[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to know if the originators of this plot realise that known villains have put their name to the petition (or have claimed to do so in conversations in Pocket D) as a gesture of "support" for their friend, White Vampyr.
Do they realise what an absolute disaster this would actually be? The public reaction alone would be crazy, and I don't mean within the "hero community", I mean with the general public and the municipal authorities. Heroes that have signed would have their status called into question even by the most supportive, and the taint of collusion with Recluse would seep through into public perception.
((From Kelvinbridge's post))
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As the originator of the idea of a 'heroes for people' petition storyline, yes I am aware that players have supported this with Villain characters as well as heroes.
A PR nightmare? Not always. You may be aware of a 'criminal' put away for over two decades who's support for the Anti-apartheid movement was critical, and whom is held in very high regard. Perhaps the name Nelson Mandella rings a bell?
I don't know of many legal systems that deny a person their rights to representation for having a criminal record. If there are any, they may well be in breach of the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
Now there are situations where some of these rights may be curtailed because the person represents themselves a great threat to the human rights of others. But fair and honest treatment by the law, and respect due to all human beings is pretty central to the declaration.
You still have to treat prisoners with all the basic human rights even while they are serving their sentance. The right to seek Political Asylum is also given, which may explain why Heroes are not allowed to just go and attack the Rogue Isles.
So far as I am aware, even though Jeffrey Archer went to jail, he's not only eligable to vote, but could even hold some political office again.
Admittedly, escaped prisoners are another matter. However, do you know for a fact that none of the villains signing were not just visiting, or even only on remand?
Even were that not so, a petition as a whole is not dimished by the addition of uncountable signatures. Otherwise any petition or bill could be balked by just one person signing as Daffy Duck.
http://www.savecoh.com/
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I don't know of many legal systems that deny a person their rights to representation for having a criminal record. If there are any, they may well be in breach of the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
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Dude... It's a comic book game... 
Besides, half the people signing might not even BE human! Tiger Dark (Eloise) has signed it. She's very not human, she just looks it. 
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Otherwise any petition or bill could be balked by just one person signing as Daffy Duck.
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Bah! I'm caught!
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Shadowe, Kelvinbridge, thank you. Now I feel less alone in my opinions regarding this.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
[ QUOTE ]
You may be aware of a 'criminal' put away for over two decades who's support for the Anti-apartheid movement was critical, and whom is held in very high regard. Perhaps the name Nelson Mandella rings a bell?
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Wince, I'm not sure comparing Mandella with someone who knocks over banks in Atlas Park is entirely reasonable.
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Admittedly, escaped prisoners are another matter. However, do you know for a fact that none of the villains signing were not just visiting, or even only on remand?
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Um anything coming over from CoV has been broken out of the Zig by Arachnos...
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
[ QUOTE ]
Um anything coming over from CoV has been broken out of the Zig by Arachnos...
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Except Arachnos, and anyone who wants to Roleplay that they were one of the people sent in to do the breakout, rather than one of the convicts? I know the game machinery is such that all villains are supposed to be Zig escapees, but this is roleplay.
Do we also now say that any power not available as an in-game powerset one is non-existant because the machinery doesn't support it? I hope not, because there are a lot of creative characters with powers beyond the game machinery limitations.
http://www.savecoh.com/
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Do we also now say that any power not available as an in-game powerset one is non-existant because the machinery doesn't support it?
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Nope. Though it would have solved so many problems if we had.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
i think what kelvin's getting at Ammon was that it's more comparable to say cigarette companies funding research into lung cancer and smoking habbits and passive smoking and then "finding no direct link"
it may be true but then again it may be that tha's what the company paid the scientists to find.
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I don't know of many legal systems that deny a person their rights to representation for having a criminal record. If there are any, they may well be in breach of the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
[/ QUOTE ]
Dude... It's a comic book game...
Besides, half the people signing might not even BE human! Tiger Dark (Eloise) has signed it. She's very not human, she just looks it.
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Is there any reason to think that the UN and a (possibly slightly differently worded) Universal Declaration of Human Rights doesn't exist in the game world?
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I also feel like I'm not able to influence it (so I don't feel it's freeform... To me there seems to be a desired path.). Yes, I wrote the tabloid article here on the forums, but it doesn't appear to be that one that's caused any trouble, in fact it hasn't generated any response (of course the article is written with the implication that denial shows truth, after all why would they deny the document says what the paper said it did unless it really does...) and as has been pointed out by Quilla, where is the response to the production of a full pile of the signatures of every registered hero in Paragon? If the response is "oh well they were shredded immediately because we couldn't use them", I'd ask - Where was the moral indesicion? If passion wrote the petition, why should common sense and logic rule its collection?
