Mind/Storm: No Love?

I've played all types of characters, hero and villain, at least 4 or 5 different kinds of every archetype. I turned my thoughts to rolling up another controller, a concept that calls for Mind Control and Storm Summoning. Here on the new forums, the guides aren't working yet, for some reason; clicking on the links only takes me to a 404 page.

I have tried neither Mind Control nor Storm Summoning before, and I look forward to the challenge of learning them both. Failing the advice of the guides, I looked in this forum at threads going back a year. While I found a build or two, and a few opinions about Mind/Storm that were both positive and negative, nowhere did I see WHY the pairing was good or bad.

I plan to use the character to solo, to duo, to team. Would anyone be so kind as to tell me why, specifically, they like or dislike this combo? Is there any synergy? Do they work against each other? As I've said, I'm looking forward to learning these powersets. However, if the two of them combined will just be an everlastingly frustrating experience, then I'd rather get some sense of that now as opposed to 3 months of playing, all the while thinking I'm just not doing it right, when it's not me, it's the pairing.

Thank you in advance for your time, consideration and any advice you may offer.

It's a great combo, the only problem is that you don't have any power to immobilize the mobs and every power you use weak them from Mass Hypnosis.
Everything you actually need is just some training and see how to use effectivly your powers

I spent 45 mins writing a mini guide but the forum ate it :'(

I'm the forums resident Mind/Storm and in the process of writing a guide, here some useful tidbits that should help however.

Short Version: Yes they are very compatiable.

Mind Control Strengths:
i) Powerful single target attack chain straight out of the box (Mesmerize, Levitate, Dominate)
ii) Powerful AoE control, Mass Hypnosis, Mass Confusion, Total Domination, Terrify.
iii) No knockback protection for when using freezing rain = more soft control.
iv) Good AoE damage before EPP's with Terrify
v) Aggro free controls which don't give away your presence.

Weaknesses:
i) No reliable containment outside of Total Domination. Mass hypnosis can set up initial containment, but it breaks early.
ii) No knockback protection (Means Tornado has to be reserved for groups or elite bosses)

Storm has great synergy here though. Mind Control is one of the few Control sets which gets such a huge benefit from Thunderclap, a fast recharge, long duration, large radius Mag 2 stun. This allows you to put containment on all minions and then AoE them down with Terrify + EPP AoE.

Storm's steamy mist allows you to really reap the benefits from the no aggro control as well. In a team, you can always be 1 step ahead of the group, prepering the mobs before the team even arrives.

Storm also brings 2 great pets, just incase you missed them. Lightning Storm and Tornado. Lightning Storm to me, is the perfect Controller pet. Summon it when needed, it doesn't run off chasing mobs, its reliable and if you stack recharge, you can have 2 or 3 of them up at once. Just be clever how you position it, each bold causes knockback which you cannot prevent. Tornado isn't as useful for a Mind/, however it is awesome against Elite bosses and AV's who are immune to knockback, so it just sits next to them dealing lovely smashing damage.


Mind/Storm is an awesome combination. It soloes well right from level 1, adds lots to a team and is fun to level up because it is always increasing in power. Once you hit 50, there are lots of oppertunities for some massive IO slotting also.

As for which powers to skip for power pools, consider these 4:

1)Snow Storm - you wont be needing this except at low levels or the occasional AV fight. However at low levels you don't have stamina and thus drains you of end fast. Also only used in teams, pointless solo with the amount of single target stuff at your disposal.

2) Telekinesis - Toggle end and repel which while nice, is not necessary. Hurricane does a better job with repel plus brings a good debuff for EB fights. Stacking hold magnitude is great but again, Mind has many ways to control a single boss you don't really need another.

3) o2 Boost - A good heal but cannot be used solo and has a very limited effect. It is nice for keeping the team topped up however if you focus too much on healing, you wont be controlling and as a result, will doom the team you are meant to be protecting.

4) Tornado - I like this power, however I left it till 49 to claim it. It's great for EB's for extra damage which I felt would help me the most. However in most fights as a Mind/Storm you wont find Tornado particularly helpful, EB fights are only a small portion of the game and Tornado only helps if you are trying to solo them really, unless the group is struggling.

Mind Storm, to me, is an awesome combo simply because of all the great tools in your toolbox that do totally different things. You have Sleep, Holds, Fear, Confuse, Knockup, Pushback, Knockback, Repel, Stealth, Elemental Resistance, -Recharge, -Slow, -Defense Debuff, -Resist Debuff, Stun, and of course Damage. There is a LOT to do.

Also, Mind Control is one of the better "solo if you can't get a team" primaries, in that you have a single target damage chain. That way, whether you like to solo or team, you'll be sure to get up to all the juicy storm powers.

