Villains are overpowered in PvP (comedy gold)
By
Aeronaut,
Posted on: 2007-05-27 08:34 in Everything about PvP
A lot of the inherant abilities of villain sets seem to directly overpower their opposites on the hero side.
If you put a tank against a brute, tanks will naturally add in all their armors and go for a stand up fight because thats what they do. Brutes can do the same thing, but over a period of time boost their damage, giving the tank problems at that kind of time scale.
Stalkers can hide really early on, delivering massive damage in the short term whilst scrappers get critical hit that has to be delivered in the long term with successive hits. By this time, stalker is gone.
Dominators get domination which can effectively overpower controllers, who as I understand it have better holds when domination isnt in effect, but PvP rarely ends up coming down to successive hits or prolonged battles.
Defenders vs. Masterminds. What can I say really, defenders are team players with a lot of aid other powers. Masterminds have that ability, some stupidly powerful shields and they bring thier own team.
As for other really effective PvP abilities, I've always found the Villain holds to be a lot more effective than hero ones, especially in PvP. This was most evident for me during valentines, where our controller just couldnt get a good grasp of snaptooth for some reason, to which a dominator did it in one hit, first time with their basic hold.
Again, I dont profess to know all the ins and outs of PvP, but as an experiment I respecced my Villains on test and the same with my hero's and I had to make far far far far far fewer changes on the Villains.
In-game and now on Twitter @Tsumiju Zero "The Nightmare of Dra'Gon"
"The flow of battle can only be influenced, not by realtime tactics, but by strategy."
Proud resident of the Union EU Server.
B.A.F. Trial Guide
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Its not like accuracy is reserved for villains. My blaster will 3 or 4-shot a SR scrapper running elude and all other def powers. Same of course applies to ninjitsu/SR stalkers running elude or retsu. This however does not equal autohit. Just very high accuracy. Something being autohit is an altogether different matter. Shouting about autohits will just eat on your credibility. (this is because there really ARE autohit powers but we arent talking about them here. Power sink is an example of an autohit power, as are targeted toggles like radiation infection and darkest night.)
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As I said, I don't profess to know every power from merely its effects when it hits, but it was suspect that all that defence was ingored by a villain hold each time I went up against it. Other powers were missing because I rammed up my defence, but the hold still got in there.
In-game and now on Twitter @Tsumiju Zero "The Nightmare of Dra'Gon"
"The flow of battle can only be influenced, not by realtime tactics, but by strategy."
Proud resident of the Union EU Server.
B.A.F. Trial Guide
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If you put a tank against a brute, tanks will naturally add in all their armors and go for a stand up fight because thats what they do. Brutes can do the same thing, but over a period of time boost their damage, giving the tank problems at that kind of time scale.
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Tanks != brutes. Brutes equivalent is a scrapper. Scrappers have higher overall damage output because they dont need to wait for fury building up, and have occasional criticals which are unresistable damage.
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Stalkers can hide really early on, delivering massive damage in the short term whilst scrappers get critical hit that has to be delivered in the long term with successive hits. By this time, stalker is gone.
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4/5 of the stalkers need to get AS off to get to that damage, which is not a given against a mobile opponent. Only EM stalkers really can get to reasonable damage output without using assassin strike. Once the stalkers are exposed, only regen stalkers have survivability before being wtfpwned by blasters. Blasters have constantly high damage output, and accuracy second to none.
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Dominators get domination which can effectively overpower controllers, who as I understand it have better holds when domination isnt in effect, but PvP rarely ends up coming down to successive hits or prolonged battles.
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Controllers have a VASTLY superior options for their secondaries, namely debuffs which are a ton better in pvp than dominator secondaries. I agree that dominators win in holding with the current domination build up. But holds are not the end-all of pvp.
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Defenders vs. Masterminds. What can I say really, defenders are team players with a lot of aid other powers. Masterminds have that ability, some stupidly powerful shields and they bring thier own team.
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While masterminds can be excellent in given circumstances, teleport foe will suddenly change the MM from a tanker into a 2-shot squishie. As buffs go, nobody can argue that defenders win buffing contest hands down.
And I think you forgot one of the better villain ATs for PVP, corrupters.
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As I said, I don't profess to know every power from merely its effects when it hits, but it was suspect that all that defence was ingored by a villain hold each time I went up against it. Other powers were missing because I rammed up my defence, but the hold still got in there.
