[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:[/color]<hr />
I dont see nothing wrong with a pacifistic type of character. Its a nice option.
If ya think they are lazy, go nuts, be suicidal and give them some work to do.
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Pacifist = */emp controller.
Good */emp controllers brings their primary and their secondary.
Good Emp/* defenders brings their primary and their secondary.
"Pure Empaths" brings their primary and... nothing else.
Don't you see a problem ?
No i dont actually although mine is one that has controls, say if one had leaderships then the buffs provided to the team outweigh the damage etc that the defender could of done themselves.
Additionally empaths have to often have the reactions of a saint and so in many teams put damage dealing to the back.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:[/color]<hr />
24) --> Resurrect==> Rechg(24) Rechg(31) Rechg(31)
[/ QUOTE ]
This, here, is everything you need to know about "pure empaths".
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24) --> Resurrect==> Rechg(24) Rechg(31) Rechg(31)
[/ QUOTE ]
This, here, is everything you need to know about "pure empaths".
[/ QUOTE ]
His empath doesnt lead the teams he is on and has no say in how much there is to do or is needed in so little time. I'd of had an end slot in that!
Just because there are 3 recharges doesnt mean a thing Lexce its saving on downtime, this guy is playing his empath and not governing how other people play their toons as well.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
+15 or whatever% enhanced damage (so assuming NO ONE in the team has Aim, Build Up, or any damage buff, and that our Emp doesn't even use fort, it'd be less than a 7,5% real increase... in reality, even less) = 2/3 of one blaster damage ?
By your maths, one lvl 1 kin would be roughly equal to 2 lvl 50 blasters then. Hey, I love kin as much as the next guy, but...
Anyway. Tactics shouldn't be factored because almost everyone caps their acc on their own in PvE, and there's fort if some don't.
Some people can multitask, some can't, one shouldn't assume "no one can do it" because some people can't do it.
To be honest, I don't understand your comment. Mine was to poke fun at the idea you'd NEED rez to recharge that fast if that guy was on your team.
Seriously, I could tweak his build and make a balanced defender that'd be more effective than him while using no attacks, if only because I'd add Hasten which helps Empathy a lot.
[ QUOTE ]
+15 or whatever% enhanced damage (so assuming NO ONE in the team has Aim, Build Up, or any damage buff, and that our Emp doesn't even use fort, it'd be less than a 7,5% real increase... in reality, even less) = 2/3 of one blaster damage ?
[/ QUOTE ]
The damage buff across the team adds up. A defender with this on a typical team of say 1 tank, 2 scrappers, 2 blasters and 1 controller has given the team more than his base damage, with any time spent mainly healing and buffing he is infact keeping up with his part of the damage during the process and its not like he is gonna go and 6 slot all attacks asap. One person cant be good in the eyes of everyone. A defender may have sg commitments in pvp base raids etc res to taunt and placate is a good thing.
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By your maths, one lvl 1 kin would be roughly equal to 2 lvl 50 blasters then. Hey, I love kin as much as the next guy, but...
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I think your being stupid.
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Anyway. Tactics shouldn't be factored because almost everyone caps their acc on their own in PvE, and there's fort if some don't.
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Not fort for all and the +perception can be given to everyone with cm but again base raids. Accuracy rules. Cant turn around and say to someone respec in and out of builds pls.
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Some people can multitask, some can't, one shouldn't assume "no one can do it" because some people can't do it.
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I dont, i dislike the "i cant do it no one can!" approach as much as i dislike "i dont like it therefore its garbage".
Pure empaths are hardly gonna be quaking in their boots to anyone saying "Pure empaths are garbage" on the forums and i just think its trashtalk. Like any one persons opinion really matters.
People can have any concept they want and its finding the people theyll fit in with is what they have to do.
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To be honest, I don't understand your comment. Mine was to poke fun at the idea you'd NEED rez to recharge that fast if that guy was on your team.
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Well one of these 
is a good idea s it may seem insulting and none of us know if you know eachother ingame.
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Seriously, I could tweak his build and make a balanced defender that'd be more effective than him while using no attacks, if only because I'd add Hasten which helps Empathy a lot.
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Yeah i couldnt be without hasten but to each their own.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Here is my Build for my Level 50 Empath.
