They work differently but statistically the effect is the about the same. Cognito did a nice guide in the user guide section a little while back. Main difference is that defense is more open to luck - you might get hit 10 times in a row and faceplant or that AV could miss you 10 times in a row instead. 
Resistance cap for tanks has been 90% as long as I've been about (unless I'm losing my memory with old age)
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Def: Don't bother, anything below 20% is hardly noticeable.
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So 10% defense is not worth it, even though you are taking 20% less damage? I seem to notice it on my dark tank.
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*sigh*
On a RESISTANCE BASED SET, it is hardly worth spending the millions in inf/endurance running needless toggles or on set bonuses.
I've only got between 10-20% def on my DA scrapper (unless stacking Melee Defence with Divining Avalanche), and It works a treat. But that's because Cloak of Darkness, Weave and Set bonuses go together nicely, on a Fire/ they do not.
Not wanting to start fights with anyone, but seems everyone wants to with me. Hope you feel satisfied ticking another one off your 'to argue with' quota
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maybe if I paraphrased the OP by saying 'this information is too advanced for me and I can't take it all in' or perhaps 'I know all this already and may apply it in my own time' then you might better understand where I think he was coming from.
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That i'll concede too.
I still remain adamant in that these boards, and most of the people that frequent them, will offer the *best* they can when looking at build critique, and it is up to the poster to digest the information how they want. Just re-read the opening page of this just so I wasn't running from memory. Even from the offset, Spirit_ said, 'that looks fine, what's the % rech on healing flames'.
Shouldn't this thread have ended there? Probably, but Spirit was asking to make sure everything else was intact while we were at it, and not giving a bunch of numbers (which in actuality, are rather pointless in CoX, if you don't have a clear grasp on certain other features in the set).
DB also said: Post a build like that in a public forum, expect people to want to help in tweaking it. It's not the forumite's responsibility, as such, to censor their desire to aid in perfecting a 'build'. If the OP/other posters have an issue with what they are being told, they best be sure to remember that they don't *have* to incorperate anything that's been said here
And as for emotional maturity, leave that for PMs mate. I jumped in here in an attempt to remind people that there were valid points regarding Fire/ tank's survivability here (i.e, it doesn't lie only in hard numbers), but I guess we broke Grice's Maxim of Quantity here and wanted to give *too much infromation* Next time guess we should respond to threads in as short a manner relating to the title as possible, and disregard anything else that will help the OP (Regardless of how poorly it's worded)
I'm sorry if you feel picked on but I rarely even post nowadays and certainly don't have a "'to argue with' quota". I simply asked if you thought taking 20% less damage was not worth it? If what you meant was it was not worth it in terms of inf/effort, then that's fine.
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I'm sorry if you feel picked on but I rarely even post nowadays and certainly don't have a "'to argue with' quota". I simply asked if you thought taking 20% less damage was not worth it? If what you meant was it was not worth it in terms of inf/effort, then that's fine.
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/end techyness
I did mean in terms of effort, considering the backlash of trying to offer an optimum build, spending gazillions on sets offering +Def would be the last thing i'd want to suggest
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Resistance cap for tanks has been 90% as long as I've been about (unless I'm losing my memory with old age)
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I have been know to be wrong, though i'm sure i'd seen it on a character planner nvm though it's not that huge a deal.
I think some posters are going off topic though talking about what their scrapper can do with dark armor and divine avalanche. I'm pretty sure tanks don't use the Katana. (not directed at you faultline by the way)
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Resistance cap for tanks has been 90% as long as I've been about (unless I'm losing my memory with old age)
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I have been know to be wrong, though i'm sure i'd seen it on a character planner nvm though it's not that huge a deal.
