redomax says 120sec duration with 240sec cooldown. So with 100% recharge on the power its already.
So, i believe 3x lvl50 IO gives 91%, leaves you with roughly 10% you need on global recharge. This is easiest way to achieve with the heal-set (doctored wounds?) wich have 5% recharge at 5 pieces.
The IO set aint that expensive i believe (last time i bought it is very long ago), so its cheap and doable, but do mind that anything that gives -slow will not make it perma anymore. (psi dmg does -recharge).
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
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Very easy to get double rage, mines has shown tripple (even though you get no bonueses from it)
5 Adjusted Targetting in rage which are cheap will also give you a global 5% recharge to, an that'll make it perma by 2 seconds 
Easy
@Effy
Effy On Hot Sauce Fire/Cold Corr
Effy On Hot Chilli Fire/Dark Corr
Effy On Heat FM/SD Before FoTM
Effy Unleashed DP/EN Blaster 1st 50 @ Union
Firstly, forr rage to be classed as perma, it needs to recharge in 118.83 seconds.
Slotting it with four lvl 50 common recharge reduction IO's will have it recharge in 116.8 seconds (without set bonuses). So it's a easy task to have it perma.
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Very easy to get double rage, mines has shown tripple
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I'm pretty sure that it isn't possible to attain Rage triple stacked.
Maximum recharge able to slot = 400%
Base recharge of Rage = 240 seconds
240 seconds / by 20% = 48 seconds
48 seconds x two = 96
48 seconds x three = 144
From that, it's possible to double stack it, but not triple stack it.
Actualy its:
pop rage - 48sec cooldown - pop rage(2) - 48sec cooldown pop rage(3), at wich point are around 96seconds and the first rage is still running.
With no cast-time you can rearch a few seconds of 3x rage just over 300% recharge. With enough external +recharge, that is quite doable (you can hit 200+% yourself already).
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
My bad. I made a silly mistake and took it from the time three rages take to actually recharge...
Nothing to see here..... 
(chuckle)
Maybe this deserves a place in "Jeff Vader's greatest 'noob' moments" 
Excellent cheers guys - I will wait patiently to get a few more levels and see where some level 50 IOage gets me!
Golden-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Fire/Fire Tank
Oodja Nikabolokov - Lvl 50 SS/WP Brute
Baby-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Peacebringer
How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could Chuck Norris?
I'll borrow the title now that its been fully used. Is it possible for a Dark melee Brute to outdamage a Dark melee Scrapper?
I think yes 'when' there is a better damage aura involved from the secondary or when there is the extra survivability from the brute (but what about supersetted scrapper versus basic setted Brute?)
I am not convinced that pound for pound the Brute leads in DPS versus the Scrapper based on primaries alone. Whereas in RWZ its fairer to let a Brute take an alpha as a Tanker or Scrapper when it comes to it many tanks or scrappers could decide on starting on that next or 'other group within perception range' that is likely to be pulled also and take the fight to them before they alpha any squishie member of the team.
In RWZ it sometimes pays to alternate on who starts on groups as the time for consolidating aggro control for other peoples aoes can disappear.
I find that some people are too set on one team dynamic when there can be more than one, a more exciting and challenging one even and at certain points alternatives can be tried.
Given the likelihood of aggroing 2 groups, as there is no intention to pull it's better if the Brute enters the more difficult one and the scrapper takes the easier one failing that either one can aim to prevent attacks on fellow members but in this case it is actually best done by a brute. For me its better if the Brute enters the harder one, or the one that it is more suited to or the one that is in a position very easy to congaline the next group from to maintain fury.
Either way on heroic setting you can often expect either to hold off either group on their own and its simply a good idea to use powers that can get you aggro around the one most likely to keep it from you as a support character. Which could lead in DPS depends on the player, their powersets and insp tray.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I dont know the base scaling factors of scrapper and brute, but i asume - with no outside buffing/insp - a brute should outdamage a scrapper due his fury buildup.
But once u are free to use anything at hands, scrapper could reach the upperhead if they have a significat higher base damage.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
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I dont know the base scaling factors of scrapper and brute, but i asume - with no outside buffing/insp - a brute should outdamage a scrapper due his fury buildup.
But once u are free to use anything at hands, scrapper could reach the upperhead if they have a significat higher base damage.
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The figure I heard bandied around on the US Boards was Fury over 85% I think. But Build Up probably breaks that in the favour of the scrapper as well.