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Exported from Ver: 1.7.6.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder - (http://sherksilver.coldfront.net/index.php)
---------------------------------------------
Name:
Level: 50
Archetype: Defender
Primary: Empathy
Secondary: Dark Blast
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Healing Aura==> Rechg(1) Rechg(3) Rechg(3) Heal(5) Heal(5) Heal(7)
01) --> Dark Blast==> Acc(1)
02) --> Heal Other==> Rechg(2) Rechg(7) EndRdx(9) Heal(9) Heal(11) Heal(11)
04) --> Absorb Pain==> Rechg(4) Rechg(13) Rechg(13) Heal(15) Heal(15) Heal(42)
06) --> Hurdle==> Jump(6)
08) --> Combat Jumping==> EndRdx(8)
10) --> Clear Mind==> Rechg(10) Rechg(43) Rechg(46)
12) --> Fortitude==> Rechg(12) Rechg(17) DefBuf(17) DefBuf(19) TH_Buf(19) TH_Buf(21)
14) --> Super Jump==> Jump(14) EndRdx(50)
16) --> Health==> Heal(16) Heal(43) Heal(43)
18) --> Recovery Aura==> Rechg(18) Rechg(21) Rechg(23) EndMod(23) EndMod(25) EndMod(25)
20) --> Stamina==> EndMod(20) EndMod(27) EndMod(27)
22) --> Acrobatics==> EndRdx(22) EndRdx(29) EndRdx(29)
24) --> Resurrect==> Rechg(24) Rechg(31) Rechg(31)
26) --> Regeneration Aura==> Rechg(26) Rechg(31) Rechg(33) Heal(33) Heal(33) Heal(34)
28) --> Assault==> EndRdx(28) EndRdx(34) EndRdx(34)
30) --> Tactics==> EndRdx(30) EndRdx(36) EndRdx(36) TH_Buf(45) TH_Buf(46) TH_Buf(46)
32) --> Adrenalin Boost==> Rechg(32) Rechg(36) Rechg(37) Heal(37) Heal(37) EndMod(39)
35) --> Vengeance==> DefBuf(35) DefBuf(39) DefBuf(39) TH_Buf(40) TH_Buf(40) TH_Buf(40)
38) --> Grant Invisibility==> EndRdx(38)
41) --> Power Build Up==> Rechg(41) Rechg(42) Rechg(42)
44) --> Conserve Power==> Rechg(44) Rechg(45) Rechg(45)
47) --> Total Focus==> Acc(47) Acc(48) Dmg(48) Dmg(48) Dmg(50) Rechg(50)
49) --> Swift==> Run(49)
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Sprint==> Empty(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Empty(1)
01) --> Vigilance==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
---------------------------------------------
[/ QUOTE ]
To this build i would bear in mind recharge happens after the action time, end redux in combat jump removes 1/300th of an end bar in cost per second so id have anything but, even jump instead but most likely def to stack if i benefit from anything. Clearmind would have a range so that i am not having to stand within pbaoe range of all AVs etc and offers extra chance on good timing. 3 recharges are good if you like to do the whole team in the quickest succession. Fortitude has enough tohit already to go up against +5s and most people have the acc so i'd of 3 rechg 3 def for pve. I would of taken swift instead of health simply because i have heal aura thanks! Both RAs would have 1 end redux in them because it removes so much in cost (low end bar moments) and there is only so much good it does. 3rd end slot on any toggle is of little consequence. Id of taken any pbaoe over TF especially if it was raining arrows, cool power tho in PVP and haste brings RA's and ABs recharging about 40% quicker or 0.7 however ya want to look at it.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:[/color]<hr />
I think your being stupid.
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Heh. 
It's been proven "pure empaths" are sub-optimal. I don't think I need to prove it again here if you have to ressort to name-calling already. People who care can go check the information on the US boards or try by themselves in game, people who don't want to believe it won't believe it no matter what.
Pure implies better somehow, but it's not true. This is misleading and insulting to balanced defenders. Argue as much as you want adding 7,5% final damage to 5 players is the same as doing 130% damage, it won't make it true. We all know base raids are the bomb and everyone's doing it, but assault isn't that great. Not to mention balanced builds can have assault/tactics too.
