I don't really see it as an issue on my SS/Invul Brute to be honest and while I usually run it all the time, I generally don't auto the power because of possible slows etc...
It's not exactly a nerf at all.
Yes, but to be fair Brutes don't (generally) herd or take as much aggro as tankers. And you guys tend to rely on fury to kill things so you can get away with using your large heavy-hitters less often.
Scenario: INV/SS Tank fighting a big mob, in the middle of the herd letting Invincibility do its thing. Hitting things with your End Bar hovering around 50% (normal practice for my INV/SS, the big attacks cost a fair bit).
You hit Knockout Blow on a Boss, bringing your end bar down to around 25% and notice that "rage" is beginning to blink. You hit Rage and Queue Footstomp to avoid some aggro with the -defence you're about to receive. Suddenly rage crashes and you get hit with the 25% end, dropping all your toggles, leaving you with -defence and that "only affecting self" message ---> **Completely** helpless.
And it'll be far worse when fighting carnies... 
No, it won't affect people who don't run perma-rage.
It'll probably mostly affect PvE tankers who solo from time-to-time.
It's not a SS-killer, but it'll certainly be very annoying for certain people- myself included.
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Avoiding the rage endurance crash by running perma-rage has been a known "trick" for years, it's a way to improve the combat strength of your character with the sacrifice that you'll have -defence and not be able to attack every few minutes. I find it very annoying that they've only just decided it's an "unacceptable exploit" now.
[/ QUOTE ] The devs simply weren't aware of it. Personally, I didn't know of it before...a few weeks ago, IIRC, when it was mentioned in one post, and I've been here since EU launch.
In short, it's not a nerf, it's a bug fix.
Hmm Mael? How can you consider it being a nerf as they're changing the power to what it's intended? It's not like it's a nerf coming out of thin air, as the recent controller thing that shall not be named change.
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It's a nerf in that it's been that way for a considerable amount of time. And now has had a negative change performed to it. That's pretty much the definition of "nerf".
I'm surprised you didn't know about it MaX. It's common knowledge amongst most SS tankers I've talked to and alongside Dull Pain is probably the most popular reason for INV/SS taking Hasten.
I'm not saying it isn't a long-time bugfix.
I'm saying it's still a nerf and will hit some toons hard.
I know for a fact that my INV/SS will have a lot of trouble with his endurance usage now, and the Rage crash in general seems far too harsh. The -defense and "only affecting self" can make it tricky enough to survive and keep aggro through a crash... I don't need that much -endurance coming at me too.
-20% defense, only affecting self and -25% endurance.
I can cope with that once or twice, but every few minutes?
That's going to make "rage" much more situational and change some toon's playstyles.
Think of this as a mild rant and a "heads up".
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Yes, but to be fair Brutes don't (generally) herd or take as much aggro as tankers. And you guys tend to rely on fury to kill things so you can get away with using your large heavy-hitters less often.
Scenario: INV/SS Tank fighting a big mob, in the middle of the herd letting Invincibility do its thing. Hitting things with your End Bar hovering around 50% (normal practice for my INV/SS, the big attacks cost a fair bit).
You hit Knockout Blow on a Boss, bringing your end bar down to around 25% and notice that "rage" is beginning to blink. You hit Rage and Queue Footstomp to avoid some aggro with the -defence you're about to receive. Suddenly rage crashes and you get hit with the 25% end, dropping all your toggles, leaving you with -defence and that "only affecting self" message ---> **Completely** helpless.
And it'll be far worse when fighting carnies...
No, it won't affect people who don't run perma-rage.
It'll probably mostly affect PvE tankers who solo from time-to-time.
It's not a SS-killer, but it'll certainly be very annoying for certain people- myself included.
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Hahaha, no. I herd as much as a tank with considerably less surivability, I have to spam my attacks to (ie; more end use)get Fury and I have lower base damage than a tank.
All the change means is that you have to pay attention a little bit more and maybe *gasp* pop a CAB!
And the End crash is a lot better than the old penalty.
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I'm surprised you didn't know about it MaX. It's common knowledge amongst most SS tankers I've talked to
[/ QUOTE ]I don't have an SS tank 
25 end every 2mn is less than 0,21 eps. It's hardly game-breaking.