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Those are good questions to answer. I'll try to give equally good answers.
First of all the freeform issue.
I believe quite a bit of Brit and White's storylines have been in direct response to newspaper articles, of which yours was the first.
Unfortunately, because you didn't PM me either through the boards or in-game, your story missed a lot of details that you might otherwise have been able to include that a reporter probably would have dug up, so we followed up your lead with a more salacious version.
My own IC storyline post about the first reporter to get to the Inquirer with the background dirt on the author was in direct response to your article, and used the same paper. It was needed also because your article didn't have a reporter's name, and some other characters were outraged enough by the press smear to want to 'sort out' the reporter.
Additionally, just like in the real world, sometimes later investigations overshadow the first reports. That the petition exists is far less of a gossip-monger story than the fact its been started by a 'fraud', who is an ex-celeb, is having an affair with another celeb who's had bad press of his own, etc, etc.
You started the ball rolling, and I have seen a great deal of response to that initial momentum from a number of different players, ending in the deletion of a PC hero detective convicted of murder.
On the second issue, are you asking IC or OOC what happened to the signatures? I'm assuming OOC since this thread is for OOC questions, but I wanted to be sure.
The OOC response has to be, well, what did you do with them? Your unnamed 'young hero' had them. Where did he deliver them? Did he delete them? What did he say about them and where they came form, and most importantly, to whom?
You see, Suzi merely printed out a few dozen copies of a petition form and handed some to friends. As yet, not one person has RP'd delivering such a list anywhere, and Suzi did not provide any instructions as to what to do with them that I can see in the letter.
As far as I know, a load of young male heroes, none of whom know Suzi directly, are going around idealistically with copies of a petition that noone knows what to do with. So far, noone asked that question, nor RP'd giving out the form with any instructions, or even asked where to return the form with its signatures. The only form that was even halfway delivered to where White might have found it and got it back was Dr Mechanibus I believe, who left it on the bar at Pocket D. 
http://www.savecoh.com/
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Um anything coming over from CoV has been broken out of the Zig by Arachnos...
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One of the things which puts me off taking part in more of the roleplaying here is this sort of inconsistency. If we take that approach you can't play a non superhero, you can't opt out of the medibay teleporting system, you can't be a ghost, etc., etc., etc.
Although personally I'd prefer that. But the inconsistency between which parts of the game setting are considered rigid and fixed and which parts are simply ignored as desired drives me slightly nuts. (This is just a personal opinion I hasten to add, it's not the right way or the wrong way, I don't expect everyone or even anyone to agree).
I'm tired of labouring this point... Getting patronised doesn't help my mood. If you can't grasp the concept of what effect a known villain signing the petition would have on the Public's perception of the petition, I seriously hope that you don't work in public relations or marketing.
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I'm tired of labouring this point... Getting patronised doesn't help my mood. If you can't grasp the concept of what effect a known villain signing the petition would have on the Public's perception of the petition, I seriously hope that you don't work in public relations or marketing.
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Well, actually I do, so this kind of personal insult really isn't that helpful or constructive.
I know quite a few RP thorns dominators that are political activists - extreme Greenpeace worker types. I have a character who was in the Zig for a minor crime, but was placed there because he happened to have super-powers. I also know several RP villains who are more heroic in mindset than many of the heroes, they just got a bad break sometime in the past, or see the best place to fight crime being where it is most plentiful.
I'm saying that trying to exclude other players you don't know is not in the spirit of good gamesmanship for any game. In a RP game, it comes a little close to god-modding to decide all by yourself what repurcussions someone elses actions will have for anyone but you.
If it stops your character supporting the petition, that's roleplay. To say it negates the petition is god-modding.
http://www.savecoh.com/
[ QUOTE ]
I'm tired of labouring this point... Getting patronised doesn't help my mood. If you can't grasp the concept of what effect a known villain signing the petition would have on the Public's perception of the petition, I seriously hope that you don't work in public relations or marketing.
[/ QUOTE ]
The effect of a villain signing the petition would depend on the public's pre-existing view of the petition.
To illustrate that, consider a petition for something that most people would consider to be a good thing. Say... more funding for education. Or a tax rebate. Whatever makes the example work for you.
