Illusion/Rad and Stamina

Given the respose of Okton
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I would never drop Fitness on a rad with all the toggles.

[/ QUOTE ] in the thread Ill/rad in I9 (PvE) I went out and looked on other builds. I didn't find even one other Illusion/Rad without Stamina. So I wondered is White Knight unique? Am I really the only Illusion/Radiation without Stamina?

I would guess so, my ill/rad can only just get by with stamina (don't have many powers slotted with end reds however). i think just using the illusion side you might be able to do okay but rad is a horrible end hog.

Stamina for my Ill/Rad is essential ... and I haven't even got Choking Cloud yet

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Stamina for my Ill/Rad is essential ... and I haven't even got Choking Cloud yet

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Fortunately, you can skip it Unthing . More seriously, you can get something around +30% recov from IO set bonuses on a "standard" (not too gimpy) Ill/Rad build (Stamina gives +25% base), but this would probably be at the expense of more useful (imo) bonuses (like +rechg). So it's doable with generous EndRdx slotting, but I just don't think it's worth it, especially when you think of those long AV fights.

Currently my build is generous in Recharge Reduction and skimpy on Endurance reduction. I'm sure I could skip it, but I can't think what I'd get instead, I'm not going for many pool powers. I suspect Choking Cloud would go off in AV fights anyway.

I'm not really a great one for IO builds yet, they seem sooo expensive.

I have a lvl 36 Ill/Rad controller I started to see if I coudl get away without Stamina. Never picked it up, and never needed it. Gogin from memory, my build is somehting like:

Illusion:
Blind, Spectral Wounds, Deceive, Group Invisibility, Phantom Army, Spectral Terror, Phantasm.

Radiation Emission:
Stupid subpar heal that I'm forced to take, Rad Infection, Enervating Field, Lingering Radiation, Accelerate Metabolism, Mutation, Fallout (just for kicks).

Pool Powers:
Hasten, SS, Recall Friend, Teleport.

...in no particular order.

The key to the build is using Hasten and AM together. AM to improve recovery, then AM and Hasten to reduce the recharge until the next time you can cast AM. While it's running AM provides a better boost than Stamina and with Hasten, AM's active about two thirds of the time. Which I've found is plenty.

As soon as I got Phantom Army, I knew the build would work. I now have three invincible drones to do much of my damage for me! And without using up my endurance to do so! When Phantasm came along, things just got better.

Similarly, Spectral Terror is a great soft control that keeps on controlling, end-free, after you cast it.

Typically I'll apply the Rad debuffs and let my PA and Phant go to work, chiming in with Blind and Spectral Wounds where I can. Making sure to turn off SS and Sprint, and endurance is only ever an issue in the longest of fights (versus GMs).

All this is pre-I9 as well. With IO set bonuses, I'll be able to improve my recovery even further.

Sure I've made some compromises. No Superior Invisibility, but Group Invis (in handy click, not toggle form) and SS cater for all my stealth needs. No Choking holdd from rad either, but that power's awful anyway.

Skipping Fitness has allowed me room for a few utility powers that I've found very useful, or just damn entertaining. Not enough people take Fallout.

I guess I'm still a bit of a controller newbie as I spam Blind and Deceive. Flash I found is really nice, it gives me another panic button ( currently the way I use Phantom Army in teams ).

As for AM and Hasten, I didn't know AM was slightly better than stamina, but even so I like having both.

Certainly if you were running a lot of toggles, including SI, Choking and the Leadership toggles, you would need Stamina too.

I just made considered choices about what I wanted and needed. I'm most bummed about not being able to take Leadership, since I would have loved the Vengeance/Fallout/Mutation combo.

Ill/Rad is just such a powerful combination that such comprimises don't hinder me at all. Indeed My Ill/Rad still feels, by far, the safest and strongest of all my toons.

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I guess I'm still a bit of a controller newbie as I spam Blind and Deceive.

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I spam Blind and Deceive as well as Spectral Wounds and my Epic blast . I don't have Leadership or Choking Cloud on my ill/rad (see link above to build, although I've tweaked it a bit since) and usually don't have SI on when I fight, but I play very actively and would hate having to worry about endurance mid-fight (and that's just in PvE). Hey, I even use Conserve Power in some AV fights! Also, since I slotted IOs in Spectral Terror (with the lovely damage proc), I find I often recast it before it expires so I can re-position it better, and that's an end-hungry power too. Now that I think of it, my only toons without Stamina are a kin/elec defender, my tri-form ws and a dark/elec brute .

Not meaning to sound harsh, bu an Ill/Rad without stamina is a gimped Ill/Rad

Quote:"Radiation Emission:
Stupid subpar heal that I'm forced to take..."

yes. having a fast recharging heal that can heal around 250HP or 450HP when coupled with powerboost is absolutely rubbish on one of the most hideously powerful set combos in the game.

*cough*

damn, just broke the sarcasm meter again :/

oops, did i forget to mention it was pbaoe too...oh yes, then that too.

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Not meaning to sound harsh, bu an Ill/Rad without stamina is a gimped Ill/Rad

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and believe me, 7 knows what a gimped build looks like!

* hes got about twenty of them! "lol

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believe me, 7 knows what a gimped build looks like!

* hes got about twenty of them! "lol

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Including 7 gimped ill/rads I heard...

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Not meaning to sound harsh, bu an Ill/Rad without stamina is a gimped Ill/Rad

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It works. Have you tried it?

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yes. having a fast recharging heal that can heal around 250HP or 450HP when coupled with powerboost is absolutely rubbish on one of the most hideously powerful set combos in the game.