There's a DPS chart of Brute and Scrapper primaries here for those interested. It's assumptions are fairly light too in terms of how things are slotted and what levels of recharge each would have. Basically says Brutes just top Scrappers in a relatively normal build, but only by 3%. Given that Brutes have to work pretty hard to maintain that (especially on some teams) that's pretty good for Scrappers.
There is also another high-recharge comparision thread here but that's a bit less useful to normal day-to-day builds (but probably useful to anyone trying to make an AV beating heavily IOed build).
Shannon, I think you are overcomplicating a relatively simple issue.
Of course you can tip the scales by having one of the two equipped with vastly superiour enhancements, giving one of them inspirations and the other not (although that is completely insignificant in the long run since statistically both should find the same inspirations given enough test time) or by letting a pacifist on valium compete against a furylocked madman. But all that does is make your test worthless for any kind of evaluation that is worth its salt. A top player with all the IOs he could wish for can outdamge a bad player with only SOs almost regardless of ATs and powersets used. Putting those two in control of toons that are already quite close makes no sense unless your goal is to utterly humiliate the bad player.
Everything else being equal (or as you said pound for pound) the dark brute will always outdamage the dark scrapper unless you somehow keep the brute from building and maintaining fury which can happen by serious lack of competence on the player's part or by imposing unnatural limitations (e.g. enforcing unneeded breaks or prohibiting specific powers or enhancements of SO level or better).
This is doubly true if you put both in teams with lots of damage buffs due to the considerably higher damage cap of the brute. (A damage-capped brute is a sight to behold. The carnage is hilarious. )
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
Going back to rage for a second is there any point to having it perma or even stacking?
Surly the debuffs applied when it drops mean you loose a huge chunk of the second rages damage boost?
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Going back to rage for a second is there any point to having it perma or even stacking?
Surly the debuffs applied when it drops mean you loose a huge chunk of the second rages damage boost?
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It is only 10 seconds, where rage lasts 2 minutes afaik. So the chunk is rather small.
With enough recharge you can even stack it for a considerable long time, giving you an even greater boost to damage/accuracy.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
In reading your post Sitriel I think that you've misinterpreted mine by perhaps merging paragraphs together I don't know. There was no need to try and tip any scale between the two ATs although sometimes they will be tipped and so it does make a difference. To clarify:
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Either way on heroic setting you can often expect either to hold off either group on their own and its simply a good idea to use powers that can get you aggro around the one most likely to keep it from you as a support character. Which could lead in DPS depends on the player, their powersets and insp tray.
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What I meant by this was that on a heroic setting you could often expect a Brute or a Scrapper to solo a group designed for an 8 man team through means at their disposal.
So when given 2 groups close to eachother, and by close, I mean someone could AoE one group and effect members of the other group in the process with a large rad aoe. Rather than have the team fighting 2 groups, you could have either the Brute or Scrapper taking the fight to the extra group rather than the extra group taking an instant dislike to whoever used that AoE and then the team.
I believe that Scrapper lead in DPS hero-side and Brutes should lead in it villain-side. When given 2 groups that can be simultaneously pulled the Brute should be in the harder one, and the Scrapper in the not so harder one as groups can differ in size, position and make up, or for them to do whatever one they're best suited for.
Given 2 groups in close proximity I don't believe that the Scrapper should say "I will leave them and hope they don't get pulled. Hopefully they won't see anyone and then its better for the Brute who can maintain fury on them after". One Brutes fury is not as important as a member of the team say a dominator getting attacked because they fell foul to a perception check or because their 30ft radius roots happened to hit one. A scrapper/tanker is perfectly in his/her right to lead a charge into another pullable group, and as I said, on heroic level you can often expect them to survive, through their super build or insp tray.
When it comes to who can do the most damage over time it does imo blur. I do not expect even the most min/maxxed dark melee brute to outdamage even the most min/maxxed scrapper even if they were hitting a 0 defense attack dummy and this is partly because of secondaries. A Dark Melee/Shield scrapper is imo more likely to dish more damage over time than a Dark Melee/Willpower with the unlikelihood of the brute passing the 500% damage cap for scrappers, which is unlikely.
As it is I believe in Brutes taking alphas but still the other ATs are well within their rights to jump into that other group. You can't afford to wait for a Brute all the time and you shouldn't have to.
Some people are just too fixated on a team dynamic, I would not have a tank not trash another group first whilst its trashing another member of the team for the sake of some Brutes fury.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I think you are still overcomplicating things.