Just going to copy/paste this build, I don't have hero builder :
01) --> Healing Aura==> Rechg(1) Rechg(3) End(3) Heal(5) Heal(5) Heal(7)
01) --> Dark Blast==> Acc(1) Acc(X) Dam(X) Dam(X) Dam(X) End(X)
02) --> Heal Other==> Rechg(2) Rechg(7) EndRdx(9) Heal(9) Heal(11) Heal(11)
04) --> Absorb Pain==> Rechg(4) Rechg(13) Range(13) Heal(15) Heal(15) Heal(42)
06) --> Hurdle==> Jump(6)
08) --> Combat Jumping==> Jump(8)
10) --> Clear Mind==> End(10)
12) --> Fortitude==> Rechg(12) Rechg(17) Rech(17) DefBuf(19) Defbuf(19) Defbuf(21)
14) --> Super Jump==> Jump(14)
16) --> Health==> Heal(16) Heal(43) Heal(43)
18) --> Recovery Aura==> Rechg(18) Rechg(21) Rechg(23)
20) --> Stamina==> EndMod(20) EndMod(27) EndMod(27)
22) --> Acrobatics==> EndRdx(22)
24) --> Gloom==> Acc(24) Acc(31) Dam(31) Dam(X) Dam(X) End(X)
26) --> Regeneration Aura==> Rechg(26) Rechg(31) Rechg(33) Heal(33) Heal(33) Heal(34)
28) --> Assault==> EndRdx(28)
30) --> Tactics==> EndRdx(30) TH_Buf(45) TH_Buf(46) TH_Buf(46)
32) --> Adrenalin Boost==> Rechg(32) Rechg(36) Rechg(37) Heal(37) Heal(37) EndMod(39)
35) --> Tenebrous Tentacles==> Acc(35) Acc(39) Dam(39) Dam(40) Dam(40)
38) --> Nightfall==> Acc(38) Acc(X) Dam(X) Dam(X) Dam(X)
41) --> Power Build Up==> Rechg(41) Rechg(42) Rechg(42)
44) --> Conserve Power==> Rechg(44) Rechg(45) Rechg(45)
47) --> Temp invul==> Res(47) Res(48) Res(48) End(X)
49) --> Hasten==> Rech(49) Rech(X) Rech(X)
(Ignore power selection/slots levels)
There you go. Balanced build with assault, tactics, 4 well-slotted attacks (2 ST, 2 AoE), all emp powers but rez ; and if you really want rez (lol), just take out temp invul and put it instead.
[ QUOTE ]
It's been proven "pure empaths" are sub-optimal. I don't think I need to prove it again here if you have to ressort to name-calling already. People who care can go check the information on the US boards or try by themselves in game, people who don't want to believe it won't believe it no matter what.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is something you can prove, so excuse me for not taking this as fact. I'm sure on paper, in numbers, you can make such claims... but that's not taking other factors into it. Things like human error, and problems with aggro.
First off, keep in mind that an Empath adds damage potential to a team in a number of ways. Assault, if you have it, is barely any part of it. Things like AB (+recharge, and having enough end for consant attacks), RA, Fort (+acc, +dam) all add to the overall damage done. Plus, any time someone is alive, rather than dead, they're doing damage they wouldn't have been. And hey, if you have Assault? Over seven other teams members, on top of the other things, it does add up. So the Emp is giving a lot more than that 7.5% per player.
Next, you have the aggro problem. If you're on a team where you're the only support toon (which is where a primary-only Emp really shines, and is fun to play), or a team that isn't that great, a dead Empath is usually really bad for the team. Attacking, of course, pulls in aggro, and that's just not a good thing for an Emp.
Next we have human error. I don't know if you've actually played an Emp, but it's difficult to keep up all the buffs correctly if you're also attacking (and getting sidetracked dealing with incoming aggro you've created). Last time I brought this up there were arguments that just because I can't doesn't mean no one can... but the thing is, I'm not basing it on myself, because my Emp has never had attacks. I don't know if I could do it. I'm basing it on the fact that Empaths I've teamed with who have attacked a lot have, with maybe one exception, always been sub-par buffers. You can see it a lot in Corruptors, too - people get carried away attacking, and neglect to keep up with the buffs. Now, there maybe be some amazing people with incredible attention spans who can do it, but face reality, rather than looking at the numbers: most people aren't this good. In the end, something gives, and I'd much rather have an Emp who forgets its attacks than forgets its buffs. I invited it to act as support, not for the blasts.