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This is possible. Some holds ignore opponent typed defense, I think dominate is one of them. Whether this is due to a bug Im not sure. However, same glitch applies to controllers.
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Other powers were missing because I rammed up my defence, but the hold still got in there.
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As the Dominator there, I was heavily buffed thanks to my constant whining on the team channel for "Forge pls". It was a basic Fire Control hold (char), slotted with 2x accuracy, 2x recharge, 2x hold duration. You were affected by some nasty debuffs and high load of endurance draining (which resulted in the toggledrop you mentioned).
Also should be mentioned that all Control set single target holds and the like have a slightly better chance to hit than normal attacks.
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As I said, I don't profess to know every power from merely its effects when it hits, but it was suspect that all that defence was ingored by a villain hold each time I went up against it. Other powers were missing because I rammed up my defence, but the hold still got in there.
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Holds have an inherent acc boost. This goes for Controllers as well as Dominators. With the amount of acc and tohit boosts we had, and the debuffs we had on you, it's not surprising holds were getting through. And they weren't the only thing hitting anyway.
As Hammerfall has pointed out, I think there is still an issue with Dominate from Mind Control ignoring positional def, but the Dom was Fire/Ice, so it's academic really.
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Dominators get domination which can effectively overpower controllers, who as I understand it have better holds when domination isnt in effect, but PvP rarely ends up coming down to successive hits or prolonged battles.
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A Dominator needs a prolonged battle to even get Domination in the first place. You don't start with it, you have to work it up while fighting. Kill a Dom, and it'll have to start all over.
Controllers, on the other hand, are strong from the outset. By your very own ideas about how PvP works, Controllers have the upper hand.
And really, as I think has already been said, buffs and debuffs are generally far more important in PvP than holds, which are pretty easily countered on any half-decent team.
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Defenders vs. Masterminds. What can I say really, defenders are team players with a lot of aid other powers. Masterminds have that ability, some stupidly powerful shields and they bring thier own team.
While masterminds can be excellent in given circumstances, teleport foe will suddenly change the MM from a tanker into a 2-shot squishie. As buffs go, nobody can argue that defenders win buffing contest hands down.
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While masterminds can be excellent in given circumstances, teleport foe will suddenly change the MM from a tanker into a 2-shot squishie. As buffs go, nobody can argue that defenders win buffing contest hands down.
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This makes me laugh, Masterminds are like Defenders except with a team. The Kinetic comes out on top. 
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While masterminds can be excellent in given circumstances, teleport foe will suddenly change the MM from a tanker into a 2-shot squishie.
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And on paper at least, it looks like a good selection of AoEs turns 'em into a three-shot squishie as bodyguard damage hastens their pets' demise 
DCUO and CO will never see my money. The Citygame will keep seeing my money for as long as I keep enjoying it
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Some holds ignore opponent typed defence, I think dominate is one of them. Whether this is due to a bug Im not sure. However, same glitch applies to controllers.
[/ QUOTE ]and/or positional defence too. It's not a bug. It is, in fact, WAI believe it or not. Mind Dominators/Controllers are king when it comes to screwing you no matter what you have
The amusing thing is that every time I come up with the casual gamers interpritation, I get a reply from the stat police. Have you considered that people just want to enjoy the game, whatever their gamer style, which is precisely the point I'm trying to make about balance.
In-game and now on Twitter @Tsumiju Zero "The Nightmare of Dra'Gon"
"The flow of battle can only be influenced, not by realtime tactics, but by strategy."
Proud resident of the Union EU Server.
B.A.F. Trial Guide
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The amusing thing is that every time I come up with the casual gamers interpritation, I get a reply from the stat police. Have you considered that people just want to enjoy the game, whatever their gamer style, which is precisely the point I'm trying to make about balance.
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There are stat police? 
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The amusing thing is that every time I come up with the casual gamers interpritation, I get a reply from the stat police. Have you considered that people just want to enjoy the game, whatever their gamer style, which is precisely the point I'm trying to make about balance.
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The thing is, the game doesn't work on your 'interpretation'. It works how it really works, and that's all people are trying to tell you.
If you step into a PvP zone, you have to expect people might fight you. Further, if you go in as a self-avowed PvE player who admits to not knowing a lot about PvP, you have to expect there will be people in there who know a lot more about PvP mechanics than you do, and who will have more PvP experience than you do.
