willpower, and the answers you're getting are comparing Granite Armor and Willpower. Essentially people here are comparing a single power in the Stone set against Willpower. I understand why; Granite is very powerful and is also overused. I think it's worth considering the alternative.
Imagine Stone Armor without the tier 9 power. It's a typed set with defense for S/L/E/NE/P and resistance for S/L/F/C. It has a significant amount of regeneration in its status protection toggle, and a click +hp/heal power. With just SOs, and Health, Tough and Weave these are the values: Resistance: S/L/F/C: 39% Defense: S/L/E/N: 32.8% P: 46.8% (!) F/C: 7.8% Regen at 50: 29.2 HP/s and Earth's Embrace. This is a potent starting point. It would be trivially easy to softcap S/L defenses, and still easy relative to other sets to softcap E/N. P is already softcapped. F/C will remain a weakness, but the defense can be improved with set bonuses if desired. Beyond this, I can only speculate. My Stone and WP characters are in their late 30s, so I can't speak from experience to the late-game advantages of either one. But seen this way, Stone is a strong competitor with WP, with the advantage of a far-superior tier-9. Seen this way, one doesn't need to spend IO set bonuses mitigating the drawbacks of Granite. Spend a few mitigating Rooted's runspeed penalty, a few more soft-capping S/L and maybe E/N (which also reaps dividends in Granite), and then you've got room to play with other set bonuses. In this sense, it seems to me that Willpower is the easier set to play. It's more of a fire-and-forget sort of secondary, where you have buckets of endurance to play with and all you have to worry about is toggling on when you log on. Granite is fussier, requiring management of two states (granite and non-), a click heal (used proactively or reactively?), and some knowledge of what you're facing (psi damage? Ditch Granite. F/C damage? Hit Granite. A lot of S/L? if you can handle it, stay out of Granite). On the other hand, Granite has a wider scope, allowing a relatively faster mode which is tough enough for most situations but an immobile peerless, crashless, sustainable god mode for those tough encounters. My experience also jives with the other comments about Mud Pots being a much more effective aggro magnet than Rise to the Challenge. Scrap |
Once I finish IO'ing my Stone/Stone tank I'll be sitting at 46.9% s/l defense in Rock Armor. That doesn't include tough/weave in the build. Depending on the makeup of the team I'm on I will use Granite Armor as my CYA power if things are falling apart. If needed I'll run in Granite. I do agree that it's still disappointing that my tank in granite looks like everyone elses tank in Granite, but customization in i16 will hopefully cure that.
As for Granite vs. Willpower. Both have their pluses and minus'. It really comes down to what you want to do with the toon, even in the end game, and your play style.
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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The speed of stone and constantly having to be speed boosted would rather really suck. But i do not have a lvl 50 nor do i have a 50 with a Willpower tank/brute. But in my eyes if u can get a SB everynow and then, I would say that would be better than Willpower. But if no SB wich would be very easy since AE. But no SB will throw me off and make me too mad. But WP does have the heals and end modification. So thats what i think and my official opionion is prolly WP just having heals and end modification but if a SBer is there Stone FTW!
I'm Havok Charge, pay no attention to the "Mr. Gangstar" I was young.
I am a old school Granite/SS, maybe one of the first on the EU. Since i got granite, i never go outside of it. Yes, -recharge is deadly, but by compensating the need of less powers you can get more attacks. More attacks is more agro, so for the job it does just lovely.
True, granite/rooted cant move, but we are the rare breed that actualy use teleport as main travel power, both in and outside missions. Never stupid hovering after teleport, just drop on the ground and continue your thing.
When IO's came i was lucky buying the LotG's at a very low price (10-15mil) and together with 3x doctored wounds (rooted, EE, health) i manage to migate the -recharge. Damage in need i have rage, but i'm a tank and i leave damage to the others in the team.
In my entire granite life there was very little to fear, mainly psionic powers but even those i could take due a near cap health pool and only AV's would be possible deadly. (in wich case you can always pop a few insperations or sortlike - amy's wand). Other then that, Ghost widow, but i dont know many people that can hold back that trashload of magnitude, along with that 5th column guy of that ITF.
