I haven't yet started the Wolf Spider up yet but I would imagine there can be several types. I'd be either aiming for Huntsman with all Crab Pets and/or possibly a Tac OPs with Surveillance and Reinforcements. The Huntsmen with Rifle attacks and the Tac Ops with the Mace. The Tac ops is not so much executioner like because they have all the ranged mace attacks, team buffs and have to live without stealth and placate. I know its nice to go without the Bane or Crab stuff but not the pets!!
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I know there has been a lot of discussion on this on the US forums - one thing to note of course is that any dipping into the Crab line will give you the backpack, whereas a sly dip into the Bane line (such as for the superb lvl 1 passive armor) would not be visually obvious.
A real pure wolf spider is of course possible, but you would be missing out on some very useful and thematically unimposing powers (build up, bane armor, surveillance etc) - it would pretty much just be for bragging rights so to speak (and lots of space for pool powers!)
One thing I've been thinking about is a Bane with some of the Wolf ranged AoEs - between Venom Grenade, Heavy Burst and Frag Grenade, you have a good opener on groups, especially preceded by Surveillance (for a boss or some such) and build up, then you have the stealth and Bane melee attacks for decimating single targets - it's a very tight build of course, and the Bane's lesser defences makes the AoE opener risky in some situations, but it looks like it could offer some good versatility based on who you're fighting and who you're fighting with.
@Hakeswell
Union Ilservian, Evinlea
Defiant Expeditor, Hakeswell
Arc: 70119 Hellion Initiation
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A real pure wolf spider is of course possible, but you would be missing out on some very useful and thematically unimposing powers (build up, bane armor, surveillance etc) - it would pretty much just be for bragging rights so to speak (and lots of space for pool powers!)
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i was thinking the exact same thing as the bane armor upgrade is better than wolf 
does the US forums have builds?
Damn I forgot about the Crab Backpack..I won't want that then.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I've not really seen any Wolf-only builds, although they should be pretty easy to construct - just take everything!
As for my wolf/bane hybrid, I was thinking something along the lines of:
> 1 Bane Spider Armor
> 1 Bash
> 2 Combat Training: Defensive
> 4 Wolf Spider Armor
> 6 Build Up
> 8 Heavy Burst
> 10 Tactical Training: Maneuvers
> 12 Venom Grenade
> 14 Poisonous Ray
> 16 Pulverise
> 18 Shatter
> 20 Frag Grenade
> 22 Mental Training
> 24 Cloaking Device
> 26 Placate
> 28 Surveillance
> 30 Tactical Training: Leadership
> 32 Crowd Control
> 35 Swift
> 38 Call Reinforcements
> 41 Health
> 44 Stamina
> 47 Tactical Training: Assault
> 49 Leadership: Assault
At range you will be using the Wolf Spider rifle before pulling out your mace for Poisonous Ray and your melee attacks.
Solo and in large groups you would probably concentrate on single targets to avoid drawing too much aggro. In small to medium groups (or large groups that can bolster your mediocre defences) using your AoE attacks will be very satisfying, and you would still have your melee attacks for mopping up the leftovers.
@Hakeswell
Union Ilservian, Evinlea
Defiant Expeditor, Hakeswell
Arc: 70119 Hellion Initiation
Seeing as I'm gonna be having 5 VEATs I have already planned out my Wolf Spider Operative Blain, he will have all the Ranged Attacks and Grenades from the Soldier set plus the Ranged Attacks and build up from the Bane set, as Tac Ops do use 1 or 2 of the Bane Blasts.
Also having Cloaking device for just getting missions over and done with ofc! *Smiles*
Honestly the Wolf Spider/Bane Spider Hybrid is the closest CoV will get to AR/Dev which is one of my fav sets on Heroes.
Won't having the Wolf & Bane ranged attacks give you redraw though Spawnie?
A so-called Wolf/Bane hybrid isn't, it's a Bane. Venom Grenade is a key power in the Bane toolbox since Banes have the extremely powerful Poisonous Ray in their primary powerset - Venom Grenade gives you -40% poison res making the Ray attack the most powerful attack you have outside of stealth criticals, and the most powerful toxic attack in the game(?)...
The yarling I've read about redraw is pretty nuts, Surveillance causes redraw for god's sake and VG is a (big) AoE debuff not just single target. If you PVP the bane is one of the few villains with a slottable web grenade attack at low level, which is also in the "Arachnos Soldier" powerset.