Now if there's a petition for that, and suddenly you hear that "Evil McNasty the Dastardly Villain" has signed it, you're not going to suddenly say "Oh my god! A villain supports this! It must be evil, and everyone who signed it must be evil too!"
If, on the other hand, you had your doubts about the petition to start off with, then hearing that known villains had signed it would likely reinforce that.
But that said, if you're the originator of the petition, you probably don't have doubts about it. So hearing that villains are signing it may not bother you that much at all, and you probably wouldn't regard it as a PR disaster either. After all, you can't choose who supports your campaign, and there's some good in everyone, right?
[ QUOTE ]
To say it negates the petition is god-modding.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, but he didn't say it. He just pointed out that a 'villain' signing a 'heroes for people' petition, which is controversial already thinks to poor sense of wording, would not be adventagious.
"Hey, did you hear that scoundrel that blew up the bank in Kings last week signed that petition? Man, that petition must be bad news"
Do you think pointing out a probable and logical point to be godmoding?
Well, considering your trackrecord, you probably meant something else then what you wrote down.
Also, he was right you know, you are being patronising in most of your 'explaining' posts... how Powerstone must hate you.
@ShadowGhost & @Ghostie
The Grav Mistress, Mistress of Gravity
If you have nothing useful to say, you have two choices: Say something useless or stay quiet.
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To say it negates the petition is god-modding.
[/ QUOTE ]
As does saying it doesn't negate the petition. Unfortunately we have no 'higher authority' to look to to determine how this would be played out in the media, who are, afterall, likely to the ones to decide how such things would play out.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
[ QUOTE ]
Now if there's a petition for that, and suddenly you hear that "Evil McNasty the Dastardly Villain" has signed it, you're not going to suddenly say "Oh my god! A villain supports this! It must be evil, and everyone who signed it must be evil too!"
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, thats called an Association Fallacy, and has become quite a widely used propaganda trick. "Bad Group X (usually the Nazis) supported Y, therefore Y is bad."
The point is, it works, as an appeal to emotion, and on people who don't think too deeply. Publicity is based on emotion, not logic.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
[ QUOTE ]
You see, Suzi merely printed out a few dozen copies of a petition form and handed some to friends. As yet, not one person has RP'd delivering such a list anywhere, and Suzi did not provide any instructions as to what to do with them that I can see in the letter.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then 'explain' this to me...
How did that petition reach the public, as a petition rather then a leaflet?
It was posted as a petition, so naturally (although you seem to have trouble grasping that cause and effect thing) we replied to it as being an organized petition
@ShadowGhost & @Ghostie
The Grav Mistress, Mistress of Gravity
If you have nothing useful to say, you have two choices: Say something useless or stay quiet.
[ QUOTE ]
It was posted as a petition, so naturally (although you seem to have trouble grasping that cause and effect thing) we replied to it as being an organized petition
[/ QUOTE ]
Ammon might well point out here that the organiser of the petition has since vanished. That would be a convenient way of getting round that particular plot hole.
Unfortunately, since Brit and Rachel have now heavily identified themselves with the petition in front of the press and (I think) TV cameras, we could also assume that signed petition forms are likely to start being handed to them by gushing fans. (I see about five dozen giggling girls gathered around Brit while Rachel looks on with a cheesy grin on her face, but I'm only working on the personalities portayed in the micro-story.)
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, thats called an Association Fallacy, and has become quite a widely used propaganda trick. "Bad Group X (usually the Nazis) supported Y, therefore Y is bad."
The point is, it works, as an appeal to emotion, and on people who don't think too deeply. Publicity is based on emotion, not logic.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know that. My point is that it doesn't work if the people it's directed at already believe that Y is a good thing. Invoking an association fallacy certainly isn't an automatic public relations disaster, it depends on what is being associated with what. You could run a campaign telling everyone that the nazis drank water, but you wouldn't see a huge drop in water consumption.
It's only a really effective tactic for something that's already contentious to start off with. In this specific instance, while it would have some impact in some quarters, I doubt it would have anything like the impact suggested by Kelvinbridge.
[ QUOTE ]
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You see, Suzi merely printed out a few dozen copies of a petition form and handed some to friends. As yet, not one person has RP'd delivering such a list anywhere, and Suzi did not provide any instructions as to what to do with them that I can see in the letter.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then 'explain' this to me...