I think some posters are going off topic though talking about what their scrapper can do with dark armor and divine avalanche. I'm pretty sure tanks don't use the Katana. (not directed at you faultline by the way)
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Dark Armo(u)r is a scrapper and tanker based set (and Brute, and Stalker, for that matter). Showing that you've experience with one on one AT, does carry over somewhat when trying to make a point. But I doubt you bothered to consider that. Washing my hands of this [censored], if you've anything further to say, catch me ingame
I'm merely saying that although it works on your scrapper it's not something a tank is going to be capable of.
The theory can to a degree be ported over to a tank that has dual blades though. A bit of defence + weaken is nice mitigation, but if there's nothing else to stack with defence or -tohit wise then below 20% def on a tank wont be worth the cost in slots/end/inf
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They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
It can be ported somewhat by dual blades, but I was refering more to the fact that his scrapper is more intended for offtanking a single target or damage dealing. In which case what he's said isn't really that helpful to a tank as you don't just think about mitigation you also need reliability because you are the centre of attention.
Though I do agree on the last part, which is exactly what faultline was saying. On a tank below 20% isn't worth it.
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What values should a typical Tank be looking for both of these?
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Tanks don't come in a typical way. Typically whatever is in the box should be fine after decent slotting. Power pools aren't supposed to be chosen out of necessity but out of rounding your character out. Basic Builds lets say a Full Inv and Full SS has everything in the box thats enough for basic PvE and its just a matter of people within a team playing in a way that they can all handle things. If one wants extra def as a firetank to stack with a co players buffs then one can take it.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Indeed, at the end of the day its your choice. No one can make you take a route with your powers.
However if your personal adaptations go to far in a full team environment there are certain players out there who are liable to /kick or remeber your name and not invite you again to there teams, as annoying as that is you got to remeber its there game to. (note i dont do this but others do). Tho if your sticking to just u and ur mind/emp mate this shoudlnt affect you.
As an ill/storm today, nothing could please me more than some tank handclapping mobs out of freezing rain. I noted him as a handclapper, left the team politely after and merely got on another toon. Sometimes i may suggest i pull that heck of a frightening mob with people looking at me as if i am mad but thats with ppl i will look forward to playing with more efficiently with later. We all have to find ways to gel or just find another team.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
It's ok alot of people out there still can't grasp the idea of pulling. Knockbacks annoy the hell out of me also. Have you considered making a macro to let team mates know you're casting a power on a fixed location so they can avoid knocking mobs out of it?
I don't know what it is with some people. You make a good pull, everything gets cleaned up super-fast and safely and you'd think they may go "that works" and stick to it.
But no.
You have to respect that some people are trying to learn the game, experimenting. Also at times in doing something more efficient one may have someone bodge it on you (ie herd messers) and cause you to look stupid (ie die over a longer than expected fight duration or be less buffed by number of foes) . Sometimes I wonder if put the round peg in the round hole is too major of an instruction. On the cavern trial I have had to go as far as telling people how to click on the stupid stone XD
I make mistakes, we all make mistakes, the difference between a good player and a bad player is someone who doesn't learn from them.
If I have had to tell someone 3 times, then they really take the biscuit.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
It would seem most teams I've gotten invited to are just full of messer's. Everytime I've gone to pull to a corner, or around a door frame so we don't pull the 2nd group.
I mean its forgivable at low levels, but we're talking about people level 30+ that know you're trying to pull. Still the blaster throws out all their aoe's, the scrapper goes head first into the fray usually with PBAoE on and then the controller will lock them down in the biggest mess you've ever seen.
All of that makes me feel sorry for the healer, but these people that screw the whole thing up never seem to look at themselve's when it goes wrong and the group wipes. Instead they'll blame the tank and said healer 
I did laugh when you said "Sometimes I wonder if put the round peg in the round hole is too major of an instruction. On the cavern trial I have had to go as far as telling people how to click on the stupid stone XD" thats pretty bad.
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I make mistakes, we all make mistakes, the difference between a good player and a bad player is someone who doesn't learn from them.
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So true.