Another great thing about the combo is that you can totally go bat-****-insane and whip up all kinds of chaos if you want to. And yet, you dont have to. You can reign yourself in, leverage a little containment (total dom and thunderclap and to a lesser degree mass hypnosis) and be all teamy and focused and use powers sparingly, or you can GO NUTS and not even worry about whether your hurricane is scattering things or your mass hypnosis or fear are being disturbed. You can generate so much chaos that it simply doesnt matter.

I've played Mind/Storm to 50, and it is a LOT of fun. The higher you go, the more fun it gets.

Lewis

(There is no sarcasm when I say that) anyone who considers freezing rain the centerpiece or best thing in Storm is much better off playing Cold Domination. It has clones of many "mash potato and peas" Storm powers with other things making it a powerful and relatively well-behaved set.

Secondly, the inability to leverage solo AoE-containment is a feature of Mind rather than a peculiarity of its combination with any particular secondary. Unless one is fighting cons so low one single AoE from mass hypnosis clears them out.

Thirdly, thunderclap does indeed have a small magnitude, but it is not small in radius of effect, as suggested by comparison with TK radius (which really is tiny).

But, as much as I like to give a rousing defence of the combo, game design and game population neither needs nor welcomes what Mind/Storm brings, and the combo also lacks what game design and game population wants from a controller. By this I mean that the game runs on the grease of 1) just enough control and AoE damage on large spawns of easily controlled, tightly packed mobs, 2) destruction of single AVs with all that it entails.

Sorry to be a wet blanket. I've played the combo since issue 3 and although I still play it and keep swapping my builds (you can do a lot with IOs), it's sort of easier to achieve what the game wants from the player with other combos, unless you really like what gale, hurricane, tornado, thundercloud do to mobs.

Unfortunately you are going to see me disagreeing with anyone who doesn't find Mind/Storm one of the most awesome powerset combos available. I've soloed the combo through every storyarc and done almost every TF and have never found it anything less then amazing at lockdown, damage and buff/debuffs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enantiodromos Mind really can't. Thunderclap is far too small and low mag, TK is likewise tiny and end-intensive, Total Dom is up only half as often as FR, Mass Hypnosis gets broken by FR's damage ticks. Terrify + Fireball are fun to hammer foes with, when you can contain 'em, as became my habit while I was playing my late-game Mind/Rad. And you could still use EF there.

Thunderclap, small radius? Your Mind may be Mind/Rad, but please don't disregard Thunderclap just because most people do. For Mind Control it is very powerful, because it fills the containment gap which you described. Here are the stats for my Thunderclap, just to bring some numbers in:

End Cost: 10.4
Acc: 1.44
Recharge: 18s
Duration: 34.1s
Radius: 25
Mag: 2

This sets up containment on minions, and combined with Psychic Tornado + Terrify, I can almost 2 shot every minion in a pack. Again, this is something that has been missed in this conversation, Mind Control actually brings 2 AoE attacks to the table for even more AoE damage. It is rivalled only by Fire/ because of hot feet, but Mind's combo works much more frontloaded. If you pair up Mind Control with Storm, you can really leverage the double AoE damage due to the extra containment option.

Now you may be right in saying that one cannot expect to set up Thunderclap when in big teams or TF's, and you would be right if not for Mass Hypnosis and Steamy Mist. This allows you to creep into the middle of a slept spawn and Thunderclap without fear. I've done this on many TF's to great effect.

So really, this notion that Mind Control and Freezing Rain don't work together is only accurate at low levels or play, in my experience. When all you have is Mass Hypnosis and Total Domination, and you aren't properly slotted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freem_NA Secondly, the inability to leverage solo AoE-containment is a feature of Mind rather than a peculiarity of its combination with any particular secondary. Unless one is fighting cons so low one single AoE from mass hypnosis clears them out. Thirdly, thunderclap does indeed have a small magnitude, but it is not small in radius of effect, as suggested by comparison with TK radius (which really is tiny).

Well I do agree, containment is Mind's weakness. However like you say, Thunderclap does have a big radius and I posted the stats of it above. Really, Thunderclap is an excellent power to fill this gap and is one of the reasons Mind/Storm is so great.

Also while Mind has more difficulty setting up AoE containment regularly, it does have higher AoE damage then most sets since it has its own AoE damage, Terrify.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freem_NA But, as much as I like to give a rousing defence of the combo, game design and game population neither needs nor welcomes what Mind/Storm brings, and the combo also lacks what game design and game population wants from a controller. By this I mean that the game runs on the grease of 1) just enough control and AoE damage on large spawns of easily controlled, tightly packed mobs, 2) destruction of single AVs with all that it entails.

I completely disagree (not suprisingly perhaps >_>) I can't see how you can argue that the population neither needs nor welcomes what Mind/Storm brings to the table.