Venom Grenade is not a bane spider power. You have to redraw (twice) to use it, significantly stalling your attack chain.
At best, wolf spider powers can be likened to an extra power pool that banes happen to have access to.
I really should do something about this signature.
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A so-called Wolf/Bane hybrid isn't, it's a Bane. Venom Grenade is a key power in the Bane toolbox since Banes have the extremely powerful Poisonous Ray in their primary powerset - Venom Grenade gives you -40% poison res making the Ray attack the most powerful attack you have outside of stealth criticals, and the most powerful toxic attack in the game(?)...
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Mmmmh, the toxic res debuff is big, yes, but toxic res in game are not really high (between 0% and 20% for Tankers, for instance), so the debuff is not that useful (on a 20% res tanker, you'll make 195 dmg instead of 177 dmg) ^^
Resistance debuff doesn't work like that. -40% resistance is equivelent to +40% damage (apart from it being very heavily resisted by AVs).
However, niether Venom Grenade or Poison Ray benefit from the +67% damage from hidden that melee attacks get, and they both have long animation times and long recharges, and that isn't even taking the redraw into account .
I really should do something about this signature.
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Resistance debuff doesn't work like that. -40% resistance is equivelent to +40% damage (apart from it being very heavily resisted by AVs).
However, niether Venom Grenade or Poison Ray benefit from the +67% damage from hidden that melee attacks get, and they both have long animation times and long recharges, and that isn't even taking the redraw into account .
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What is the AVs resistance nowadays? It was dropped around i10 when they toned back the usefulness of -Regen debuffs I believe but I've no idea what it is
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Resistance debuff doesn't work like that. -40% resistance is equivelent to +40% damage (apart from it being very heavily resisted by AVs).
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Really ? It's a strange way to call that, if you're right ^^'
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Resistance debuff doesn't work like that. -40% resistance is equivelent to +40% damage (apart from it being very heavily resisted by AVs).
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Really ? It's a strange way to call that, if you're right ^^'
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The way Resistance works is that it also (slightly confusingly) resists -resist (except in the case of Defender primaries in PvP).
So your 20% tank taking a 40% debuff would actually have a -32% resistance debuff (40 * (1 - 0.2) ) giving him an end resistance of -12%
So if your power does 100 damage, before the -resist he'd have taken 80 damage. Now he'll take 112.
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A so-called Wolf/Bane hybrid isn't, it's a Bane.
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Actually I'd maintain the assertion that it's a hybrid, as it makes extensive use of the Wolf Spider attacks - without stealth it would actually be closer to a NPC Wolf, as they do use a mace whereas NPC Banes don't use a rifle.
That said, you would technically be a Bane in the eye of the game in that only Banes wouldn't have access to the Crab line of powers, whereas a Wolf would (consequently becoming a Crab) - it's all just semantics.
You could similarly build a Wolf/Crab hybrid, taking WAWG, Venom Grenade and Heavy Burst from the Wolf line (to be used in that order, thereby reducing redraw issues) and Suppression and Frag Grenade from the Crab line (which would immediately follow the above) - if you were fast enough, you might even be able to squeeze them all in within an Aim buff 
@Hakeswell
Union Ilservian, Evinlea
Defiant Expeditor, Hakeswell
Arc: 70119 Hellion Initiation
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A so-called Wolf/Bane hybrid isn't, it's a Bane.
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Actually I'd maintain the assertion that it's a hybrid, as it makes extensive use of the Wolf Spider attacks - without stealth it would actually be closer to a NPC Wolf, as they do use a mace whereas NPC Banes don't use a rifle.
That said, you would technically be a Bane in the eye of the game in that only Banes wouldn't have access to the Crab line of powers, whereas a Wolf would (consequently becoming a Crab) - it's all just semantics.
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YOU'RE RUINING MY IMMERSION. In fact there is no "Wolf Spider" powerset, the ones people are talking about are in the "Arachnos Soldier" powerset. My point as far as this goes was addressing the OP - in building a 'pure' wolf with no Bane or Crab choices which since my levelling experience to 24 with the Wolf was possibly the most underwhelming time I've had with CoV, I can't imagine anyone wanting to prolong the torture...or maybe someone would. But yes, I'm pedantic - that said, why not describe anyone who takes powers out of "Training and Gadgets" a hybrid?