As for the build you posted, it has problems all over the place. Hasten at 49? What if I want both Rez and Temp Invul? How about Vengeance, which is an awesome tool in PvP, and really quite handy in PvE sometimes, too? What if I have different choices in travel powers, and don't want yet another Super Jump/Acro toon? That build is really quite limiting. (Edit: I didn't notice your disclaimer about not paying attention to power/slot levels. Those do matter, though - try coming up with a build that actually takes that into account, because if you can't fit in Hasten until late, that's really not very good for an Emp.)
And one last thing people might want to keep in mind when they claim they'd kick a "pure" Emp from their team, as they're obviously immediately awful players: some of us are PvP-specced Emps, who have no need for attacks, and really do need all those power slots for other things.
[ QUOTE ]
It's been proven "pure empaths" are sub-optimal
[/ QUOTE ]
Where? on whose team? doing what?
I dont actually give a hoot about optimalism at the end of the day.
Nobody is working for anybody.
People do like to have fun and people have the freedom of choice, relax at the end of the day and socialise.
This is not a job.
Your putting peoples choice of the type of character they may want down.
I dont think there is actually a "pure", i've never used the word, i used to have full empathy in my search comment. My empath has controls, thats active defense from psychic mastery and other than that 3 attacks.
I havent called you a name except maybe "Lexce" but i did say i thought you were being stupid and you was.
[ QUOTE ]
Argue as much as you want adding 7,5% final damage to 5 players is the same as doing 130% damage, it won't make it true.
[/ QUOTE ]
Where do ya get your figures from?
[ QUOTE ]
We all know base raids are the bomb and everyone's doing it, but assault isn't that great. Not to mention balanced builds can have assault/tactics too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not one of my toons has room for leaderships really but for PVP its there and i cant respec everytime i want to do pve and on my TA it stacks. The concept that i have given to my defenders are to defend. If someone wants to play a superman or spiderman with their empath they can try.
[ QUOTE ]
and if you really want rez (lol)
[/ QUOTE ]
You make an empath and see if no one asks for res. See if you get kicked from teams because you dont have it, you probably wont but some people will be thinking "why havent you got res?". See if anyone appreciates the fact that your attack chain came before whether or not they got debt, the action times of your attacks plus your retargetting and then healing of someone in trouble may be too late. Thing is people join a team, they may not know what to expect, people dont always play technically correct and many people may find someone with grant invis handy.
If your the only empath in a team going up to an AV and the approach and handling of it is wrong or should you lose the tank mid way people arent going to be loving the wait for the tank to come back from hospital whilst the AV is regenning or pounding the weaker members.
Most teams are sub optimum, most peoples builds are sub optimum and it sometimes may take a "in your opinion" sub optimum build to help sort it out. Alot of people may not even be playing with a real concern for other players (may? more like arent) and sometimes as an empath defender it pays for you not to draw attention to yourself as for one you debuff nothing thats coming at you, your heal aura is weak, you may not have mezz protection, people arent watching your 6 and at the end of the day a defeated defender is helping nobody.
In practise you do whatever your experience leads you into doing, if someone else does things differently thats because their experience led them there.
This is a quote from Blacksly:
[ QUOTE ]
Generally, buffs aren't a problem. You should put them up before battle, and thus not have to worry about them once the battle is started.
[/ QUOTE ]
Doing that is stoppage time, stoppage time is -dps but at the sametime anyone going zzz in battle is -dps, and anyone defeated is -dps. So in an ongoing set of steamrolls keeping up buffs etc is all you may have time for, so when it comes to it people simply need their experience with their usual teams to count.
I often let off an attack rather than do nothing, its laughable but if i was a bubbler or most anyother type of defender id use those attacks more purely because i have ample time. Certain secondary powers are great for a defender to have due to secondary effects more than anything, some secondaries have more of the more useful ones than others but mileages will vary.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
I'll go with Pure Garbage, I really hate "pure" healers.
[/ QUOTE ]
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True, to each his own, you want to be a "pure" Empath, go for it, just don't expect me to keep you on a team for long.