Mind Control may suffer with AoE containment, but it does not suffer from a lack of AoE control. Mass Hypnosis, Mass Confusion, Total Domination, Terrify, these are more than enough in my experience. When you get really high amounts of recharge, Mass Confusion and Total Domination can easily do most of the control, and you have plenty of choice for when neither are available. The debuffs Storm brings such as Freezing Rain and Hurricane, but also the buffs such as Steamy Mist and o2 Boost are amazing for teams.

As for AV's, I've always felt that I am a big player when fighting AV's at the end of a TF. Hurricane brings -45% to hit, meaning that they rarely land an attack. Freezing Rain, Tornado and Lightning Storm add to the damage. If I am lucky to pair with someone who grabbed their single target Immobalize, my Mind powers can do a lot of damage to.

Really the only thing I cannot stop is their regen and to be honest, when I bring so much to a team already, I honestly don't feel that -regen is my responsibility.

I've tried to stay out of this thread as much as possible, because Enan and I have a history of heated debates.

That being said... Enan's wrong. :P

You're basing your entire argument on the (faulty) assumption that AoE Containment damage is what matters on a team.

in fact, the only time I can think of when a troller needs to rely on AoE Containment damage would be a team with only 1 controller and the rest tanks, since any other team combo would have some means of reasonable damage (whether it be direct damage through ATs like Scrappers or Blasters, or indirect damage through Defenders with buffs/debuffs or extra controllers, who can add to containment) and lets face it... a 1 controller/7 tank team isn't exactly the most common combination.

A Controller's main task on a team is *not* AoE damage, it is control, and Mind/Storm brings quite a bit of that to the table. A non-grav controller trying to leverage freezing rain for AoE containment is putting the team at a disadvantage, since they are negating one of it's biggest assets, the knockdown.

[QUOTE=Psyonico;2080257]

*deleted, sorry daughter got on the keyboard*

excellent, now we are getting somewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enantiodromos The OP asked for why there are objections to Mind/Storm. I explained. My "entire argument" amounts to explaining one objection to Mind/Storm as a choice among a very finite set of possible controller combos. I didn't make any arguments that it "is what matters," or that "a troller needs to rely on AoE Containment damage" or that "[a] Controller's main task on a team [is] AoE damage." My argument was pretty specific, and didn't depend from any belief on my part that AoE containment damage is the only thing that matters. As you'd know had you read it.

up until this post, your posts in this thread have simply backed the first statement you made in this thread:

Quote:

Storm's best power, hands down, is Freezing Rain. It does just loads of stuff, but the centerpiece of it is that (at its size) it's a huge resistance debuff. Almost any build that can't leverage FR's awesome -Res makes me want to cry

Now, I have no issue with someone raising a point and then backing it, however, my comment about AoE Containment damage was based on everything that prior to my post.

Quote:

Now. In fact-- and this is a rough truth for most controllers and many defenders (fans of FF, Sonic, Empathy, and the Knock* in Storm), mitigation is a self limiting contribution on any decent team, because: debt is negligable and a majority of ATs bring some mitigation even before you talk about face-based aggro splitting. Psy, control, healzoring, bubbling, knocking down-- these things are weak contributions, especially because they very quickly become redundant. Only lousy PuGs and some arcane endgame things need more mitigation than any pair of controllers provide. Really, that's beyond the scope of this thread though. I believe we were talking to reasons people have for avoiding Mind/Storm. If you find flaws in what I actually said re: that, I'm sure your insight would be worthwhile.

While I see, and partially agree, on why this is beyond the scope of the thread (and perhaps it's worth a good long thread to discuss it, I have to restrain myself from fully agreeing that it is beyond the scope of the thread, for it does quite a good job of explaining how you came to the conclusion that Freezing rain is the best power in Storm. so, from that standpoint, I can continue.

Before I do that, however, I would like to note that I made my comment to the OP in one of the earliest posts in this thread, I feel my contribution to the specific topic at hand has been made, and therefore, do not feel bad about this semi-tangent the thread has turned to.

Hurricane/Gale are, to a Mind/Storm, as important as Freezing Rain/Tornado is to a Fire/Storm.

While a Mind/Storm can't harness AoE containment as well, it can use KB/Repel more effectively because of the lack of -kb, what this means is that spread out groups/multiple spawns can be quickly and efficiently packed together where more significant AoEers (see: Blasters) can tear the enemies to shreads. While there aren't any numbers to back it up, I wouldn't be surprised if a good Mind/Storm and Blaster combo would produce similar results as a good Fire/Storm and Blaster combo in terms of defeat speed.

Very informative replies, all, and just the sort of detail I was after. I've decided that, while I may take up Mind Control and Storm Summoning in future characters, it won't be the same character. I will continue to examine my choices whilst my brain produces another concept idea from the back-burner. Thanks very much for all your help!