Even without IO builds, having a sonic or thermal in your team you can hit granite like resistance, defence wise a frost or FF would do pretty nice. Other hand, granite loves AM and SB's and basicly they are never to worry about regarding healing. Every primairy has achilles heel poins, compensated by other strong points.
Added, i still believe that RttC has a very weak weird agro aura, specialy compared to ice or inv. My personaly lack of WP was the heal ability, specialy against only a few mobs the regen is just too little, true against a cap-group its regen to its max. The holes of WP are easily compensated by tough/weave, but the static tier 9 aint really my style.
Overal, i will aways pick my granite. I know i am maxed on survivability and even achieve more by stronger IO's. I not always rely on SB/AM, as i can teleport, and when i know things going really bad.. i will stand my ground.
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Where was I for this? My DB/WP Scrapper is practically a Tanker
| it sucks against Alpha Strikes, |
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Just my opinion but :
End game WP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> End game Stone tank.
WP can achieve insane survivability with capped HP, huge amounts of regen, soft capped defenses, etc. The OP mentioned not being worried about herding up Tempest Quay... well a properly built WP can do it just as well as a well built stone tank. The only thing you have to worry about is toxic damage (in both cases) as there is no toxic defense. Powerforge recently tossed up a video of his WP/WM tank rounding up 10 or so Random AV's (All kinds of different damage Tyrant, Black Swan, BaB's, Citadel, Infernal etc) and basically AFK'ing in the middle of them. So as far as being "Tough enough" a well built WP will more than handle anything the game has to offer.
Stone can spend most of its efforts trying to overcome massive penalties to damage, recharge and movement where WP can achieve that same "Immortality" that stone has as well as push ahead in Damage, Recharge and movement.
The *biggest* weakness of WP is as already mentioned, the taunt aura. But between taunt and gauntlet you can perform just fine.
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Let it be known that this is with an IO WP. But if you're going to say WP can tank multiple AV's, so can Granite with enough IO's. They both can have high defense and res with IO's. I go with Granite since it already starts "godly" (lvl 32), where as in one has to make WP godlike. I would love to see a video of either in an "Ironman contest". See who dies first on multiple AV's. |
Originally Posted by MrLiberty
Just my opinion but :
End game WP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> End game Stone tank. WP can achieve insane survivability with capped HP, huge amounts of regen, soft capped defenses, etc. The OP mentioned not being worried about herding up Tempest Quay... well a properly built WP can do it just as well as a well built stone tank. The only thing you have to worry about is toxic damage (in both cases) as there is no toxic defense. Powerforge recently tossed up a video of his WP/WM tank rounding up 10 or so Random AV's (All kinds of different damage Tyrant, Black Swan, BaB's, Citadel, Infernal etc) and basically AFK'ing in the middle of them. So as far as being "Tough enough" a well built WP will more than handle anything the game has to offer. Stone can spend most of its efforts trying to overcome massive penalties to damage, recharge and movement where WP can achieve that same "Immortality" that stone has as well as push ahead in Damage, Recharge and movement. The *biggest* weakness of WP is as already mentioned, the taunt aura. But between taunt and gauntlet you can perform just fine. |
I still give it to Granite in a case using either IO's or SO's, seeing as both can reach high regen numbers (Rooted included). Till a video is made it's all just guess work.
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There is no real doubt that a stone tank in Granite and Rooted fully IO'ed is tougher. The point I was trying to make is WP can sustain insane levels of survivability well above what normal game play would normally call for, and it isn't stuck with any of the penalties of being in granite armor. |
Originally Posted by Lacrymosa
Let it be known that this is with an IO WP. But if you're going to say WP can tank multiple AV's, so can Granite with enough IO's. They both can have high defense and res with IO's. I go with Granite since it already starts "godly" (lvl 32), where as in one has to make WP godlike. I would love to see a video of either in an "Ironman contest". See who dies first on multiple AV's.
I still give it to Granite in a case using either IO's or SO's, seeing as both can reach high regen numbers (Rooted included). Till a video is made it's all just guess work. |
More importantly if you want to soft cap stone's defense and build for Regen you further sacrifice your builds offensive potential, falling further behind a WP tank in that respect.
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Amen.