[/ QUOTE ]
And yet a few days ago, you told Syn I was one of the only good Emps you'd teamed with. I've not had an attack in the entire time we've teamed. I don't recall exactly what it was you said, but I'm pretty sure it was something about me being one of the few Emps you'd teamed with who'd really buffed properly, which fits in rather nicely with my argument that Emps who attack much tend to be poor buffers.
I'd kind of like to think this is case closed against those arguing that Empaths who don't take attacks are awful, if I've managed to team with someone who can't stand them for this long, and had him compliment me. And you've clearly not missed all that damage I "should" have been doing.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't recall exactly what it was you said, but I'm pretty sure it was something about me being one of the few Emps you'd teamed with who'd really buffed properly, which fits in rather nicely with my argument that Emps who attack much tend to be poor buffers.
I'd kind of like to think this is case closed against those arguing that Empaths who don't take attacks are awful, if I've managed to team with someone who can't stand them for this long, and had him compliment me. And you've clearly not missed all that damage I "should" have been doing.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're right non damage dealing Empaths aren't awfull, they are just worse then taking another buffing secondary that will actually throw in some damage along with it's buffs/Debuffs. The only reason I want an empath taging along usually is so I can get end buffs, in competent teams you can manage agro so you either don't need constant healing or you do a fumble and die so fast that an empath wont save you.
I see the logic behind not taking the agro so you can safely heal, on the other hand you yourself have admited that you have not tried to play with attacks.
My own experience with empathy (Fire/Empathy controller) was that I could do both, took a lot of concentration, but it really was not a lot more hard then juggling Shadowplays endurance and health.
Shadowplay - Scrapper DM/DA SL 50
Doctor Storm- Brute SS/Elec SL 50
"speed boosts someone in the face" - Cognito
I'm /Energy which has no debuffs, which is a part of why I've not bothered with the attacks. I do have Power Push, which I wouldn't call an attack - it's just knockback, and I generally use it only when duoing, because it's just not needed otherwise. Not all secondaries are particularly useful, keep that in mind. (She was made Emp/Energy based on concept, and also before I really knew the game. I'm sure I'm not the only person in that boat.)
I know you don't need masses of healing on high-level, good teams, which is why, as you might note, I said nothing about healing in any of my posts. My main concern is buffing, and keeping up a Fort cycle, and keeping squishies CMed if you're trying to do it, is very difficult if you're busy doing other things.
I know you did have a Fire/Emp, but you stopped playing it at a rather low level. You've never had fully-slotted Fort to try and keep on four players at a time whilst also doing everything else you needed to be doing. I recently got Syn to make and level an Empath, and he really gained a new-found appreciation for how easy it is to get distracted from a full Fort Cycle, and trying to keep important people CMed. Once you have all your recharges in it, Fort is up every 22 seconds with Hasten, every 30 seconds without, just to give you an idea.
As far as aggro goes, I have a Thermal Corruptor. She attacks as well as deals with buffing and healing, so I do know what that's like. She was purely single-target until around level 38 when I picked up the AoE debuff, and then later respecced into more of an AoE build, but even as purely single target, I was pulling in a lot of aggro. I almost never die on my Emp, but my Thermal dies a fair bit. Obviously her heals are weaker, but it's not just a matter of staying alive, it's also a matter of being able to pay attention to the rest of the team's needs. If you're backing off and using your aura heal on yourself, and trying to kill off the mobs that are after you, that's time where you're not paying full attention to the rest of the team. Logically, you're not going to be doing your best right at that point.
Now, I realise, in a perfect team you've got everything taunted and nothing's going after the support toons and so on, but let's face it: people, and teams, are nowhere near perfect. Support toons do get aggro, and often enough, people won't come help you with it. You can't plan only for the perfect team, you have to plan realistically.
And my point still stands that you, a self-admitted hater of exactly the kind of build I've been playing with you for over a year, never noticed I was lacking attacks, and in fact have complimented me multiple times. I still think that speaks volumes about how unimportant an Empath's secondary can really be.
[ QUOTE ]
My own experience with empathy (Fire/Empathy controller) was that I could do both, took a lot of concentration, but it really was not a lot more hard then juggling Shadowplays endurance and health.