How did that petition reach the public, as a petition rather then a leaflet?
[/ QUOTE ]
Presumably via the friends? It's not exactly a wild suggestion to say that some of the friends might have gone out and asked people to sign it, who in turn might have offered to collect more signatures themselves.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You see, Suzi merely printed out a few dozen copies of a petition form and handed some to friends. As yet, not one person has RP'd delivering such a list anywhere, and Suzi did not provide any instructions as to what to do with them that I can see in the letter.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then 'explain' this to me...
How did that petition reach the public, as a petition rather then a leaflet?
[/ QUOTE ]
Presumably via the friends? It's not exactly a wild suggestion to say that some of the friends might have gone out and asked people to sign it, who in turn might have offered to collect more signatures themselves.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then it should be one of those friends to post it.
If it's an NPC friend, it still falls under the same player's responsibility.
@ShadowGhost & @Ghostie
The Grav Mistress, Mistress of Gravity
If you have nothing useful to say, you have two choices: Say something useless or stay quiet.
I fail to see the line between the leaflet and the petition, I agreen entirely with Ghost on this one - if these people are tracking down heroes and bothering them AT THEIR HOMES and when they are working then they must have some official backing.
If they don't then please say so - I have a character who would gladly prosecute them for bothering her.
[ QUOTE ]
As does saying it doesn't negate the petition. Unfortunately we have no 'higher authority' to look to to determine how this would be played out in the media, who are, afterall, likely to the ones to decide how such things would play out.
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Quoted for truth. As yet there's been nothing apart from Kelvin's tabloid article that has been written reguarding this plot from the media view. I think you should at least make an attempt to write some news articles or press conferences from the PEOPLE and not the supers to suppliment how things are being percieved.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm saying that trying to exclude other players you don't know is not in the spirit of good gamesmanship for any game. In a RP game, it comes a little close to god-modding to decide all by yourself what repurcussions someone elses actions will have for anyone but you.
[/ QUOTE ]
read it again carefully please.
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The OOC response has to be, well, what did you do with them? Your unnamed 'young hero' had them. Where did he deliver them? Did he delete them? What did he say about them and where they came form, and most importantly, to whom?
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as organiser this is actually YOUR concern.. you never mentioned where the petition was being delivered, who was supporting it finacially, how the petition was being counted, are they using computers? ballets? is MAGI, GIFT etc involved? the city hall MUST be involved as it concerns the city - if the city hall couldn't care less then even thinking the idea has been a complete waste of time from everyone.
At the //very// least the city hall has agreed that if x amount of signatures were brought to them they'd do something. how many did they want? they must have had terms.. what were these terms.
did you consider all the possible ways this could have gone?
[ QUOTE ]
as organiser this is actually YOUR concern.. you never mentioned where the petition was being delivered, who was supporting it finacially, how the petition was being counted, are they using computers? ballets? is MAGI, GIFT etc involved? the city hall MUST be involved as it concerns the city - if the city hall couldn't care less then even thinking the idea has been a complete waste of time from everyone.
At the //very// least the city hall has agreed that if x amount of signatures were brought to them they'd do something. how many did they want? they must have had terms.. what were these terms.
[/ QUOTE ]
Have I missed something? Why must the City Hall be involved? 
From what I've read, it's pretty clear that a character just came up with a petition, gave it some friends, they went out to get signatures. No official backing is necessary here. Presumably the intention is to gather signatures first and then present them to City Hall with the intention of showing the public support for the idea so it can then be considered, but the intent might be just to do nothing, it might not have been thought through. Doesn't stop people who've got the petition from someone making copies and getting signatures with the intention of giving it back to the person they've got it off. That's how these sorts of things often do spread, informally.
I just don't see why City Hall would have to be involved. I could draw up a petition in real life right now about, I don't know, putting up more street lights and go around getting signatures. I wouldn't have had to get approval from anyone to do so.
All that I've seen stated is that 'the petition is being circulated'. In the absence of any statements of formality and statements indicating the exact opposite, I don't see why you'd assume it has to be officially backed - unless, like I said, I've missed something?
Yeah, I think it would be a great idea, but I can see them putting it in Galaxy, or Founders' instead of King's Row.
I do actually think it's a beautiful idea. Maybe Brit should post something like that in the ideas section for inclusion in I10. If the Rikti are coming back in force (maybe) it would be cool if the city had just put up a huge memorial to those who fell in the last war.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.