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Originally Posted by MrLiberty
Just my opinion but :
End game WP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> End game Stone tank. WP can achieve insane survivability with capped HP, huge amounts of regen, soft capped defenses, etc. The OP mentioned not being worried about herding up Tempest Quay... well a properly built WP can do it just as well as a well built stone tank. The only thing you have to worry about is toxic damage (in both cases) as there is no toxic defense. Powerforge recently tossed up a video of his WP/WM tank rounding up 10 or so Random AV's (All kinds of different damage Tyrant, Black Swan, BaB's, Citadel, Infernal etc) and basically AFK'ing in the middle of them. So as far as being "Tough enough" a well built WP will more than handle anything the game has to offer. Stone can spend most of its efforts trying to overcome massive penalties to damage, recharge and movement where WP can achieve that same "Immortality" that stone has as well as push ahead in Damage, Recharge and movement. The *biggest* weakness of WP is as already mentioned, the taunt aura. But between taunt and gauntlet you can perform just fine. |
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Where in tanking is damage a penalty? Where in tanking is movement a penalty? (apart from a few nukes that are scary). Why would a WP need more recharge, if their only power that has recharge, is unaffected by it?|
Originally Posted by MrLiberty
Just my opinion but :
Stone can spend most of its efforts trying to overcome massive penalties to damage, recharge and movement where WP can achieve that same "Immortality" that stone has as well as push ahead in Damage, Recharge and movement. . |
The fact remains, end game =! IO build. If we talk about 2-3billion builds, these cant be achieved by just doing some random end-game content, i dont consider farming for inf as part of end-game.
Granite will remain the lead in survivability, only untill the very last end when you get to the big-bang-for-the-bucks IO's WP is taking over (but in that content, other primairies can do the same). Afaik WP cant hit cap SL resist by plain its own powers, you are basicly forced to get tough/weave, i say penalty, since the IO SL bonusses are that small, you cant get it from there.
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Quote:
Movement is a big tanking penalty. Damage is also a threat tanking penalty. Besides, you only need one tank in a group. Taking a second tank is much easier to palate when it can actually do some decent damage.|
Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
Where in tanking is damage a penalty? Where in tanking is movement a penalty? (apart from a few nukes that are scary). Why would a WP need more recharge, if their only power that has recharge, is unaffected by it?
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The fact remains, end game =! IO build. If we talk about 2-3billion builds, these cant be achieved by just doing some random end-game content, i dont consider farming for inf as part of end-game. Granite will remain the lead in survivability, only untill the very last end when you get to the big-bang-for-the-bucks IO's WP is taking over (but in that content, other primairies can do the same). Afaik WP cant hit cap SL resist by plain its own powers, you are basicly forced to get tough/weave, i say penalty, since the IO SL bonusses are that small, you cant get it from there. |
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Since when is damage used for agro? Afaik each attack has a static ammount of threath generated. And what are the odds today that you are not running with a kin, making a perma FS pretty often cap out damage anyway. 30% noticable? Unlikely.|
Originally Posted by Ahmon
Movement is a big tanking penalty. Damage is also a threat tanking penalty. Besides, you only need one tank in a group. Taking a second tank is much easier to palate when it can actually do some decent damage.
There is also nothing in the game that you need a Stone tank for, period. Apart from the 1% of times where you can outlive a Willpower, the penalties clearly outweigh the benefits. And once you both are 50, I've never encountered a situation where a Stone can outlive a Willpower. |
Its funny, i remember dozen of threads about granite should be made a clicky, as the penalties are too easy to overcome. But yet not overcome enough to 'match' with other primairies so it seems.
And even so, some swear by inv's, others see ice as best ever. Playstyle combined with build make result. Farming wise i've seen dozen of WP's going down, majorty to wrong play or not taking tough (to cap SL vs +5 SL bosses). Secondairy set also increase survivability, taking fire versus SS/Ice can make a huge difference in survival.
At the end, pretty much any primairy can stay alive in majority of endgame stuff, its mainly the preference of the player what makes the difference. Some are better at one thing, others at some other thing. I choose granite, the less i worry about myself, the more i can focus on keeping my team alive.
PvP however, if you consider that part of end game, ever other AT or set can perform better then stone armor
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I think you're taking the conversation out of the scope of what it was intended.|
Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
Where in tanking is damage a penalty? Where in tanking is movement a penalty? (apart from a few nukes that are scary). Why would a WP need more recharge, if their only power that has recharge, is unaffected by it?
