Originally posted by Ravenswing:
(( Out of character, and out of interest, it is really badly worded and it does insult super-powered heroes. The first paragraph is designed to set your teeth on edge. Was this actually by design, or purely accidental? Or would you rather not say? ))
http://www.savecoh.com/
Originally posted by Ammon, in response to Ravenswing:
((Out of character then, it is written as the passionate and idealistic songwriter would have worded it. It is a piece of passion. She cannot understand the reasons some have reacted so poorly to it at all.
Having been a bigger celebrity in some ways (at least beyond hero-obsessed Paragon) before gaining her unwanted powers a year ago, Suzi mostly blames the media, but also feels that politicians trying to gain votes off of supporting popular heroes are to blame.
The first paragraph was very carefully worded (as a player) to catch up those who would fall into the common trap seen on these boards of trying to see things as purely black and white, pro or con. On these forums, criticism can never be constructive, and if one says "this could be better" one is accused insted of saying it is rubbish.
Let's look at that first paragraph which has set so many teeth on edge:
[ QUOTE ]
Paragon City is facing a huge problem. For too long, the city has idolized its super-powered citizens and ignored the real heroes in the city: the regular people who fight without the benefit of any super-powers, relying solely on human spirit and heart, to make the city work.
[/ QUOTE ]
The only possible problem there is that one could infer the writer is suggesting that only the non super-powered are 'real' heroes. It is not implied, as she has never felt that way, but it could be inferred that way by those who wished to. She has clearly and categorically stated that it is 'the city' as a whole that is doing this, and at no time in that paragraph assigns any responsibility for this on the heroes themselves, not even in suggestion. Again, she never asked for her powers, and hated them until she faced up to the fact she had them and had darned well decide what to do with them. Because doing nothing is also a choice for which one must judge oneself.
As a writer, that people can't seem to actually read between the lines without inserting their own bias could be annoying in other circumstances. As a player, it has been a wonderful opportunity to exploit a common foible and create some beautiful in game tension and attention.
A big thanks to everyone who has helped make this an interesting and passionate storyline, and put so much creative energy into the Petition thread.))
http://www.savecoh.com/
I'll expand on the above a little with some OOC info on Suzi that people may have missed, since it has been distributed around a lot of different threads, and so may not have all come together as I think this may help get some context to the piece.
Suzi is not a trained PR person, and has never been a political activist, although her song-writing was heavily influenced by what might be termed a social conscience.
There is quite a lot of public-domain information available that Suzi left a suicide note a year ago, and took an overdose, right at the height of her career. Her heart stopped in the ambulance on route to the Chiron Medical Center. An explosion at that hospital, which official investigations record as being due to a gas leak, lost the actual medical notes on the ward, so Suzi was recorded as having died as a result of overdose - which is probably the clearest evidence that she suffers from clinical depression one could ever get.
In other words, the character is no skilled statesman by any stretch of the imagination. In thinking about musicians who turn to politics to get inspiration, I was thinking of people like Bob Geldoff, Sting, and many others who say all the wrong things, even getting a lot of backs up, but have great passion for their cause.
So yes, the petition was deliberately written to say things poorly, not just because creating division and a rift was the main thing I wanted to put opportunity for into the storyline, but also because it was entirely in character.
I really don't want to talk too much about my own player objectives for the storyline, because I want to allow everyone their own interpretations, without feeling they'd be derailing the story. This isn't my story to dictate. It is our story to play with freely, all of us, and to spin whatever we want from.
Really, my idea was for the storyline to raise questions, for all of us, that would allow for character development. Mostly those questions are about how each hero sees their place in society.
Of course, the biggest problem for the story is that the 'game canon' is just loose enough that we all have slight variant interpretations of the game world.
Suzi has a teleporter that can take her directly to the emergency ward of the nearest hospital, as most heroes seem to have. Suzi is not aware of any 'regular citizen' having such a device, and is aware that many regular people just die, as she's never, when in hospital, seen a non hero arrive by medi-port device.
For her, heroes get life-saving special treatment not made available to ordinary people. If in your interpretation of the game-world all citizens have medi-porters, so that even pensioners are instantly transported to emergency treatment at need, that's an obvious difference that could cause some slight problems of aligning our realities, but I don't think it needs be a deal-breaker.