Doesn't it seem fairly ridiculous to say yourself you're not much of a PvPer, and then claim the game is broken when some experienced PvPers beat you? There's no shame in not being any good at PvP, or simply not liking it, or not having any experience in it, or not having a PvP build. I think the whole point of the thread was just that - rather than admit to something that there's nothing wrong with at all, you basically started screaming OMG OVERPOWERED VILLAINS GAME IS BROKEN.
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The amusing thing is that every time I come up with the casual gamers interpritation, I get a reply from the stat police. Have you considered that people just want to enjoy the game, whatever their gamer style, which is precisely the point I'm trying to make about balance.
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What was picked up was your feeling that villains were overpowered, while it may have seemed like that at the time the actual FACT is that heroes are FAR more powerful than villains.
Villains have to work twice as hard as heroes to get the the same kind of performance out of their characters, this is why people found your comments so funny. Thats all.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
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What was picked up was your feeling that villains were overpowered, while it may have seemed like that at the time the actual FACT is that heroes are FAR more powerful than villains.
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as long as you pick the "right" powers that is, which is again the point. PvP should give ALL at's a good chance against other AT's, not just certain ones in rock paper scissors.
In-game and now on Twitter @Tsumiju Zero "The Nightmare of Dra'Gon"
"The flow of battle can only be influenced, not by realtime tactics, but by strategy."
Proud resident of the Union EU Server.
B.A.F. Trial Guide
[ QUOTE ]
The amusing thing is that every time I come up with the casual gamers interpritation, I get a reply from the stat police. Have you considered that people just want to enjoy the game, whatever their gamer style, which is precisely the point I'm trying to make about balance.
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You cannot relate game style to balance if you are a casual person with a very much PvE build fighting someone that is experienced and has made a build more suited for PvP.
There is nothing stopping you enjoying PvP but you have to accept that there will be people that are better and will beat you. Crying about that and because you think villains are overpowered really is a joke (I find it more funny then auto hit holds).
I know plenty of people with causal builds that are able to enjoy a spot of pvp. I think and don't take it personally you may have to evaluate your mind set and flawed perspective.
One last thing I would never think pvp is fair, fun yes but fair no.
Heros
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as long as you pick the "right" powers that is, which is again the point. PvP should give ALL at's a good chance against other AT's, not just certain ones in rock paper scissors.
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So correct me if I'm understanding this correctly - you're saying that my Emp/Dark Defender with 1-slotted Dark Blast should be able to take down a Katana/SR Scrapper? As pcked powers should not matter in the PvP experience?
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[url="http://www.the-cow.net/"][color=red]The CoW Network (Blog) /[/url][url="http://www.collegeofwar.com/"][color=blue]/ College of War[/url]
no, but a emp/dark should have a chance against a kat / sr. Purposely giving gimped power examples really isnt the way to try and shoot down my point of view.
As for PvP, yes there will always be better people than me, I accept that. However there is a HUGE difference between them being better and casual gamers not standing a chance, again perhaps you should re-evaluate your idea of balance because again, those casual builds you speak of, probably fall into one of the few known sets that are good in PvP.
For example, many a cry about stone armor in PvP for brute / tank is naturally good.
Everyone should have a good chance at winning a fight, not just the select few thanks.
In-game and now on Twitter @Tsumiju Zero "The Nightmare of Dra'Gon"
"The flow of battle can only be influenced, not by realtime tactics, but by strategy."
Proud resident of the Union EU Server.
B.A.F. Trial Guide
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no, but a emp/dark should have a chance against a kat / sr. Purposely giving gimped power examples really isnt the way to try and shoot down my point of view.
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It's a way to point out that the universal model of "everyone should have a shot against everyone" has flaws in it and provoke further discussion by bringing out points that would be left out without such drastic examples.
Might also be a language barrier thing here (not native speaker), but I'm having problems figuring out what you mean by "balanced", so the example serves as a way for me to probe that out...
So to take this fight as an yet another exaterated example, would balanced mean that you should have a fair shot of beating 4 people up without them killing you?
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As for PvP, yes there will always be better people than me, I accept that. However there is a HUGE difference between them being better and casual gamers not standing a chance,
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I guess the problem here is that a Casual PvE player doesn't have understanding of things like PvP movement and teamwork, which are fundamentally different from PvE. This means that for example if you try to play as if the opponent was an AI, you actually become very predictable, which an experienced PvP player can use to his advantage.