The fact remains, end game =! IO build. If we talk about 2-3billion builds, these cant be achieved by just doing some random end-game content, i dont consider farming for inf as part of end-game. Granite will remain the lead in survivability, only untill the very last end when you get to the big-bang-for-the-bucks IO's WP is taking over (but in that content, other primairies can do the same). Afaik WP cant hit cap SL resist by plain its own powers, you are basicly forced to get tough/weave, i say penalty, since the IO SL bonusses are that small, you cant get it from there. |
Stone Armor will always be greater then Will Power given equivelant builds, simply because it starts from a stronger base. In that you are correct.
However both can exceed in durability anything this game has to throw at them. Given that, the general consensus is that WP is much more satisfying to play in that it doesn't come with Stone's penalties (both mechanical and aesthetic).
P.S. - I spent about 40mil influence on my WP Tanker and he out tanks most every Stoner I've compared him to. One of the perks about WP is that it's easier (and cheaper) to build defense then it is to build recharge via IOs.
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The threat a Tanker generates is anything bit static, Castle made a long post about it a while back. Taunt (the mechanic - which includes Gauntlet) is a giant threat modifier. One of the factors is damage. The more damage you deal, the more threat you'll generate. It is ironic that a Taunting (the power) WP will out threat a Stone Tank in Granite (ex: against an AV) because it can Taunt/attack faster and deal more damage, too.|
Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
Since when is damage used for agro? Afaik each attack has a static ammount of threath generated. And what are the odds today that you are not running with a kin, making a perma FS pretty often cap out damage anyway. 30% noticable? Unlikely.
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(Mudpots is still better for aggro in the general case.)
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Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
At the end, pretty much any primairy can stay alive in majority of endgame stuff, its mainly the preference of the player what makes the difference. Some are better at one thing, others at some other thing. I choose granite, the less i worry about myself, the more i can focus on keeping my team alive.
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[edit: WP has it's own unique playstyle that isn't for everybody. I like it, obviously, but I wouldn't recommend it for everyone.]
Scrapulous, that is a fair counter example, thanks! the only thing I'd refute is the fact the Stone Tank was running more toggles (8 vs 6) and burning far more endurance (mudpots alone is around the same cost as all 4 of WP's base toggles combined.)
OK. Here is an AE mission that I tested (I didn't publish it since I was just looking to test it). All at the highest levels possible within AE. I was completely alone with no outside buffs or temp powers.
It had everything from the final mission of the LRSF. I tried to make it on a small map so that I could actually fight them all at the same time, but it wasn't possible when I made the test. The most I could get where 3-4 of them at at time before they ran back.
If memory serves this was how they grouped up most of the time (a few times I got an extra but I can't remember how it lined up, and I never died in any combo):
States
BaBs
Manticore
Citadel
Positron
Synapse
Numina
Sister Psyche
I can't remember where Ms Liberty was. I might not even have remembered to add her.
Not only did I survive these, I was able to afk on most of them. The only moderate challenge group was Numina/Sister Psyche since they were psi. I tried this a couple of ways. The first was just staying in granite and putting EE on auto. They couldn't kill me. The second was swapping out of granite putting minerals on and they couldn't kill me there either.
The other groups were a joke where I didn't have to do anything but sit there and they couldn't even move my health bar.
I'd challenge a WP to try the same thing and report back their results. Pure survivability there is nothing tougher than a well built stone tank. Someone might be able to equal that level of survivability, but I can't imagine any tougher easy to setup survivability challenge.
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Does WP have end-drain resist btw? My granite runs only 3 toggles, i wonder what the other 5 would be? (FA, assault, weave, manuevers and err?) Or that was non-granite based? wich is indeed a end-nightmare.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Scrapulous, that is a fair counter example, thanks! the only thing I'd refute is the fact the Stone Tank was running more toggles (8 vs 6) and burning far more endurance (mudpots alone is around the same cost as all 4 of WP's base toggles combined.)