First of all I would not say that scrappers lead in dps hero-side. Depending on team size and setup blasters with their per average(!) higher AoE potential take that prize. Likewise brutes can easily lose that dps leading spot if the team setup is not in their favour. You know our TT all-corruptor team and you know that a brute would not even add any significant damage output due to how that team operates.
Secondly I do not think that it makes sense if - in the situation you describe - the scrapper takes one group and the brute takes the other. By dividing your forces in such a way you are invariably hurting the team`s total dps. If they are so close to each other the best thing you can do is pull them both toghether in one spot. If brute and scrapper can work together in that task to make it quicker all the better. Do not defend yourself against two groups when you can attack them both at once! Never met a situation where the latter was not possible.
Have I already mentioned how I loathe people breaking away from the team to do their own spawn with the lame excuse of helping the team doing it? That's the reason why.
This is a game with many possibilities to keep even accidential mid-fight pulls under control. And if the one taking control of the situation is somebody who can grab aggro there is no good reason not to add those mobs to the "main fight" rather than take them on alone... if for any reason the team is slow enough that there still is a main fight by the time the add is under control, that is.
And from then on your point becomes blurry rather than the question who can do the most damage over time.
Why are you still assuming that brutes and scrappers necessarily have to use different secondaries? Do not brutes have access to the shield secondary, too? So, if you want to compare AT A against AT B you want to make both of them use the same powersets if possible. Otherwise you end up comparing their secondary powersets for their damage potential instead. This would equal a statistical trick to "prove" something that is just not true, but I think you want the real numbers and not produce a hoax. Why do you give the scrapper the shield secondary and the brute willpower and not the other way round if not to skew the numbers?
Then to your next assumption: You think it is unlikely for a brute to pass the 500% damage cap for scrappers? We were talking about a "team of 8" situation, so you can safely assume that there is nice chance of the brute doing just that. (Of course this is more difficult if people rather do their own spawn than work together. 
) It even happens sometimes that we see the damage bonus turn blue in our combat attributes. Good times!
And people waiting for the brute? Heck, you should have told me that we are talking about sub-standard PUG style groups here! If the group has at any point to wait for the brute either they or the brute surely do not know what they are doing. Again, this has nothing to do with the damage potential of either brutes or scrappers.
And what you describe as people too fixated on team dynamic I call people not knowing **** about team dynamics. Nothing hurts team dynamics more than any member of a team not going full throttle, especially if we have team members that profit from nonstop action like brutes, blasters and dominators. Waiting during a fight for any somehow occupied member of a team to take over a situation you could handle is wasting time.
However, this also is more about people acting dumb than about who does more dps. No AT has so much dps that other ATs have any reason to not add theirs if they can.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
If another group sees a squishy member of the team and kills them then that cuts the teams damage output. We are talking about another group thats not only in perception range but within range of an aoe. With no pulling going on, and everyone having their own aggro cap then the other group starting on the team can happen. Its a mini death room.
You can't always sit back and wait and see if a group that's in perception range perception checks anyone and then takes them out. It could be the debuffer. It could be the buffer (heals perhaps), the dominator who cuts enemy dps down..and when it comes to adding additional groups to the main fight then that is something a scrapper or brute with a taunt aura is best at doing, providing the dom say don't aoe immob them apart. If your on a scrapper without a taunt aura and you find out the brute who has an aura is transfixed on whatever he is doing, then you have to submit to something, mainly that in the real world people don't play to other peoples expectations nor can you play other peoples characters for them, you make do and learn from it. It is sometimes better to go for the odds that are within your limits and be ready to solely count on those odds.
I did the Mothership Raid the other day, on the scrapper with 3 other scrappers and that was it, no one else around. I was first in the middle, cleaning up basically, fighting my aggro cap for quite sometime, which was until the next teleporters arrived and still fighting all the time until the shields returned. I did not die at all, there was not enough to defeat her so to expect her to trash a nearby group alone is not something I will go "oh, no can do". To expect a Brute and the rest of the team to handle the other group is a given, to expect a Brute with a aura to pull the group they were in to the group I was keeping from randomly selecting a squishie is something one might expect but what the other player does is down to them.
I don't understand why people think that attacking another group that is within 40ft away and with a perception of 50ft is somehow splitting the team. I can go in that room with someone who has Surveillance to verify the perception range and use me as a waypoint to verify that, that group was pull-able by anyone and by being anyone, ergo not safe.