There are still a lot of great roleplaying opportunities to the storyline I believe, and I'm trying to stay clear of absolutes, or of having any GM or arbitrator for the story.
http://www.savecoh.com/
I'm trying to paste in the OOC posts that made different points that should perhaps be addressed, rather than cover each variant of what may amount to the same question. If I miss any here, after these next couple, please do re-ask in this thread.
The next post raised a point that was particularly important for any OOC discussion though, and was originally posted by Shadowe:
((OOC Post.
Thanks, B.
Speaking for myself (as it's all I can do ), that would help a great deal.
However, as an RPer who has responded to the original as written twice now, I would like to add my two inf.
No one is attempting to malign the sentiment behind the petition (if I'm wrong, please tell me). However, as can clearly be seen, there is a vast gulf in the interpretation of the petition's intent. I do not know if this was intentional on Ammon's part (I hope it was, to be honest). A simple petition that every hero just signed and forgot about wouldn't be half as interesting as what has happened. We have two camps of heroes: Those who think it's great, and those who have seen it as an attempt to put the blame for the city's ills on the super-powered. This is a fantastic RP opportunity.
We've seen the free press take the ball and run with it, interpreting it to suit their own chosen bias, we've seen characters arguing about it. This is brilliant. What I am sorry to see is any OOC discussion about it.
It's happened. Let's RP the consequences. Let's not worry about what Ammon meant when he created the idea, let's just play our characters and see what happens.))
http://www.savecoh.com/
The difference in interpretation is of course vital to a realistic storyline.
Any characters with the power to read the mind of White Vampyr just by holding a printed copy of a petition she wrote may have access to just one true interpretation. If your character has such powers, please feel free to PM me, here or in game.
For the rest of us, our characters just have to go on what they see, what if anything they know of the writer, and their own tendancy towards giving benefit of doubt or not.
So yes, OOC posts to ask about what was intended, are a problem unless you are asking as an omniscient character who could know. Non-omniscient characters don't need to know - just play it as your character interprets it. In life 5 witnesses to any event tend to have 5 different viewpoints of what occured, and while none knowingly lie, there is always a difference between absolute truth and subjective, interpreted truth.
http://www.savecoh.com/
Most people here are quite able to seperate IC knowledge from OOC knowledge. If not, it would be impossible to involve more than 1 character in any given plot. IMO, OOC questions are not a problem if a person needs to know for their own needs as to whether they wish to continue taking part in a plot or not. Of course, one needs to avoid giving away too much, but asking for clarification on something is quite reasonable IMO.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Since this is an OOC thread, I feel the need to get something off my chest I didnt want to clutter the IC thread with, so.. here goes.
-------------------
[ QUOTE ]
((Out of character then, it is written as the passionate and idealistic songwriter would have worded it. It is a piece of passion. She cannot understand the reasons some have reacted so poorly to it at all.
.
A big thanks to everyone who has helped make this an interesting and passionate storyline, and put so much creative energy into the Petition thread.))
[/ QUOTE ]
(( Just curious that two of your character have the exact same opinion of Grav: that of a glory seeker. ))
-----------------
((
Since you ask, I'll suggest that perhaps because that's how you have played her? She (Grav) actively patronises the young hero in the post above, practically patting him on the head like a troublesome puppy, and saying "there there, poor silly boy, I'm so much smarter than you"
Apparently, like Powerstone, the young hero was blinded by the good intention to read the slander and anti-hero propaganda. Also, Grav has been around longer then the young man. Besides, she lectures at the university about various magical subjects for people both adapt and unknown with magic
that includes those many years older then her.
That is what Powerstone reacted to, having overheard only the last parts of her little lecture, and seen the crushed look she put on the face of the young and idealistic hero, rather than positive encouragement. She agrandised herself, happily making the young hero feel lesser and stupid to make herself feel all glorious and self-important.
She shared her view, her insight in the matter. Shed be open for debate, but as it wasnt his petition
there was no debate.
Powerstone probably has all of the same qualifications of heroism as Grav, (perhaps more, perhaps not perhaps less) but unlike her, he believes a hero's duty is to inspire and support people.
Powerstone absolutely hated her attitude. That's simply how he would react to the scene you described. He's rather old-school about 'noblesse oblige' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noblesse_oblige
Ah, so Powerstone will encourage a hellion stealing a purse? Or will he point out what is wrong with stealing a purse?
Also, might I point out that in your story felt like a personal attack against my character + my response to your petition.
Namely these following portions did that:
[ QUOTE ]
Although the young hero saw the point the mage was making, his one-time adoration to Grav Mistress was tearing him away from the obvious conclusion.