(I didn't think Wolfs existed past level 30 in any case?...which I thought was part of the point of the divide at level 24, part of the fiction is that all the NPC wolfs become Crabs or Banes...but anyway...)
Praf:
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Venom Grenade is not a bane spider power. You have to redraw (twice) to use it, significantly stalling your attack chain.
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You're right it isn't and neither is Tactical Training: Maneuvers which is a significant drain on your endurance. It even has "Wolf Spider Armor" at the top of that powerset to flag up that powerset is for Wolf Spiders only ;P.
Praf:
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However, niether Venom Grenade or Poison Ray benefit from the +67% damage from hidden that melee attacks get, and they both have long animation times and long recharges, and that isn't even taking the redraw into account .
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True the ranged attacks gain no benefit from being used from stealth, it's also true that Venom Grenade is buffing every melee attack by at least +20% plus the +40% to the toxic component in the melee attacks. It's not as if every melee attack you make is from stealth, VG+PR beats all melee attacks out of stealth bar Shatter which it equals, and it's pure toxic damage.
The animation times of Venom Grenade and Poison Ray are actually both shorter than Shatter and Crowd Control. The recharge for Ray is quite a bit shorter as well. You're right in so far as a Hastened Bane with the (of course great) melee attacks who also uses Venom Grenade and Ray is going to have more attacks than can be used in a "chain" but for me it's about a) potent ranged attacks and b) group utility and c) options. Against something which does have high smashing resistance VG+PR is going to be even more potent.
It seems completely reasonable for a bane player to focus entirely on being a stealthy melee attacker but I think this is one of the reasons Banes are perceived as a bit gimpy - their strength is in a mix of big hitting melee attacks, AoE debuffery and ranged attacks. The Venom Grenade / Poison Ray synergy seems pretty clear to me.
Being Rifle or Mace (Huntsmen or Tac Ops respectively)
Venom Grenade = Huntsmen
Poisonous Ray = Tac Ops
Linky
Mixing them for the sake of it won't spoil my immersion just as having pets and more powers won't neither so everyone can have my permission to take what they like
When I saw a named NPC character called Snow Girl dishing out Fire Manipulation my immersion was soiled anyway.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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it's also true that Venom Grenade is buffing every melee attack by at least +20% plus the +40% to the toxic component in the melee attacks.
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Wich you have to thow away +67% damage on your most powerful attack to use. And you can no more make the debuff of Venom Grenade debuff perma than you can make every attack from stealth. And Poison Ray is the only attack that benefits greatly by the -40%, and the recharge is to long to spam PR.
And it's not "at least" +20%. If you target is an AV or has tox resistance the debuff will bre greatly reduced. +DMG > -res.
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The animation times of Venom Grenade and Poison Ray are actually both shorter than Shatter and Crowd Control.
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Not when you add in the time to redraw your weapon. Shatter and Crowd Control both do vastly superior damage to Venom Grenade and Poison Ray anyway.
If you do want to combine Venom Grenade with Toxic damage the best way to go is create a Crab Spider, and take Mako's epic pool for Bile Spray. No redraw, and both AOE's.
Yes, you can take Venom Grenade on your Bane, but it is far from the must-have-you-are-teh-gimp-if-you-don't-take-it that you imply.
If you want a real team orintated bane, I would take double leadership, Venom Grenade, and zero mace powers.
From an RP propective, no NPC Banes use a rifle, so all rifle powers would be out for a True Bane. But if I wanted to create an RP wolf spider, I would happily mix rife and mace powers. The powers I would place off limits would be Cloaking Device and Placate.
I really should do something about this signature.
So how about those Banes? are they fun or what?
...but over in Praf world...
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it's also true that Venom Grenade is buffing every melee attack by at least +20% plus the +40% to the toxic component in the melee attacks.
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Wich you have to thow away +67% damage on your most powerful attack to use. And you can no more make the debuff of Venom Grenade debuff perma than you can make every attack from stealth.
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uhhhh...yes Praf of course I'm not saying you should throw away the opportunity to make a stealth strike. You can easily make the debuff perma if that's what you want. Have you used the thing? Two recharges without Hasten is enough.