If you're not happy with perma-build up, you can play a mace tanker. No crash there. 
Apologies if that first post seemed a little SS-fanboyish. I'm fairly on-edge since I read Lighthouse's post and learned that the team salvage/enhancement drop messages on US test are a further move towards CoH having a "loot-based system".
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I'm surprised you didn't know about it MaX. It's common knowledge amongst most SS tankers I've talked to
[/ QUOTE ]I don't have an SS tank
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Ah! That'd be why then.
Not going to ask why you're browsing the tanker forum... I forum-hop plenty myself! 
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I herd as much as a tank with considerably less surivability, I have to spam my attacks to (ie; more end use)get Fury and I have lower base damage than a tank.
All the change means is that you have to pay attention a little bit more and maybe *gasp* pop a CAB!
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Your higher damage from fury offsets the lower survivability. I've never met a Brute that didn't heavily slot his attacks for endurance reduction before damage output, since with fury damage enhancements give less return on a brute than a tanker.
With Fury you also won't need to use the larger end-drain attacks such as Footstomp and KO Blow as regularly as a tanker will in order to produce the same amount of damage. Therefore combined with a Brute's slotting for endred and higher damage output a SS/INV Brute will finish off a mob far faster and with less endurance issues than a INV/SS tanker...
Now I realise that Brutes are meant to be more damaging, and tanks more survivable. It still doesn't sweeten the fact that running perma-rage will now give an already end-heavy secondary further endurance problems.
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I'm surprised you didn't know about it MaX. It's common knowledge amongst most SS tankers I've talked to
[/ QUOTE ]I don't have an SS tank
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah! That'd be why then.
Not going to ask why you're browsing the tanker forum... I forum-hop plenty myself!
[/ QUOTE ]Not having an SS tank != Not having a tank
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Ah! That'd be why then.
Not going to ask why you're browsing the tanker forum... I forum-hop plenty myself!
[/ QUOTE ]Not having an SS tank != Not having a tank
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/e Facepalm 
(patiently waits for INV/SS tankers to comment and reassure him that it's not "the end of the world"...)
How on earth is this a nerf? Seems more like a fix to me. Are you just trying to create drama?
IN MEMORIUM OF GAYBABY
CRUELY TAKEN FROM THIS WORLD WHILE SO YOUNG
Can I shout DOOM! yet? I've been waiting ages.
*** Points up ***
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It's a nerf in that it's been that way for a considerable amount of time. And now has had a negative change performed to it. That's pretty much the definition of "nerf".
....
I'm not saying it isn't a long-time bugfix.
I'm saying it's still a nerf and will hit some toons hard.
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And yes. I'm trying to create drama in order to inform other tankers who currently run perma-rage.
It's the first "nerfing" SS has had since I've been playing.
It's unlikely to get reversed, and I'm not expecting a reduction in the endurance crash either.
It should be obvious by now that I don't like this change since it impacts my playstyle negatively. Thankfully my INV tanker is at 50 and is built more for survivability than damage, otherwise I'd be considerably more upset.
The fact remains that anyone who is considering levelling a SS tanker (particularly an INV/SS tanker due to the lack of self-end buffs and no -recharge) needs to be aware that the perma-rage setup is being made less effective.
Its your fault Maelwys bringing up your perma raging on the forums last week!
We have you and only you to blame!
Alot of players are keeping stum about other things especially pvpers!
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I don't really see it as an issue on my SS/Invul Brute to be honest and while I usually run it all the time, I generally don't auto the power because of possible slows etc...
It's not exactly a nerf at all.
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Yeah i never really perma raged for same reasons, plus as a tank 10 sec downtime can = someone in debt if things are manic or keeping aggro of so many is tight.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Bleh.
I'm 99% sure that was sarcasm, but glance at the US board thread linked on the first post Shannon:
Castle jumped right into a "friendly" discussion about rage, nerf-bat in hand!
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Can I shout DOOM! yet? I've been waiting ages.
[/ QUOTE ]
Feel free. Haven't seen that kitten vid linky in weeks...