Seeing this, Powerstone explained, "No, she's not selfish, Youngster. She is simply unwise.
.
The young man nodded, seeing the truth.
.
"Don't expect to get everyone to sign, youngster. But pay no heed to the thoughtless excuses some will make. You are doing the right thing"
[/ QUOTE ]
Might I ask if English is your first language?
Either way, you seem to have trouble gaining the effect you claim to go for.
See the following quote:
[ QUOTE ]
(( All OOC:
[ QUOTE ]
The only possible problem there is that one could infer the writer is suggesting that only the non super-powered are 'real' heroes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, it doesn't imply anything, it downright says that superpowered heroes aren't real heroes. You're going on about people reading between the lines, but you are adding emphasis after the fact which isn't there in the original. 'The city' cannot idolise anything, and 'the city' generally means the people within it. Not the government, or aspects of the governing structure, but everyone.
Not only that, but it's historically inaccurate and anyone who spends any time being a hero in Paragon City knows darn well that the 'idolisation' of heroes is a very recent phenomena, though it operates in cycles. Does the phrase "maybe you capes aren't so bad afterall," ring any bells?
[/ QUOTE ]
@ShadowGhost & @Ghostie
The Grav Mistress, Mistress of Gravity
If you have nothing useful to say, you have two choices: Say something useless or stay quiet.
[ QUOTE ]
Any characters with the power to read the mind of White Vampyr just by holding a printed copy of a petition she wrote may have access to just one true interpretation. If your character has such powers, please feel free to PM me, here or in game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Psychometry, the ability to read the history of an object. Probably need to get your hands on the original draft though.
Crow could do it, given a dozen difficult obtain ingredients and a faily lengthy ritual, but he's not going to put the effort in. Glory could do it if she really wanted to and it was amusing, which it wouldn't be, or absolutely required to dig out of a plot hole, which it isn't.
Jason could do it by summoning a demon or a long dead spirit, but he's trying to keep off the hard stuff.
Sister Psyche could do it by locating White Vampyre across the city and just reading her mind.
However, what good any of that would do is pretty open to question. It might establish the motives for writing the petition, but the motives would only count for setting up someone to blame. What's interesting is the various viewpoints of the people explaining why they are or are not going to sign the thing. which, I think, is your original concept for the plot.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
[ QUOTE ]
However, what good any of that would do is pretty open to question. It might establish the motives for writing the petition, but the motives would only count for setting up someone to blame. What's interesting is the various viewpoints of the people explaining why they are or are not going to sign the thing. which, I think, is your original concept for the plot.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, exactly so.
http://www.savecoh.com/
Shadowghost, it sounds like the issues you have are personal rather than plot related, and are thus probably best dealt with in private if you wish to pursue the questions.
But if it bears any relevance to interpretation of any IC posts, yes, English is my first language, and has been for over 40 years.
http://www.savecoh.com/
I've been playing various roleplaying games for 25 years now (mostly classical "sitting-around-a-table-eating-pizza-while-playing" games, but occasionally other kinds like computergames and play-by-mail) and I must say that this current piece of work is really amazing in its power to engage the "community"!
Well done Ammon (and the rest of you giving it more life)!
I sincerely hope that this controversy amongst the gamers are purely IC, and that it's mainly the characters that react to the "badly worded" petition.
I'm quite new to CoX (only been playing since october) and hadn't even concidered to roleplaying it until this storyline emerged in Pocket D (and to be fair, Britanics Tempest Virus story as well)
Therefore; Thank you again for this brilliant piece of storyline!
[ QUOTE ]
(and to be fair, Britanics Tempest Virus story as well)
[/ QUOTE ]
To be fair the Tempest Virus thing came from a Silent Tempest and EVIL plot, I just used it as a spring board and kept is running through my "Riot in the Row" series. It was a great idea that just screamed to be built on.
The Heroes for People debate is another such idea I never planned to involve Britanic other than a signature. However due to the impact it has had on his personal life, via Suzi, his own guilt, and his good friend Rachel's desire to put things right. He feels compelled to try some damage control.
Its not just my own character affected either, almost everybody has an opinion, and the opportunities for other stories to be driven by this are vast.
[ QUOTE ]
and I must say that this current piece of work is really amazing in its power to engage the "community"!
[/ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, I think a lot of that engagement has been out of an OOC sense of annoyance.