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*6th time i have to log in.. awww i hate this*
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| Someone might be able to equal that level of survivability, but I can't imagine any tougher easy to setup survivability challenge. |
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Quote:
Stone's end drain resist is in Rooted. Willpower has Quick Recovery, so it doesn't have end drain resist--it simply gets to have the option of more endurance recovery all the time (Quick Recovery provides more end recovery than Stamina out of the box, plus you can always take Stamina on top of it).|
Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
Does WP have end-drain resist btw? My granite runs only 3 toggles, i wonder what the other 5 would be? (FA, assault, weave, manuevers and err?) Or that was non-granite based? wich is indeed a end-nightmare.
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As an addendum, Willpower really has only two weaknesses: its poor taunt aura and its many holes in debuff resistance. The first can be made up for via any combination of extra taunt enhancements, taking Taunt, and using a lot of AoE attacks. The second can be made up for by simply piling on as much defence as possible.
At that point, you're still not as survivable as a similar cost Granite, but well above the survivability threshold needed to tank anything in the game on a team, and many times solo. Plus you'll actually get to run, jump, and do damage.
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Scrapulous was saying that everyone was comparing WP to Granite, rather than Stone Armor (which I was guilty of). Stone could skip in / out of Granite as the situation dictates. The 8 toggles I cited was out of Granite (Stone, Crystal, Brimstone, Minerals, Rooted, MP, Tough, Weave).|
Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
Does WP have end-drain resist btw? My granite runs only 3 toggles, i wonder what the other 5 would be? (FA, assault, weave, manuevers and err?) Or that was non-granite based? wich is indeed a end-nightmare.
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Also, no, WP does not have any end drain resistance.
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As for a video of WP Tanker survivability, it's funny you mentioned that. Powerforge (sorry for using you as an example) recently posted a video of him Tanking the entire Praetorian crew (10 AVs). The video is listed in his sig (which you can get to from the link above).
Note: He does die at the end, but that's after 5-10 mins (or more) of tanking them (time wasn't at 1x speed the whole time). He died at the because he somehow got held. I'd say that is substantially higher than the necessary survivability for 99% of the game.
No, willpower lacks endurance drain resistance. I can't imagine a stone tanker running the fighting pool on top of Granite, myself; seems like gilding the lily.
My first IO project was to remake Heraclea in the image of a Willpower tanker. Now, I've rolled an experimental WP/SS tanker that I'm attempting to remake in the image of Invulnerability. I have maybe over half the critical invention sets in this goal build collected so far, and the tanker is level 47. Even so, the results seem quite gratifying, and superior to my WP/DM tanker who was built in a more conventional WP mode, stressing hit points and regeneration bonuses. I believe that when this WP tanker is finished, she will have survivability comparable to Granite.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
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Hypsiste: Level 50 Technology Tanker
Primary Power Set: Willpower
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(5), Numna-Heal/Rchg(15), S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(17), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(19)
Level 1: Jab -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(3), KntkC'bat-Knock%(40), Acc-I(43), EndRdx-I(43)
Level 2: Fast Healing -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(5), Heal-I(17)
Level 4: Haymaker -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(7), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(11), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Acc-I(36), EndRdx-I(37)
Level 6: Indomitable Will -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(7)
Level 8: Rise to the Challenge -- Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(9), Numna-Heal(9), DarkWD-Slow%(15), Taunt-I(34), Taunt-I(34)
Level 10: Air Superiority -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(11), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(37), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Acc-I(43)
Level 12: Quick Recovery -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(13), EndMod-I(13)
Level 14: Fly -- Flight-I(A)
Level 16: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 18: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(19), Heal-I(21)
Level 20: Knockout Blow -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(21), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(25), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Lock-Acc/Hold(31), Lock-Acc/Rchg(33)
Level 22: Mind Over Body -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(23), RctvArm-ResDam(23), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(33), RctvArm-EndRdx(46)
Level 24: Taunt -- Annoy-Taunt(A), Annoy-Taunt/Rchg(48), Annoy-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(48)
Level 26: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(27), P'Shift-End%(27)
Level 28: Rage -- AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(A), AdjTgt-Rchg(29), AdjTgt-EndRdx/Rchg(29), Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(34), Rec'dRet-Pcptn(46), AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(50)
Level 30: Heightened Senses -- S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(A), S'dpty-Def/Rchg(31), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31), S'dpty-Def(33)
Level 32: Strength of Will -- Aegis-Psi/Status(A)
Level 35: Boxing -- Rope-Acc/Rchg(A), Rope-Acc/EndRdx(36)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(39), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(39), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Oblit-%Dam(40)
Level 41: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-EndRdx/Rchg(42), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(42), RctvArm-ResDam(42), RctvArm-EndRdx(46)
Level 44: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-EndRdx/Rchg(45), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(45), LkGmblr-Def(45)
Level 47: Char -- Lock-Acc/Hold(A), Lock-Acc/Rchg(48)
Level 49: Melt Armor -- ExVuln-DefDeb(A), ExVuln-DefDeb/Rchg(50), ExVuln-DefDeb/Rchg/EndRdx(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Quote:
For my ultimate survivability mode I run:|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
No, willpower lacks endurance drain resistance. I can't imagine a stone tanker running the fighting pool on top of Granite, myself; seems like gilding the lily.