My main beef with ppl in the game is they stick to a set of rules and can't think out of the box, hence either the generic team make ups or they have to make special designer teams based on efficiency rather than concept to play the game with all the hardships of mowing the lawn.
In ones own minds eye its better to bend the rules depending on the power choices of the players in the team that you are in, than follow rules that are made for a team make up that you're not even in.
I've often come across people best suited for a team that plays in a certain way and do build toons that are in fact experimenting with that. They may not perform with some teams and their dynamics but they can really perform in other teams and playing to a different dynamic. Concept wins at the end of the day and its simply a case of playing to and getting to play to (team allowing) ones own strengths.
If I was on the Brute I wouldn't of gone right, to the right was a group that didn't have to be done, to the middle was a bigger group that could of been pulled left, left where the exit was that we needed to leave the room by and comfortably, providing they weren't immob'd which as you know in PuGs is possible. Yes team waiting on Brute. In fact for most of the mission upto that point the Brute wasn't even in the mission and that group was his very first. I wasn't going to sit around and find anything out.
Naturally, generally on average scrappers outright own in DPS inclusive of aoe's. It would take buffs for blasters to compete and not just in terms of having the survivability to compete. We did the numbers in 2007, people came up with attack chains etc. I took microsoft excel to it, people were still looking at it from a brawl index point of view screwing up how they read the figures. Blasters effectively got mullered, however with the newer sets of Psi and Mental I would dare say that perhaps the blaster can average differently but still not compete with a scrapper. Generally Blasters may burst better than scrappers but they don't compete in the damage over time department. Comparing a MA/Inv to a Fire/Mental as some people might is not going to give a real picture, you have to compare all sets - which is why I took it to excel.
I've aggro capped and done some farm missions with Brutes, getting congalines going with Shields and Superstrength, on their own I know what kind of level of damage they can hit and I know that with buffs and debuffs what they can effectively hit, but this wasn't one of those teams where they were going to even achieve any of that. In fact unless the Brute merged its group with mine his fury wasn't going to be that hot as it was for some reason he didn't. There was a dom in the team too which can be counterproductive to fury.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
So, long story short, you are basing your whole point on a brute player who was definitely not able to play his toon efficiently (in a team that obviously was not all that good either).
But what this very special situation has to do with the quite general question if dark scrappers outdamage dark brutes (which they don't) is several miles beyond me.
Likewise, what single target dps or rather the exclusion of AoE dps have to do with the situation you described with enemy groups for a team of eight players... it just makes no sense. I can not even say where you want to go from there because you are pointing in one direction (or several actually) while running off in a randomly different one.
First it is about dark melee for scrappers and brutes and suddenly the question which one is better is influenced by scrappers doing Rikti shipraids and certain people not liking concepts builds? Sorry, you definitely lost me there. No more coffee for you, lady!
Aaand...
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I don't understand why people think that attacking another group that is within 40ft away and with a perception of 50ft is somehow splitting the team. I can go in that room with someone who has Surveillance to verify the perception range and use me as a waypoint to verify that, that group was pull-able by anyone and by being anyone, ergo not safe.
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On the danger of repeating myself because I never suggested anything resembling leaving the second group unchecked but rather the opposite: If those two groups are actually that close to each other why is it so difficult to pull the second group onto the first and defeat both of them in one go as a team? Either you have their aggro, in which case that should be easy to accomplish, or you do not, in which case aggro will spread to other (maybe squishier) team members anyway.
I does not frikkin matter if your dps is higher or the brutes. The total team dps with AoE damage, buffs and debuffs concentrated on one spot is invariably higher than both of yours.
The only excuse I am willing to take is if the enemies are ranged mobs on an open map with no corners or other obstacles to break line of sight to actually pull them anywhere without losing aggro in the process.
Team dynamics is called team dynamics because it is about the perfomance of the team and not about the size and hardnes of single members' testicles.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
Amusing thread. Keep it up!
Hehe, I am trying my best. Shannon is great, but sometimes she tends to nova Rikti monkeys... figuratively speaking.
I think it has something to do with the somewhat selective perception of numbers. For example, looking at scrappers vs. blasters from an AoE point of view one could argue that scrappers outdamage blasters if both hit the same number of targets... but how realistic is that? The average blaster ranged AoE has roughly double the radius (15) of the average scrapper AoE (8) which means that it will, also per average, hit roughly four times as many targets in a normal team PvE combat situation. And scrappers' damage modifier is by no means that much higher.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
To the post just above, yes, what typically happens in game may bend your perception to saying that blasters by hitting spread mobs will hit more numbers and have higher dam output but its not potential.
Quite frankly in your defense, I should go back over things taking into account new defiance.
Anyway I was on my DualBlades/Willpower the other day and she was diligently following the tanker in and basically the type of enemy wasn't one of those that collapse in (practically go straight to melee). Despite no immobs or control my DB/WP was underperforming in getting her maximum DPS out. I could of changed the dynamic to do otherwise but people may not enjoy that dynamic as it'll involve me shooting off early and herding everywhere and the tank not being the point he was. Add to that the mobs were too low to even bother. So not in all circumstances, and as no one circumstance or one persons perception, on the game is a model for all, I look at potential. People can argue with me from the point of view of what they achieve or see achieved if they like but I look at potential as an AT on its own. I believe she should do very well in terms of dps on the Eden trial but perhaps not making her way upto Babbage in the mish.
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So, long story short, you are basing your whole point on a brute player who was definitely not able to play his toon efficiently (in a team that obviously was not all that good either).
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No upto that point in the mission he had been afk. Whether or not he warmed into the role after is another matter.
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But what this very special situation has to do with the quite general question if dark scrappers outdamage dark brutes (which they don't) is several miles beyond me.
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If you read what I was replying to it may not be so several miles beyond you. This is why now I am resorting to quoting. It looks like tearing a post apart but what the hey.
Scrappers lead in DPS. Brutes lead in DPS villain side although its better to suck an alpha to compete with scrappers in the first group. With an average 85% - 90% fury I don't think it's always fair for scrappers to have to wait for a brute to suck up an alpha. If the scrapper has to slow down then its all a bit counterproductive.
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Likewise, what single target dps or rather the exclusion of AoE dps have to do with the situation you described with enemy groups for a team of eight players... it just makes no sense. I can not even say where you want to go from there because you are pointing in one direction (or several actually) while running off in a randomly different one.
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Quote me somewhere and use that reply because I don't quite follow where I've included ST DPS and excluded AoE DPS. I remember writing "inclusive of aoes" especially as I can see that I did.
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First it is about dark melee for scrappers and brutes and suddenly the question which one is better is influenced by scrappers doing Rikti shipraids and certain people not liking concepts builds? Sorry, you definitely lost me there. No more coffee for you, lady!
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The whole mention of the Mothership was to back up the idea of scrappers soloing their own group if they feel its necessary, and being expected to handle the group themselves. I got accused of splitting the team when it was fine in any other team I've been in. In our all corrupter team I have followed the point into an ambush. They passed a left turn to fight what was further ahead and as I came passed it I got alpha'd. Now if my Scrapper could of been there she would of handled that group lovely.
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On the danger of repeating myself because I never suggested anything resembling leaving the second group unchecked but rather the opposite: If those two groups are actually that close to each other why is it so difficult to pull the second group onto the first and defeat both of them in one go as a team? Either you have their aggro, in which case that should be easy to accomplish, or you do not, in which case aggro will spread to other (maybe squishier) team members anyway.
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I couldn't do the pulling as I was on a SR and without a taunt aura one can't guarantee any transferring of mobs without some of those mobs finding someone else. There was no need to repeat yaself as I am sure I said that had I been on the Brute I would of acted to pull the groups together although the AoE immob that someone laid down would of prevented it..
You can't play other peoples toons, so you never always quite get what you was hoping for from people but with so many different dynamics that people can be used to, a mix of the wrong ones can lead to disappointment. But its alright as you should then establish how people work together and your limitations in a team and it shouldn't still mean that a scrapper/tanker can't enter a group until a brute does. Yes its better if a Brute takes the alpha but there will be times when you don't have time for it, why people stick to some rule for every occasion I dunno.
I've never nova'd rikti's in my life. I realize by that you know they collapse in as I like to put it but one can shoot off and cause mobs to tighten up fast if needed. On average scrapper AoE should be of better dam per end and faster rechg compensating for aoe size and max targets iirc.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Having started terrorising St Martial with my SS/WP brute and finding it great fun handing out random, unjustified and somewhat violent beatings to all things Arachnos, I currently have Hasten and have 3 rechrdx SOs in Rage and it is close to perma.
However, is it possible to obtain the glory that is perma-rage without Hasten AND without spending billions on inf?
Any advice appreciated
Golden-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Fire/Fire Tank
Oodja Nikabolokov - Lvl 50 SS/WP Brute
Baby-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Peacebringer
How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could Chuck Norris?