[ QUOTE ]
I sincerely hope that this controversy amongst the gamers are purely IC, and that it's mainly the characters that react to the "badly worded" petition.
[/ QUOTE ]
Frankly, I think it's been both IC and OOC from a lot of people. I'm now reasonably happy that Ammon had no intention of actually insulting anyone, but I think he needs to be more careful about the way things are phrased and how he presents plot.
As you said in reply to Bridger, Ammon, the reaction of people to the poor wording is part of the plot. However, your characters' behaviour, particularly with regard to Grav Mistress, has bordered on OOC malice, even if that's not what you intended.
What has concerned me most is that I don't think you understood what you were getting into when you started, and I think it took you too long to acknowledge that this was assured of causing OOC as well as IC issues. Several of your posts have set about blaming the petition's readers for interpreting the petition in a negative light, refusing to accept that the wording is anti-hero even if unintentionally so. I'm currently assuming that you were trying hard not to reveal White Vampyre's emotional and mental state until you had to as part of the plot, but it's easy to see your posts as suggesting that everyone else was just seeing things that weren't there.
I'm currently quite happy with the way this plot is going, but only after the OOC explanation of a few things. I don't know how you guys are used to having plots run, but in an open RP environment like this, it's usually best if the players have some idea of your intentions when you start.
In this case, we were presented with a petition written by a hero in such a way that it not only downplays the efforts of heroes, but also insults them and claims their efforts are worth nothing and are actually making things worse. It came out of the blue (to most of us).
When we reacted to it in character, we are told out of character that it is our interpretation of the words which gives it the insulting slant, and that we have basically read it wrong.
As I've said to my own partner on at least one occaision, if you want to run psychology experiments on other people, don't expect to see good OOC results from doing so. People rarely like being experimented on, especially with any kind of mind game. Especially when engaging in a hobby that's designed to be fun.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
may i ask how the petition organisers are viewing the Scotbot's production of a full and complete list of signatures?
Timekeeper had a go at attempting to get it back but rugby tackling a young hero when there's longbow standing around has never been a good idea - we can only assume the hero got the list back to the offices.
i daresay we need some more of Kelvinbridge's lovely tabloid articles as well ^_^
[ QUOTE ]
People rarely like being experimented on, especially with any kind of mind game. Especially when engaging in a hobby that's designed to be fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
I had always thought that was the function of most roleplay - it being an excercise in being someone else and thinking like them.
but i digress.
[ QUOTE ]
When we reacted to it in character, we are told out of character that it is our interpretation of the words which gives it the insulting slant, and that we have basically read it wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Raven's right there - there's no "right" way to read it, unfortunately a word document isn't the best way to get people to instantly see the original point of view - i reccomend demonstarations or newscasts in future to start off a plot like this.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
People rarely like being experimented on, especially with any kind of mind game. Especially when engaging in a hobby that's designed to be fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
I had always thought that was the function of most roleplay - it being an excercise in being someone else and thinking like them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let me rephrase: People don't like being experimented on secretly.
Also, I think you totally mistook what I meant by 'mind games'. I enjoy thinking like another person, it is one of the reasons I roleplay. What I don't need is someone manipulating me or my characters without my consent.
[ QUOTE ]
Raven's right there - there's no "right" way to read it, unfortunately a word document isn't the best way to get people to instantly see the original point of view - i reccomend demonstarations or newscasts in future to start off a plot like this.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, but then there would have been a small scene where a few heroes take White Vampyre aside, assess the situation and have her admitted to a psycho ward for evaluation, rather than a plot. 
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
[ QUOTE ]
Ah, but then there would have been a small scene where a few heroes take White Vampyre aside, assess the situation and have her admitted to a psycho ward for evaluation, rather than a plot.
[/ QUOTE ]
that would have been entertaining too - it would have sparked it's own plot about how society is cruel for locking up a hero that wanted to "share the glory" i'm sure we could have knocked out a good few tabloid reports about it and achieved the same civil unrest in the end ^_^
[ QUOTE ]
Let me rephrase: People don't like being experimented on secretly.
Also, I think you totally mistook what I meant by 'mind games'. I enjoy thinking like another person, it is one of the reasons I roleplay. What I don't need is someone manipulating me or my characters without my consent.