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You have to respect that some people are trying to learn the game, experimenting. Also at times in doing something more efficient one may have someone bodge it on you (ie herd messers) and cause you to look stupid (ie die over a longer than expected fight duration or be less buffed by number of foes) . Sometimes I wonder if put the round peg in the round hole is too major of an instruction. On the cavern trial I have had to go as far as telling people how to click on the stupid stone XD
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If someone is learning then what better way to learn than to listen to those who have done it, rather than ignore it and pretend the advice given is wrong. I have no problems with people who want to experiment, but HELL NO am I gonna team with someone who baltently ignores advice and screws over any chance of the team succeeding, and I think a lot of people would say the same.
Also can I ask what is the point of a tank, whose primary focus in a team is to hold aggro away from the rest of the team, having power choices (whirlwind for example) that screws up his ability to do that? 
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If someone is learning then what better way to learn than to listen to those who have done it, rather than ignore it and pretend the advice given is wrong. I have no problems with people who want to experiment, but HELL NO am I gonna team with someone who baltently ignores advice and screws over any chance of the team succeeding, and I think a lot of people would say the same.
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There is quite a difference between giving advice and telling them what to do. Or even more, wich i encountered this weekend, giving advice wich is wrong in the first place, but plain fromout his/her own 'perfect way' he learned.
If i have a blaster too trigger happy in my team, i slightly adjust my tank tactics and fire off a hold (epic) towards the mob he probably gonna hit, so i can take care of the rest. Once in a while i let it slip, so he learn from his mistakes.
If someone tells you 1000 times not to open the door because you opened it already 1000 times in the past, you still will open in just to find a huge punch in the face after opening it.
If you are a 'group pull finish em' style person, who are you to tell a tanker that works by the 'jump in and keep em busy' style, that he's doing it totaly wrong?
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some tanking tactics are questionable for example Taunting then proceeding to run back into your teamates causing them to take splash damage from AoE, Using mud pots and other taunt-auras as the only form of aggro or taking taunt but not slotting it has pretty much the same effect.
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If someone is learning then what better way to learn than to listen to those who have done it, rather than ignore it and pretend the advice given is wrong. I have no problems with people who want to experiment, but HELL NO am I gonna team with someone who baltently ignores advice and screws over any chance of the team succeeding, and I think a lot of people would say the same.
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I believe in heroes when teamed, having to work as a team and that doesn't mean throw in some random moves neither. I think there is a better comic book feel when heroes have to try to work together more than villains, every good hero needs a greater villain. I posted about Fantastic Four and Dr Doom, they worked together, one proposed an idea and they went for it using their different powers at the right moments to get the win. In teams its in ya go "Ka-Pow! Bam! Thwap! Wham!". I don't mind I go with flow a lot of the time unless I am not in a good mood and thats when I'd rather try to play my toons by design.
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Also can I ask what is the point of a tank, whose primary focus in a team is to hold aggro away from the rest of the team, having power choices (whirlwind for example) that screws up his ability to do that?
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Well if someone wants whirlwind they can have it. I came across a bubbler and basically if the powers had no use for him he didn't have it, now I think buffing other people to perform better or easier is making it easier on yaself but in PuGs you meet random people who look like they may of never seen a team before and if they haven't then no wonder, who can blame them for all that self focus? I have characters designed for specific things, to a point its either get to move a certain way or come across rubbish but unlike GW ya cant download one build to replace another.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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There is quite a difference between giving advice and telling them what to do. Or even more, wich i encountered this weekend, giving advice wich is wrong in the first place, but plain fromout his/her own 'perfect way' he learned.
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Some people are so used to speaking formally, the advice can be quick and in note form, sometimes its done so the team don't fail and sometimes its done out of caring for that player. I don't have time for essays. On timed trials, its a case of "Look just do as I say and ask why afterwards".
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If you are a 'group pull finish em' style person, who are you to tell a tanker that works by the 'jump in and keep em busy' style, that he's doing it totaly wrong?