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And it's not "at least" +20%. If you target is an AV or has tox resistance the debuff will bre greatly reduced. +DMG > -res.
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It's "at least" because a substantial portion of your mace melee attacks are toxic themselves, which will get the +40% instead of +20%. Yes, AVs and others get sliding resistance to -Res...because of course no one wants people to bring -Res to an AV fight...
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Yes, you can take Venom Grenade on your Bane, but it is far from the must-have-you-are-teh-gimp-if-you-don't-take-it that you imply.
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:rolls eyes:
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If you want a real team orintated bane, I would take double leadership, Venom Grenade, and zero mace powers.
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Because what people want in a team member is someone who doesn't take their most powerful abilities.
Venom Grenade isn't something you spam religiously since clearly most of the time you don't need it; my point is - Banes have a potent kiting weapon which given their superior ranged Def makes a lot of sense to use when needed, VG also happens to be a great team buff.
Official comment, from BAB:
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Wide Area Web Grenade and Venom Grenade (assuming you're talking about the one in the Wolf Spider powerset) are both set up as Assault Rifle attacks. It's what allows them to be used with other Wolf Spider powers without requiring weapon redraw.
There's unfortunately not any way to make them Assault Rifle powers and Mace Powers. There are a number of things that all have to be identical between two powers in order for the game to understand that you already have the weapon drawn that you need to have drawn, and making these two powers work with Bane Maces would make them not work with Wolf Spider ARs. We opted to make all of the powers work with each other with in the same powerset or class if you will. Similiar issues with Blood Widow/Night Widow and Fortunata powers.
FYI, the original design for the Arachnos Epics was going to be that once you chose a branch, you couldn't take powers outside of that branch. IE, once you became a Bane Spider, you couldn't take Wolf or Crab Spider powers. That changed and now you can...which causes these issues. My hands are tied here. It's no more possible to resolve than it is to make Air Superiority not cause weapon redraw for everyone.
My advice...if you're going to try and min/max your build by cross-classsing, you need to be aware of issues like weapon redraw and plan accordingly.
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Source
I really should do something about this signature.
So the original scheme was changed to the current one...so that no one would choose venom grenade? oh ok...doesn't this demonstrate what I've been saying?
Curiously though, my Bane toon now feels more like Eddie Izzard, thanks for ruining my immersion (again).
PS. redraw doesn't exist, it's all in your imagination. I played a Plant/Thorns dominator, not once did I notice redraw, every single time I switched from control to assault, and back, and back to assault over and over again for 50 levels, imperceptible.
Redraw doesn't exist? Wow. So I was imagining my MM redrawing his pulse rifle every time I used dark miasma, and my corrupter redrawing his assault rifle every time I used radiation emission? Good lord, I've got one hell of an imagination haven't I?
It demonstrates what I've been saying. Venom Grenade isn't a Bane Spider power. If you take it then you character is a Bane/Wolf cross class character.
Oh, and BAB thinks redraw exists, or do you think you know better than the games chief animator?
FYI, originally redraw was not intended to affect the animation times of powers. If you had a weapon that was already drawn there would be a pause built in after each attack. However, a fair few powers where broken.
THIS WAS CHANGED.
Now weapon powersets are all being ajusted to remove the pauses between attacks (and hence be slowed by redraw). Katana is the latest one to be redone. You might try reading patch notes occasionally.
Oh, and BTW, you wouldn't notice on thorns or spines because they aren't weapon sets. In fact they do have a very very brief redraw time, but because it is so short they haven't been changed. They still have the built in pause after your attacks. So no, if you are using thorns redraw will have no effect. Redraw will affect Rifles, Maces, Axes, Broadswords, Katanas (since the latest patch), Dual Blades, Pistols, Bows and Claws.
I really should do something about this signature.
Praf you do make Mr.Logic look like Omar Sharif, but as entertaining as this is for me, try reading less like a text parser. BaB is actually saying using some of the SoA powers, specifically VG means you are maximising your effectiveness at the expense of "bane purity". So I'll take the Eddie Izzard route.
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if you are using thorns redraw will have no effect
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:cough: You think the redraw on Thorns isn't noticeable? I suppose being clueless about VG also makes you an authority on Thorns as well.
is anyone actually keeping their soldier as a wolf spider and made a build?
if you could post it here, that'd be great