This can result in a casual player, who hasn't grasped things like using the environment for their protection, have lessened chance versus a PvP player. But there is always a chance. It just gets infinitely smaller as the odds stack against you. 5% hit and miss probabilities are in place in every situation and all that.
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again perhaps you should re-evaluate your idea of balance because again, those casual builds you speak of, probably fall into one of the few known sets that are good in PvP.
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I don't speak of casual builds... do I? I speak of generic terms like powersets and archtypes. And not much of those either. My example of the Emp/Dark would actually be well-followed by an example of "Should the Kat/SR have much shot versus the same Emp/Dark and his buddy, the En/En Blaster"
And I didn't know there are only few known sets that are good in PvP? Sure, there are easy sets to play in PvP, like an Ice/En Blaster or Spines/Regen scrapper, but it doesn't mean a Fire/Fire Blaster or a Dark/Dark Scrapper would be any less good if played by someone who takes the time to learn and play it in a PvP situation.
PvP is about taking what you have and turning it into something that can compete against real people. I'm currently planning a PvP Offender respec for my Emp/Dark Defender, something that is not at all optimized for PvP by default.
And sorry about the incoherrent rambling, I'm at work.
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[url="http://www.the-cow.net/"][color=red]The CoW Network (Blog) /[/url][url="http://www.collegeofwar.com/"][color=blue]/ College of War[/url]
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no, but a emp/dark should have a chance against a kat / sr. Purposely giving gimped power examples really isnt the way to try and shoot down my point of view.
As for PvP, yes there will always be better people than me, I accept that. However there is a HUGE difference between them being better and casual gamers not standing a chance, again perhaps you should re-evaluate your idea of balance because again, those casual builds you speak of, probably fall into one of the few known sets that are good in PvP.
For example, many a cry about stone armor in PvP for brute / tank is naturally good.
Everyone should have a good chance at winning a fight, not just the select few thanks.
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read your own arguments, rock, paper, scissors, some are good at SUPPORT, some ATTACK.
Seeing as how you admitted you are not a regular pvper why not try to learn instead of repeating your incorrect statements over and over. Every AT build should NOT be able to take on any other, to suggest they could is farcical and implimenting your wish would result in the [censored] that killed SWG. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your lack of pvp experience by, i dont know, pvping and learning more and see the subtle balances that DO exist. The ONLY real imbalance in the game is the FACT that HEROES are more POWERFUL than VILLAINS.
Oh and no one crys about stone armour in PVP, ever.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
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Oh and no one crys about stone armour in PVP, ever.
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Except those who have it 
[b][color=blue]Coldest War /[color=red]/ Omega Patient[/b]
[url="http://www.the-cow.net/"][color=red]The CoW Network (Blog) /[/url][url="http://www.collegeofwar.com/"][color=blue]/ College of War[/url]
Kiting and SOE Killed SWG, not fair fights.
As for learning PvP, it's very difficult to learn PvP because of 10 seconds fights due to what I've tried ( in plain english ) to describe.
I should have known that even trying to give an opinion other than that of the forum cartel was a waste of time.
As for crying about stone armor, it happens a lot, except I don't feel the need to keep chat logs of everything :P
In-game and now on Twitter @Tsumiju Zero "The Nightmare of Dra'Gon"
"The flow of battle can only be influenced, not by realtime tactics, but by strategy."
Proud resident of the Union EU Server.
B.A.F. Trial Guide
Theres a forum cartel?
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Theres a forum cartel?
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its a generic term used to describe the same old people always jumping on everyone with something different to say.
In-game and now on Twitter @Tsumiju Zero "The Nightmare of Dra'Gon"
"The flow of battle can only be influenced, not by realtime tactics, but by strategy."
Proud resident of the Union EU Server.
B.A.F. Trial Guide
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As for the autohit comment, with all your powers, hitting a SR scrapper with all the powers I had active should be very very low, yet each and every time you manage it on the first hit. Difference last time was that your friends couldnt easily finish the job because of so much defence making them hit me very difficult.
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Its not like accuracy is reserved for villains. My blaster will 3 or 4-shot a SR scrapper running elude and all other def powers. Same of course applies to ninjitsu/SR stalkers running elude or retsu. This however does not equal autohit. Just very high toHit chance because of my selfbuffs. Something being autohit is an altogether different matter. Shouting about autohits will just eat on your credibility. (this is because there really ARE autohit powers but we arent talking about them here. Power sink is an example of an autohit power, as are targeted toggles like radiation infection and darkest night.)