[/ QUOTE ]
no no, i understood ^_^ there just didn't seem to be an adiquate smilie for it ^_-
[ QUOTE ]
that would have been entertaining too - it would have sparked it's own plot about how society is cruel for locking up a hero that wanted to "share the glory" i'm sure we could have knocked out a good few tabloid reports about it and achieved the same civil unrest in the end
[/ QUOTE ]
I tend to doubt it simply because a lot of well respected heroes would have stepped in and made long speeches which would have basically drowned out the noise of WV.
It would have been interesting, but on a more personal level, affecting WV and Brit and their friends, and probably the people who had got her locked up in the first place. In the old days, we would have wheeled out Stargazer or Mindblank or similar and there would have been deep, meaningful dredging into Suzi's character while Britanic stood on the outskirts wringing his hands.
Meanwhile: Over in the General Discussion forum there's a thread about 'funky' builds which is a very interesting read and which has come down to people discussing the original post and whether it means one thing or another. It's a very interesting parallel with this plot, and it's way cute that a 'real world' argument is blowing up in just the same way that the 'rp world' argument has.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
yeah i only just started reading that one- it made me laugh cause someone on the second page mentined auto heals.. and i only just discovered how to do that..
I have too many "funky" builds to comment though.. even though the pacifist scrapper hasn't gotten very far yet.
I was disscussing with Raven this, and thought, what the heck I'll share it withthe world. I think it's funny, and maybe a bit insulting considering my heroes ages 
, that, all the NPC heroes, save maybe a few like myself and raven who doesn't actually sign or not sign any petitions, who ask people to sign their petitions are discribed as young male heroes, often alot younger than themselves.
I think its kinda funny because it suggests that only the young and naive inexperience heroes would believe in WV petition enough to go around trying to get people to sign it. Does everyone subconciously think this or is this just a coincendence (Spell check plz!)Or even still am I one of the more younger RPers in RL and in game? 
I am personally intreagued by the responses this particular plotline has gotten both IC and OOC, i personally, believe that no harm was meant by it.
I haven't known those that RP in Pocket D's that long (i would attend the Galaxy Girl meetings at 9pm but my major character is a villain and thus cannot attend and i feel like i would be intruding with any of my hero characters) but i can hazard a guess as that it was merely meant as an interesting plot device and not some secret 'mind game' both IC and OOC. As mentioned it IS poorly worded but it is also written very passionately and when people write passionately they tend to forgot that some people will misinterpret what is being written.
everything written has three possible ways of being interpretted, my way, your way and the authors way and most of the time those three views aren't going to match.
Being new to the world of CoX i can safely say that no other game and no other community has afford me the opportunity to do the things i have attempted, especially the fall of Detective Smith from worn out gumshoe to possible twisted villain. For that i am grateful to the people that produced an opportunity to delve into the darker side of human nature if only for a brief time.
Even though this particular plot device has sparked both IC and OOC arguement, i feel that despite it's many criticism, it has engaged the RP community on CoX as a whole, in both good and bad ways and that is pretty darn rare in itself in any online game.
These of course are just my own personal OOC opinions on the matter.
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
maybe it's all the same young male hero... ooooo it's a conspiricy!!
or it's just the young male heroes who are drawing the short straws on the case - all thse female heroes are raking in the petitions y'know ;-P
nah just kidding
Well... The OOC differences seem to have settle down now, which is good.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
I'm one of the oldest, if not the oldest, so I naturally think youngsters are nieve and impetuous, because you all are.
I haven't done a story on Polyhymnia's reaction to this, but she would probably refuse to sign the document as is, or she would sign it without reading it, depending on how distracted she was. It really hasn't got anything to do with age, but stereotypically, it would be the younger heroes who would signa and then seek other signatures without considering how the petition sounds.
Also, one of Ammon's stories (pretty sure it was him) features an older hero telling a younger one that anyone who doesn't read the petition the way WV intended it to be read is basically a fool, indicating that older heroes can also be nieve.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
This entire thread is for OOC discussion to clarify any questions that arise from the in-character posts in the original, IC thread on the Heroes for People petition and movement.
First a quick note of apology and explanation.
I apologise for not posting an OOC discussion sooner, as I did consider it, but I didn't want to be greedy in taking up 2 entire threads for what might have been quite a minor plot.
With other voices adding their suggestions for such an OOC thread, and considering the level of interest the plotline seems to have gained, I now feel a bit more confident that an OOC thread is merited.
I'm going to paste in some of the OOC questions that have occurred in the IC thread now, and do my best to answer all of the essential questions I can find that are needed to better interpret the IC events.
http://www.savecoh.com/