|
Granite
Weave
Maneuvers
Rooted
(Stone Skin)
(Mud Pots)
I really only have Maneuvers for a place to slot an LoTG and a GoTA, but I usually run it and weave to get over the defense softcap to all without having to worry about set bonuses for defense and that seemed like a worthy tradeoff to me since I don't worry about endurance at all.
I toggle off Rooted for 99% of the content in the game.
EDIT:
Oh and solo/small groups I just run:
Rock Armor
Tough
Weave
Maneuvers
Rooted
(Stone Skin)
(Mud Pots)
and possibly Minerals if there is psi involved.
Quote:
I imagine that while you're in Granite with all those toggles on, you're not doing much more than standing there and hitting Taunt and the occasional AoE?|
Originally Posted by Alabaster12
For my ultimate survivability mode I run:
Granite Weave Maneuvers Rooted (Stone Skin) (Mud Pots) I really only have Maneuvers for a place to slot an LoTG and a GoTA, but I usually run it and weave to get over the defense softcap to all without having to worry about set bonuses for defense and that seemed like a worthy tradeoff to me since I don't worry about endurance at all. I toggle off Rooted for 99% of the content in the game. EDIT: Oh and solo/small groups I just run: Rock Armor Tough Weave Maneuvers Rooted (Stone Skin) (Mud Pots) and possibly Minerals if there is psi involved. |
I also imagine that you're not literally running around with Rooted off 99% of the time, considering you kind of need it on when fighting outside of Granite.
God, I hate this new format (first post since servers came back). 
Stone vs. Will is a really weird comparison... really apples & oranges to me. I like them both just fine. Will does more than fine, esp IOed out, w/99% of the content in the game. For the 1%, I like my Stony (and for the 99% in my Stone, I don't run Granite all that much).
Don't want to rehash a lot of the arguments above, but some stuff ppl seem to glossing over:
Granite + Rooted = more mez protection than IW alone. SoW evens the score, but it's can't be up all the time like Granite can. I mention this, cuz I got held through IW, a few outside buffs & a bunch of BFs while tanking GW last night on my WP/SS. It was on a lucky shot and we got her anyway, but it was still a bit galling. Also, I've noticed my WP scrapper at least getting mezzed a LOT against Malta of late, and then there's AE mobs. Having the option of always having like 35 pts of mez protection is really nice.
Also, did someone actually equate QR to end drain protections? Seriously? Sappers will suck you dry no matter how much recovery you have, but my Stony in Rooted laughs at them. For normal play, QR is teh uber, of course.
Pots is such a better taunt aura than RttC, it's not even funny. Plus, it's an underrated damage aura which mitigates some of Granite's penalties, and if you don't run Granite all the freakin' time (cuz, you know, you shouldn't), guess what, Stone outdamages WP because of Pots.
Serously, I play both and I love both. They both need so much less work to enjoy than, say, a Fire tank, whom I've only started playing again after IO'ing the crap out of. In fact, Fire's about the only set I really don't enjoy playing (again, unless you IO the hell out of it, then it's cool again).
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
I made my stone/axe tanker in i5 and levelled that tanker to 50 shortly afterwards, but hardly play her any more. Granite is very tough. It is also very annoying - the speed debuff in itself is not so bad, but the inability to jump over common obstacles in the game is. And granite just doesn't mesh well with many concepts, and without a concept I cannot enjoy a character.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison