Re: Issue 15 Mission Architect Badge Changes

Forsaken_Empire_EU · 05-27-2009 10:52 PM

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I wanted to chime in here with some thoughts and reasoning behind the decision to remove badges that we originally put into the game:

Players feeling like they have to farm for badges has always been an issue with me. When we created the badge system, we wanted some "top tier" badges that players could eventually earn over a long period of time through normal play.

One of the mistakes we made, way back when, was we didn't realize that there would be a "gotta have 'em all, and gotta have 'em now!" attitude. We figured it would be the former, but not the latter. Live and learn.

So players went and did everything they could to get the "long period of time" badges as quickly as possible. So we upped the numbers. THIS was a mistake as it only exasperated the problem instead of fixing it. Now players just farmed longer, and more specifically. (I am looking at you, Epic Tier Badges).

/sigh

Admittedly "count" badges are the easiest to design. You figure out what you want to count, then design a series of badges around progressively higher numbers of those counts. This is why we never abandoned them in the past, when we probably should have.

As we rolled into Mission Architect we all sat in a room and discussed what kinds of badges we wanted to include. Since we wanted to encourage playing MA more than a couple times, count badges related to MA were included in the original design. We specifically set out to prevent some types of farming that MA could allow. This is why we don't allow non-MA badge progress to be earned while in MA. It would make some badges trivial (or even possible in some cross-faction cases) to get.

Now, I was aware that absurdly high numbers give the feeling of needing to farm. I was even OK with this for Test Missions as that wasn't a mission that would be seen by the general population in the Mission Architect list. I did sit down and several times went over the numbers on the published MA badges and lowered and lowered and lowered them until I thought we were at a level that was so low that everyone could get these through normal play and rather quickly too.

I admit, I was wrong. Farms for some MA badges quickly appeared, and those farms sat alongside the other farms (XP and ticket) in the Story Arc list for MA. The search feature we had implemented for the MA quickly became clogged with a large number of missions expressly for farming, obscuring the stories that players had worked hard to polish and present to the community.

So I re-looked at badges, the system as a whole, for really the first time since they were implemented. While implementing them, I've always been focused on the Issue at hand, not at the system as a whole. With Synapse now in charge of the actual implementation I had a chance to look back and see the big picture.

I realized that we could still have badges for doing interesting things, for doing difficult things, and for reaching certain milestones. What was bad were badges that encouraged gaming the system to achieve them.

So we looked at the list of badges in Mission Architect, and cut anything that encouraged the establishing of a farm to achieve them. This included the count badges which was nearly 4/5ths of the list of badges.

Now this was not a decision that was made lightly. We knew that this would make a lot of people angry, the people who legitimately earned those badges through hard work, but these were our choices:

(A) Leave everything alone.
(B) Stop giving out the badges, but let the people who earned them keep them.
(C) Remove the badges.

A) doesn't do anything to remedy the situation. Mission Architect would continue to be farmed for badges from now to end of time, and eventually it loses its appeal as a story telling device and just becomes a place where someone goes to get their badges.

B) Creates a "haves" and "have nots" situation. Were you able to get the badges before I15? If not, then no badge for you, ever. If so, congrats! You will now forever have dozens of badges that are no longer attainable in the game. This situation is very unfair, and we did not feel that it would be the right thing to do to the community. Maybe I had all the badges this time, but what about next time something like this happens? Why does Awesome Man get to keep badges that no one else can even get, doing the exact same things?

The only badges that should act this way are the Anniversary ones. Now, I am going to talk to Synapse about making these "account wide" if possible, so new characters on your account can get them as well. It might not be possible, so I am not promising anything.

C) Really was the best option. It levels the playing field. Yes it is not going to be the most popular decision, we are literally removing content from the game. Yes, people are losing hard work in attaining some badges. In the long run I believe that this decision is the best for Mission Architect and the best for City of Heroes as a whole going forward.

So there you have it. If you guys want to be mad at someone, be mad at me. In my efforts to make the game fun and exciting in the long term. I sometimes have to make decisions that make players unhappy, and for that I apologize. We are working hard to avoid these kinds of situations in the future, and will work hard to avoid the kinds of situations that lead to badge removal in future releases. I also want to assure you that we will not be going back and removing badges introduced previous to I14. Some of those badges are truly an accomplishment to get, and we will not take away from those that have accomplished such a task nor will we remove the ability for future players to aspire to those same heights.

--------------------
Positron
Lead Designer, City of Heroes

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Re: Issue 15 Mission Architect Badge Changes

Judgement_Dave · 05-28-2009 03:30 AM

Thanks for the repost, Forsaken_Empire.
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but these were our choices:

(A) Leave everything alone.
(B) Stop giving out the badges, but let the people who earned them keep them.
(C) Remove the badges.

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That's reminiscient of when Blackadder sees the wisewoman and she basically says that the options are:
(A) Kill Bob
(B) Kill Himself
(C) Kill Everyone else in the whole world

There were other options available (such as merely changing the numbers required so farming wasn't perceived to be required or stopping badge farms and punishing those repeatedly publishing them).

It's probable that, even if quickly dismissed, other options were considered and Posi is only mentioning the 3 options for brevity. But, in that case, he'd do better to at least indicate that other options had been considered and dismissed.

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Why does Awesome Man get to keep badges that no one else can even get, doing the exact same things?
The only badges that should act this way are the Anniversary ones.

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If the only badges that should act this way are anniversary ones then it looks like either:
a) Passport is being removed;
b) A new way to gain Passport is being introduced;
or
c) Posi forgot about Passport!

I guess (c)

By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)

LunaWisp · 05-28-2009 04:51 AM

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Were you able to get the badges before I15? If not, then no badge for you, ever. If so, congrats! You will now forever have dozens of badges that are no longer attainable in the game. This situation is very unfair, and we did not feel that it would be the right thing to do to the community.

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He's having a flamin laugh!!! They did exactly that with the villian only badges that some heroes managed to get. They got to keep those badges that the rest of us can never obtain. The rules seem to change from month to month. Can we have some consistency here please...

Blue Rabbit · 05-28-2009 06:55 AM

@Calamity: those are/will be removed as soon as I15 hits live.

@the rest: LOLz

As I said before: never mind adjusting numbers, it's easier to remove the whole caboodle, you guys already served your purpose in making it seem the MA attracts lots of players, now here's a kick in the 'nads and bugger off!

You won't revisit the old badges, not even the epic tier ones. So it's ok to farm and grind badges, just not in the MA. I get your message: we want you to keep paying your subs while you try to get badges set at ridiculous high levels through regular play. Oh, no, that's not grinding/farming... it just appears to be. It's an "achievement". My main hero has never farmed for any of those badges, he was created on the day I registered here (that's 45 months ago) and he still isn't even close to getting any of the following: Unbreakable, Nigh Indestructible, Invulnerable, Immortal, Medical Specialist, Medicine, Man/Medicine Woman, Empath, Confined, Caged, Jailed, Popular and Leader. He has all the others though. The same goes for my Villain. There are a lot of players who have them all but they expressively farmed for them. But hey, no problem there, it's not the MA.
I still argue for all of those high level badges to be removed, supported by your line of reasoning for removing the MA ones and because what's good for the geese is good for the gander (since adjusting numbers doesn't appear to be an option).

We want everyone to access all the badges with the exception of the Anniversary badges. I can understand that, but please do not lump everything in the same basket. Because if you do, by that same logic, option b) shouldn't have presented you with any problems (and for the record I wouldn't support that option either). And all the event badges shouldn't also be attainable any more.

I also know that arguing against this is much like trying to demolish a mountain with a wet noodle. But I have to get it off my chest. It's a pity I just paid for another 6 months of CoX (wahey!) and there's no other MMO out there I'd like to play at the moment... think I need a break or a definite change of scenery.

Adjust, do not remove. Nothing is ever black or white, there are myriad shades of grey.

Rabbits & Hares:Blue (Mind/Emp Controller)Maroon (Rad/Thermal Corruptor)and one of each AT all at 50
MA Arcs: Apples of Contention - 3184; Zen & Relaxation - 35392; Tears of Leviathan - 121733 | All posts are rated "R" for "R-r-rrrrr, baby!"|Now, and this is very important... do you want a hug? COH Faces @Blue Rabbit

Fruit Cocktail · 05-28-2009 07:04 AM

But Rabbit, I understand your point but if the badges are 1 click, 10 clickies, 1000 clickies, 100000 clickies same wit defeats and all. Is not an adjustement to remove the badges with the most numbers?

Besides the farms on MA do affect us more than the farm in the old game, since the architech is full of rubbish missions made to be easy-rewarded wich obscure the missions made by love.

Having said all that, you're sooo right to be angry and that the others outside MA badges need to be checked. I'll be angry too if I had gotten the badges and then haved removed.

Conclusion: devs need to think more before implementings things

Proud member of Blaze of the Immortals (Heroes) and leader of F.O.E (villains)

Heroes:
Plumber, Ice Desert Girl, Doc Goodheart, Banana Machoman, Pavattone, Penguin Shark, Sting like a Bee

Villains:
Bricklayer, Savage Dentist, Fruit Cocktail, H. Yashida, Shesinellek

LunaWisp · 05-28-2009 07:06 AM

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@Calamity: those are/will be removed as soon as I15 hits live.

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*sigh* Its getting hard to keep up with all the updates, not that I'm complaining about *that*

I thought this problem has arisen before I14 which is his cutoff (he said), oh well, we'll have to wait and see.

Knight_Errant · 05-28-2009 07:07 AM

Seems to me like they just got carried away with making badges for anything they could possibly add a counter to. Now, after the dust has settled it's dawned on them that they went waaay to far. To be honest I'm not fussed with this revoking of the more superfluous MA badges.

Lord_Digital · 05-28-2009 11:33 AM

I agree with Calamity, there's new rules every bloody weekend its getting to be a joke. I would that from now on they sit down and THINK IT THROUGH that way then no-one gets penalized and no-one gets upset, surely its not that hard to think about these things beforehand. Another thing so wot if some peeps farm for badges its a good way for peeps to team up and do something fun.

TrueMetal · 05-28-2009 01:42 PM

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that way then no-one gets penalized and no-one gets upset

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Yea sure ... if there wasn't anything to get upset about I'm sure some people would manage to get upset at the lack of things to get upset about . No matter what you do people always will get upset, as these forums have proven countless of times.

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Another thing so wot if some peeps farm for badges its a good way for peeps to team up and do something fun.

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The problem is that the gazillion of farming missions (of any types, not just badge farms) are clogging up the system, making it harder for people who want to use the MA for what it's designed for to find anything worthwhile.
And if all you care about 'teaming up and do something fun' you can do that too in regular missions.

No, I'm not just another farm hater. I don't care about it either way. But I do have a problem with it when it interrupts with regular play or makes use of obvious exploits or rule bending like most of the MA farms have been doing.
And yes I am a badgehunter and my main villain will lose a slew of badges because of this, dropping back below the 500 badges mark ( ).

Also I don't see how keeping all the badges but just lowering the numbers would have been any kind of solution. People WILL keep farming them no matter how low the values are, right up untill the point where the values would be so low that you would be able to get all the badges in a couple of arcs. Earning 100+ badges in a couple of hours might seem fun to some, but I really don't see the point.

It was a mistake to add so many 'farmable' badges to the MA, I feared that right at the release of I14. But what's done is done, the devs have learned a lesson and imo they solved it in the best way that was possible.

Still sucks to lose some of those badge titles though ...

@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.

Lord Mayhem · 05-28-2009 02:08 PM

I really hope these changes do re-focus MA content towards what it should always have been about - telling stories - not farming for shinies.

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I also want to assure you that we will not be going back and removing badges introduced previous to I14. Some of those badges are truly an accomplishment to get, and we will not take away from those that have accomplished such a task nor will we remove the ability for future players to aspire to those same heights.

--------------------
Positron
Lead Designer, City of Heroes

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Re: Issue 15 Mission Architect Badge Changes

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I guess that means Unbreakable and Illusionist won't be getting changed? It's pretty ridiculous that farming is encouraged/necessary to getting those badges, for the Accolade powers they are needed for, when the equivalent accolade is so much easier to get on the opposite side.

Sure, some badges should be difficult to get - like MoLRSF and MoSTF - and maybe there is a place for some of the epic count badges that take ages to get, providing they exist purely for the sake of getting the badge itself, just for those totally obsessive badgers who want them purely because they take so long to get, for the kudos and bragging rights - but using such badges to gate access to powers that lots of players will want, in a game as casual as this one, is just wrong imho.

Londoner · 05-28-2009 02:38 PM

How about everyone just gets on and plays the poxy game how they want.

Not everyone wants to be a creative genius, some people just want to use the MA as a change from the same old same old content, to level a char.

Because lets have it right here, me and most of the people i know in this game play it to level.

If you keep knocking bits out of this MA in persuit of some purist creative vision, it aint gonna happen, your gonna have 6 people left using it.

Judgement_Dave · 05-28-2009 02:46 PM

The odd thing is that the introduction of the improved search and keywords in I15 could probably have been used to allow 'badge farm' missions to exist in their own category - and so have minimal (or at least greatly reduced) impact on people looking for story content.

Pretty sure that that could have been used to present a solution that was seen as giving/improving MA for all rather than being seen in an adverse light by anyone.

By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)

Cynic · 05-28-2009 03:06 PM

You have the 1billion inf badge? I've been trying to get that on one character and am only about 60% of the way there

"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"

Blue Rabbit · 05-28-2009 05:27 PM

This is you:
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You have the 1billion inf badge? I've been trying to get that on one character and am only about 60% of the way there

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This is me:
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he still isn't even close to getting any of the following: Unbreakable, Nigh Indestructible, Invulnerable, Immortal, Medical Specialist, Medicine, Man/Medicine Woman, Empath, Confined, Caged, Jailed, Popular and Leader.

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Rabbits & Hares:Blue (Mind/Emp Controller)Maroon (Rad/Thermal Corruptor)and one of each AT all at 50
MA Arcs: Apples of Contention - 3184; Zen & Relaxation - 35392; Tears of Leviathan - 121733 | All posts are rated "R" for "R-r-rrrrr, baby!"|Now, and this is very important... do you want a hug? COH Faces @Blue Rabbit

Cynic · 05-28-2009 06:08 PM

Ah, missed that in the list, sorry. I just want my Spine Invul to be popular

"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"

Golden Girl · 05-28-2009 06:39 PM

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Ah, missed that in the list, sorry. I just want my Spine Invul to be popular

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I'm like 75% done for Leader - but as the MA doesn't give Inf badge credits, my progress has kinda slowed down since I14 came out

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

Bovine_Avenger · 05-28-2009 08:20 PM

The public relations nightmare continues, I see... And although all the arguments have been rehashed to death, let me just add one more perspective to the pile; The thing about the MA and badges was not that it was particularly farmable as a process, but that from the past experience of badgers, it wasn't all that NOTICEABLY bad in comparative terms from within the game world to what we've done before.

Here's some context; here's the current Union list of badgers;

http://www.badge-hunter.com/players....r=11&sort=

Notice how high my main character is? But now click on his profile, and look at the badges I don't have;

I don't have any of the usual epics. Virtually none of the healing badges. Quite a lot of the anniversay badges missing... and only half of the possible played time taken, only 24 of 60 month awards. And yet 108 of 116 of architect badges, despite not logging Bovine in for weeks now.

Why am I mentioning this? The point is two fold; firstly, there aren't actually all that many truly dedicated badgers around; the numbers who actually sit down and farm on the Epic scales required are relatively very, very small. Think about it; I'm ranked 9th, and I've never bothered to sit down and leave myself damage farming overnight, let alone using the Medicine pool to heal and heal and heal. So is it really that much of a problem that there's perhaps 2 or 3 people in total (who aren't Sal) who actually have?

And secondly, those MA badges. The only ones I'm missing are the truly grindtastic ones; Test Kills and Hall of Fame. And the virtual tickets, but that's because they were bugged in large teams until recently. And of those, only Test Kills was in any way one that required a noticeable grind... but even that, with the right missions, can be done in about 50 runs through. EVERYTHING ELSE I had within a few days of largely casual play. I've just not been all that bothered to do it. And I'd likewise have done more of the HoF too if the only (so far) HoF wasn't being griefed so it wasn't up often, and wasn't so colossally boring and over-hyped on repeated play throughs; Thus compared to the Influence etc badges, how on earth were we supposed to realize that what we were doing was aberrant? Compared to normal high end badging (which as mentioned, isn't even that common) the MA badges were like free candy falling from the sky; 100+ badges in a week or two just didn't seem all that onerous a trial at the time compared to what's been in game for years.

I'm not saying that the whole MA circus hasn't worked out quite shabbily, but this constant confusion about the role of badgers is quite depressing to be honest. How can the developers be so ignorant of both the size of, and nature of a community they've been developing for so many years? I'm truly sorry for all of those expecting better of the community and it's content. And again I speak with experience; since I took the tag "BHMA" off my arc two weeks ago, it's not been played ONCE... so I'm sure it's impossible for people who don't have my connections in game, or my backlog of BHMA ratings noticed at all. I'm sure there are some gems languishing amongst a sea of dross, of course I am. But that's not going to change without a serious overhaul of the entire system... A MA wide ratings reset? Or even complete ratings removal? There's going to be no easy answer... and the more I hear of their thoughts, the more I'm convinced the Dev Team don't yet have a consistent understanding of their player base, let alone a plan they'd be able to realistically apply to sort it all out.

Judgement_Dave · 05-29-2009 07:15 AM

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there aren't actually all that many truly dedicated badgers around; the numbers who actually sit down and farm on the Epic scales required are relatively very, very small. Think about it; I'm ranked 9th, and I've never bothered to sit down and leave myself damage farming overnight, let alone using the Medicine pool to heal and heal and heal. So is it really that much of a problem that there's perhaps 2 or 3 people in total (who aren't Sal) who actually have?

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It may be because you're looking at a tiny part of the playerbase that exists on an EU server. As with many changes it's probably lead by the behaviour of the larger US playerbase, which can often be somewhat different to EU behaviour*.

Heck just from the playerbase numbers, I guess we'd probably have an easily searchable MA-arc store if it we only saw EU players - we'd miss out on some great arcs from the US and the MA would be much poorer on both sides if it was region specific, but the EU would end up with a smaller store that wasn't too bad to search.

Of course, if MA was region specific we'd still be hit by the same changes to badges as the effects of farm missions in the US arc store would be just as bad as they are now.

* Instances of apparent behaviour differences that spring to mind include the US fondness for sewer runs and IIRC Hami still gets visitors in the US.

By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)

Bovine_Avenger · 05-29-2009 06:42 PM

Whilst I agree with you to some extent JD, the actual effort required to collect the specific badges from the MA will be exactly the same on both servers; It's not as if they get any harder to collect US side. So it doesn't effect my main point, which is that it's really not obviously aberrant, certainly not compared to the amount of game fiddling mechanics that still exist (PvP badges, sitting on event missions like Snaptooth). American or European, it's hard to see how we were supposed to feel dirty for badges that you could haul in within a week... not whilst they expect us to keep keys cellotaped down over night after night for epic badges... It's only the ratings one within the MA that actually needed a long term investment, and which distorted the intent of the MA to any great degree; every other badge could be collected within a week of focused play.