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And as for the Rad heal... it is weak compared to those other Defender Primaries with a single heal power. Sure it's AoE but it's rarely enough to mitigate incoming damage against large spawns.

Look at the sets in comparison. Kinetics and Dark AoE heals are much stronger but require a target, Storm heal is much stronger but not AoE. Those three work much better in an emergency than the Rad heal.

The simple fact that Rad's other damage mitigating powers are so powerful means the heal is weak to balance out the set. It's the weakest power in the set and if I could drop it, I would.

How can a selfheal be bad?

In a nutshell:

If I need to heal myself, then something has gone badly wrong with my defence, or the team's defence as a whole - the enemy's already through the gates and pounding on my toon. The Kin or Dark heals, of which one application will near enough refill the whole Health bar, so such a toon could heal themselves in one shot and keep going. However, the Rad heal is much weaker and can takes 2-3 applications to heal to 100%. In that timespan, in that kind of situation, the enemy will be punching a lot faster than the toon can heal. The only viable tactic is rebuild defences (use control, debuffs, redeploy PA or ST, for example) or run like hell. The heal will only get you killed.

The situation is probably very different for a Rad Defender, or for a controller with some primary other than Illusion, but for me and my Ill/Rad, the heal simply does not work.

I'd be happy to discuss this power some more, but let's stop derailing this thread okay?

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Not meaning to sound harsh, bu an Ill/Rad without stamina is a gimped Ill/Rad

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Then you better remember to never team with White Knight because he's bloody useless.

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believe me, 7 knows what a gimped build looks like!

* hes got about twenty of them! "lol

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Including 7 gimped ill/rads I heard...

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Just 3, and none of them is gimped

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Not meaning to sound harsh, bu an Ill/Rad without stamina is a gimped Ill/Rad

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It works. Have you tried it?

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Yup, tried that myself before

I have stamina and AM 3 slotted for endurance and I sometimes still run dry on my ill/rad. It's a must imo.

Yup you'll need conserve power for AVs too, unless teaming with a kin or empath. Without stamina you'll need a kin/empath, am, conserve power and blue insps

Only if you go for an endurance/toggle-heavy build...

In my original post I already mentioned the downsides of my build. No Superior Invis, no Leadership. The really long fights will drain me. I don't make excuses for that, but it's a disadvantage I'm happy with living with and rarely encounter.

Is my build optimal? Nope, but I never tried nor felt the need to make it that way. I don't PvP and my 'troller crushes the PvE enemies convincingly enough that I've never strived for more nor felt lacking in power (just like pretty much other Controller, I've been on Invincible since about lvl 20 and have never looked back).

Is my build capable? Completely. My build works as hard as any other Controller (including period of time between rest cycles). As I just said, solo or team, my (and any decent) 'troller is so capable the game is almost boringly easy.

Little side note: I enjoy playing alts which are challenging. Blasters and Dominators for being glass cannons, for example. The challenge in my 'troller was in the making, and the experiment without Stamina.

The experiment was successful even before access the Epic pools and Conserve Power (which I was always planning on getting to help with the AVs that are so common in the 40s). In the 30s and with all my main power choices selected and with a better damage-per-endurance rate than ever thanks to Phantasm, my enthusiasm for continuing to play my Controller is severely waning. The experiment's over, the toon performs strongly as a 'troller in 99% of fights, and as a 'troller the game is just WAY too easy. I'm frankly bored and unlikely to reach 50 with this alt.

Basically, it works. It works just fine.

You're trying to say that it's impossible to make a viable Ill/Rad build without Stamina, yet Black_Light and I have both (quite independently of each other) found decent Stamina-less builds. I'm only trying to say that there are other perfectly-workable options available to Ill/Rad players who want a few more fun powers instead of the usual arbitrary ones.

Conventional wisdom says that most ATs need Stamina, especially Controllers. This is a proven exception.

I don't care about conventional wisdom, I'm speaking by experience. Of course you can make an Ill/Rad without stamina, and make it viable. You can skip PA on it too, and LR, and you can say it's still viable, but it won't be as good as it can, as it happens with an stamina-less one.
About going on an endurance/toggle heavy build... well I turn off all toggles vs avs (including SI and even acrobatics, unless it's Nighstar, ofc). Only with RI (3ToHbuff 2Endrdx 1 Endrdx), EF (3 Endrdx) and spamming LR when it's up, blind and SW you will run out of end without external buffs having AM and Stamina alone in less than 1 minute. Conserve Power makes uip for that and allows you to keep them active virtually perma.

That last comment wasn't directed specifically towards you Dark_Blasphemy, and I apologise for not making a clearer distinction between it and the rest of my post. You talked about your experience before and I acknowledge that. I've added accounts based on my own experience too.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the AV point. I know I run short on endurance in those fights, using the minimum of toggles just as you do. I would have thought Stamina made the difference in those long fights, but on your account it doesn't seem so.

Seems to me that Stamina might not even be needed for AV fights - though I can't commit to that notion until my Controller has Conserve Power and I try it for myself. If that is the case however, that would make Stamina even less necessary for Ill/Rad. Something for me to find out later methinks.

As to your other comment, what is the point of making a toon "as good as it can be" when there's no need for it to be so? Even if a neutral observer could see a noticable difference in the performance of my Controller to compared to a Stamina build (which I think would be neglibile), my Controller like most others more than meets the requiremnts of this game on its highest difficulty.

If every challenge can be beaten so easily, is there any need to improve? Speaking personally, I see no point.

If you invest time in PvP, I can certainly understand your desire to min-max your build. For PvE however, my build more than meets this game's standards. Your standards are higher and that's fair enough.