[/ QUOTE ]
What level was your Fire/Emp (that you had all your Empathy experience with) before you rerolled it because you couldn't stand playing Emp? 20, 22? I can't recall, but it certainly wasn't high enough to have a wider appreciation for the intricacies of playing an Empath, you had a 'troller with a handful of heals. Trying to compare constant buffing with "not detoggling myself" and "not dying" - on a Scrapper - is laughable.
[ QUOTE ]
I see the logic behind not taking the agro so you can safely heal, on the other hand you yourself have admited that you have not tried to play with attacks.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've play my Empath with attacks - Charged Bolts, Lightning Bolt, Short Circuit. In 32 levels of playing her, on 1 (one, uno, une, ein) PuG have I been able to play as both a buffer and attacker in a decent-size team without either side being sacrificed. The rest of the time I buff first, and blast rarely - if the team wanted damage, they'd get a blaster; I'm there to make sure they get where they were going faster, and debt-free. You are definitely not missing an Empath's damage, I have first-hand experience of what Empath damage is like - cite all the "US posts" you want, even with 3 damage SOs my contribution is limited to taking out the occasional minion and end-draining tougher targets.
It's not just a matter of playing your attacks inbetween Forting the next person in the cycle (and making sure you have line-of-sight to them), and keeping the squishies CM'd - to a degree, you have to be able to read the next 5 seconds of battle, because in the time it takes an attack animation to play out you could have lost half your team - and I've seen this on both sides of the spectrum. It'd be super-swell if playing an empath was buff-buff-buff-blast-blast-blast, but it really isn't in any kind of everyday situation I've been in. Tanks don't always have aggro, Scrappers don't always protect the squishies, Blasters don't always take out the right target, other Defenders don't always buff/debuff when needed, and 'trollers don't always have everything under control - when you play an Empath, you not only have to take on your own responsibilities, you have to make up for everyone else's shortcomings as well.
If you want to make an Empath for a specific team setup, or only plan on playing an Empath in small teams, you can afford to make a build that focuses more on attacks - and that's fine and dandy, but you're not experiencing life as an Empath. You don't want to take Resurrect because "who dies ololz" - good for you, the rest of us will be over here in reality when you want to make the journey across.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
This pure empath debates hacks me off. You want to grab some attacks? Fine. You want to slot your attacks, maybe skimp on Primary slotting or travel/stamina etc...? Your choice. Want to grab all your Primary and stock up on things like Leadership etc...? Go for it, your toon, your choice.
But I'll say this, I will not willingly take an Empath with a buff-and-blast build in to PvP. It simply will not do a good enough job. Nor will it in PvE when you're fighting +3's and +4's IMO.
You're all of course playing your Empaths all wrong.
The only true Empath path lies in the path of a Emp/Dark Offender.
---------------------------------------------
Exported from Ver: 1.7.6.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder - (http://sherksilver.coldfront.net/index.php)
---------------------------------------------
Name: Lady Kat
Level: 50
Archetype: Defender
Primary: Empathy
Secondary: Dark Blast
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Healing Aura==> Rechg(1) Rechg(3) Rechg(3) Heal(5) Heal(5)
01) --> Dark Blast==> Acc(1) Acc(7) Dmg(7) Dmg(9) Dmg(9) EndRdx(11)
02) --> Gloom==> Acc(2) Acc(11) Dmg(13) Dmg(13) Dmg(15) EndRdx(15)
04) --> Moonbeam==> Acc(4) Dmg(17) Dmg(17) Dmg(19)
06) --> Air Superiority==> Acc(6) Acc(19) Dmg(21) Dmg(21) Dmg(23) EndRdx(23)
08) --> Swift==> Run(8)
10) --> Hurdle==> Jump(10)
12) --> Hasten==> Rechg(12) Rechg(25) Rechg(25)
14) --> Fly==> EndRdx(14) Fly(27) Fly(27) Fly(29)
16) --> Tenebrous Tentacles==> Acc(16) Acc(29) TH_DeBuf(31) TH_DeBuf(31) TH_DeBuf(31) EndRdx(33)
18) --> Recovery Aura==> Rechg(18) Rechg(33) Rechg(33) EndMod(34) EndMod(34)
20) --> Night Fall==> Acc(20) Acc(34) Dmg(36) Dmg(36) Dmg(36) EndRdx(37)
22) --> Stamina==> EndMod(22) EndMod(37) EndMod(37)