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I is lost on how some people decide they are steamrollers and some pullers. Its best to just make a decision based on the group, room, number of groups, perception of the groups and what type of tank ya are. Invulns especially love getting a tight group but sometimes in getting the enemy to change from one damage type attack to another is so much better. The problem lies in people playing how they would alongside an icetank who loves mad recoveries with a stonetank.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
There's a difference between playstyles and the blatently silly.
What I have to ask you is Shannon, would you even consider playing a tank in a PvE based team that totally defies the whole purpose of a team tank?
I think the answer would be no, but I could be wrong.
But when advice is given from those with enough experience to rival the bible combined, personally I think they are slightly loopy, but its entirely their perogative ofc. But I can definately say, those who do team with a tank that doesn't do what a PvE team tank is supposed to do, especially if the team is relying on them, they aren't going to stay in team long due to the mass amount of debt and/or boredom. Seen it many a time in a PuG, and its not going to change now. Most people on this game will not develope a sense of compassion and patience of a saint when they are going nowhere fast in this particular situation.
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What I have to ask you is Shannon, would you even consider playing a tank in a PvE based team that totally defies the whole purpose of a team tank?
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No. I will get another toon. I have altitis. I only tank to play as a tank. As a defender, if I do not feel I can function in the team due to no one helping themselves by offering me what I need to help them through set up and dynamic I will go find another team or get on another toon. As a kin I can't heal someone who doesn't go near a heal aura. Tanks have same prob, you can't help people who don't play in a way that helps you help them.
I would not mind if a controller, scrapper, defender or even blaster sets the next group up well for a tank to intercept aggro just in time. They may save time. A tank maybe focused on making sure people are fine in the one group they're are on whilst someone skilled sets up the next without completely outpacing the team. That level of skill is rare and often you may find someone is trying to show that level of skill and your having to make what I would call a recovery, basically pull together a complete and utter mess of things that needn't of had to be. When I see a debuff zone I prefer to see everything in it, not 3 foes in it and 13+ foes outside of it, I'd rather see large groups go down at once than fight one over here, run over there fight him there, run back to so and so who needs saving. My footstomp costs me 13 endpoints approx, I could either do 170 damage to one foe with it or 1700 damage to group with it. But I think one should look at it as 1700 damage in 2 secs as opposed to 170 damage in 2 secs. For blasters and scrappers they can do so much more and stack it.
A herded group can sometimes be done a good 6 times quicker than a spread one. Whats slow about herding is how people herd an already herded group, then pull them past 2 decent herdpoints to get to a more obvious one, the group was already herded just by them being in a '30ft diameter' of each other so just steam roll it. There was a time when Invincibility was bugged and extra caution was taken but thats passed, but some people still play to that caution. I see a group together, run in and footstomp to get attention.
I'd pull a whole group if there could be too many groups involved, maybe get a sigh from someone who doesn't have the extra 60% perception, or a map up like I have and avoid the protracted fight that people/I don't have the endurance for.
Some people run forward, run round, run back, I just taunt, hide and wait cutting out all that but for the enemy to run back. People only need to stay out of enemy perception by being typically 60ft back from me (herdpoints should sometimes try to offer range), and wait for my best gauntlet or a centre up and a couple of seconds for the aura to tick and they're fine.
One mission, someone said herding takes too long, it does if you have to tell people anything, like stay 60 ft back, wait for footstomp or ready or from a tankers fault, not pull to the nearest herdpoint or they run in, run round, run to a place that takes forever to get to. In a missions I may herd once or twice as a tank, steam roll rest. I am more likely to pull to me more as a scrapper due to squishiness, tighter herded groups get killed quicker, more get debuffed and so there is more safety and less fight duration.
I will make mistakes, I will lose sleep over it, I probably don't forget them and I often resort to maths, new experiences come but when it comes to old experiences I like to not have to repeat them.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I thought defense worked differently to resistance. Meaning Resistance is the amount of damage reduction from incoming attack, Where as defense is taken per attack roll, each hit will either have a 10-20% chance of not hitting you.