It was sarcasm but it pays to be careful as somethings go unnoticed sometimes.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Doooom!
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
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How many of you run Perma-rage on a scranker build, particularly in PvP?
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I do in pve.
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Basically the end drain crash has just been made unavoidable. That means that you'll still get hit with a -25% end when running "Perma Rage", just like you're hit with the "only affecting self" message currently...
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I have to say I was unaware of this bug.
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Avoiding the rage endurance crash by running perma-rage has been a known "trick" for years, it's a way to improve the combat strength of your character with the sacrifice that you'll have -defence and not be able to attack every few minutes. I find it very annoying that they've only just decided it's an "unacceptable exploit" now.
[/ QUOTE ]
This does sound far more like a bug than a 'trick' to me.
And tbh the only part of the crash that bothered me was the not being able to attack for 10 seconds.
I'm pretty sure it isn't -25% end though, looks more like a fifth than a quarter?
As nerfs go this seems minor.
I certainly don't see how it is going to hurt the solo-tanker that much.
I think this fix has been long in coming. Good stuff.
Bleh. Mace fanboys....
I'm getting numb to it now.
I'm a perma Granite/SS, never was able to run this perma :P
Its pretty ok imho, if its a bug (or call it exploit), its good its finaly being fixed
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I have it somewhat 'perma'd', but since I don't use Hasten on my build, it's only really perma when my SOs are green +2 or higher. When they're +1 or lower, it's not perma anymore.
Also, take into account the many enemies who use -recharge attacks.
In short, nothing much for my inv/ss tanker has changed, haha. Inv/SS has always been somewhat endurance heavy due to no means of recharging unless you pick up Conserve Power in your 40s. Means you just have to pick up Stamina at 20 and three slot as soon as possible, as well as putting a Endredux in all attacks. 
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I used to run perma rage on my SS Brute, I liked the fact that I could escape the end penalty. It was especially useful at the low to mid levels when endurance is a major issue. I stopped using the exploit a while ago because I used to experience some odd overlapping over the "only affecting self" period. Not sure whether it was because I had three recharge SOs and Hasten but I would get the down time unexpectedly and at seemingly odd intervals. After I7 was released and the blinking icons were added I stopped using perma rage as I found it much more useful to know exactly when I would be penalised.
Whether or not this is an actual nerf is beside the point. A lot of SS tankers (and Brutes!) will have to a) change their slotting and b) change their playstyle. SS tankers will now have to slot their attacks with end reducitons and rely on Rage for their ToHit buffs.
It certainly isn't a game breaking change for SS users, and as I said, I conciously made a decision a stop running Rage a while back and learnt to deal with the down side to Rage, let's not forget that it is (and still will be) an awesome power.
How many of you run Perma-rage on a scranker build, particularly in PvP?
Basically the end drain crash has just been made unavoidable. That means that you'll still get hit with a -25% end when running "Perma Rage", just like you're hit with the "only affecting self" message currently...
I know this change will affect my tanker. I regularly run perma-rage when he's soloing and Super Strength is endurance-intensive enough without losing an extra 25% endurance every few minutes.
I'll probably have to slot some endreductions into rage now rather than tohit buffs. Blast!
Link to the changes here
Link to the thread where Castle said it needed nerfing here
I'm kinda upset about this, It seems harsh particularly for INV tanks who don't get any self- recovery bonuses. If they're going to do this then I'd suggest reducing the endurance cost crash, 25% seems very harsh considering that we already have to deal with the -defence and "only affecting self". I already have serious end problems fighting carnies and malta without my toggles dropping due to perma-rage crashing.
For reference, although it has a far shorter duration (and no debuffs) "Build up" only costs 5 endurance.
The patch also brings some candy like fewer rooting toggle powers and gauntlet/aura taunt fixes, I'm happy about them, really... but I can picture this change making life for a soloing tanker very tricky, and INV/SS tankers will have to manage their endurance very, very closely if this goes live.
Avoiding the rage endurance crash by running perma-rage has been a known "trick" for years, it's a way to improve the combat strength of your character with the sacrifice that you'll have -defence and not be able to attack every few minutes. I find it very annoying that they've only just decided it's an "unacceptable exploit" now.