24) --> Assault==> EndRdx(24) EndRdx(39) EndRdx(39)
26) --> Regeneration Aura==> Rechg(26) Rechg(39) Rechg(40) Heal(40) Heal(40) Heal(42)
28) --> Torrent==> Acc(28) Acc(42) KB_Dist(42)
30) --> Tactics==> EndRdx(30) EndRdx(43) EndRdx(43) TH_Buf(43) TH_Buf(45)
32) --> Dark Pit==> Acc(32) Acc(45)
35) --> Life Drain==> Acc(35) Acc(45)
38) --> Blackstar==> Rechg(38) Rechg(46) Rechg(46) Dmg(46) Dmg(48) Dmg(48)
41) --> Oppressive Gloom==> Acc(41)
44) --> Dark Consumption==> Acc(44)
47) --> Soul Drain==> Acc(47) Rechg(48) Rechg(50) Rechg(50) TH_Buf(50)
49) --> Vengeance==> Heal(49)
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Sprint==> EndRdx(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Acc(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
01) --> Vigilance==> Empty(1)
---------------------------------------------
This is a rough estimate (ignore the levels of the slots (tm)) of my other Emp/Dark, after I got the opportunity to import her from the US. My other one is a "Pure Empath" quite much like the one posted earlier. Both are at level 37 at the moment.
Guess which one is more fun to play.
[b][color=blue]Coldest War /[color=red]/ Omega Patient[/b]
[url="http://www.the-cow.net/"][color=red]The CoW Network (Blog) /[/url][url="http://www.collegeofwar.com/"][color=blue]/ College of War[/url]
I have a lvl 50 emp and lvl 50 therm. I usually so busy buffing/healing/debuffing that I rarely ever get an attack off. The emp & thermal power sets are a full time job, so to speak, I shouldnt be expected to throw any attacks.
The 50's
Ruby Dragon - ill/emp Troller
Rain Phoenix - fire/ss Tank
Seth Darkstar - rad/dark Def
Sorrow Phoenix - dm/reg Scrap
Por Siempre - ice/therm Corr
Prized Dragon - WS
Mari Darksoul - nrg/ice Blas
Nawty - fire/kin Troller
Macula - ice/fire Tank
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First off, keep in mind that an Empath adds damage potential to a team in a number of ways. Assault, if you have it, is barely any part of it. Things like AB (+recharge, and having enough end for consant attacks), RA, Fort (+acc, +dam) all add to the overall damage done. Plus, any time someone is alive, rather than dead, they're doing damage they wouldn't have been. And hey, if you have Assault? Over seven other teams members, on top of the other things, it does add up. So the Emp is giving a lot more than that 7.5% per player.
[/ QUOTE ]But an empath without assault is giving all the other things, apart for that +7,5%. And due to the nature of damage buffs, that 7,5% will actually be less effective on people with fort.
Personally, I won't mind if you have a "pure" build, but I could never stand playing one myself.
And to comment on the US thread:
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Edit: One of them wants Dark Pit, that power's so [censored]!
[/ QUOTE ] It's a stun, with proper slotting it can be used to drop squishies' acro in PvP. And it's also quite a decent survivability tool in solo PvE.
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This pure empath debates hacks me off. You want to grab some attacks? Fine. You want to slot your attacks, maybe skimp on Primary slotting or travel/stamina etc...? Your choice. Want to grab all your Primary and stock up on things like Leadership etc...? Go for it, your toon, your choice.
But I'll say this, I will not willingly take an Empath with a buff-and-blast build in to PvP. It simply will not do a good enough job. Nor will it in PvE when you're fighting +3's and +4's IMO.
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I don't think we're discussing about builds here, rather than how people play those builds. My empath is planning to take all of primary and slot it, but I will also have room for couple attacks (2 holds) which I may end up using occasionally. Naturally in teams my priorities are 1. heal, 2.buff 3. if everybody are buffed and nobody is dying - blast.
I don't like leadership pool and will have room for couple more usful powers if I don't take it. Only reason to take leadership would be vengeance, but so far I havent bothered because I dislike assault and tactics. Tactics especially feels pretty useless for reasons other people already pointed out.
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But an empath without assault is giving all the other things, apart for that +7,5%.
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The point that's been made, and that you seem to be happily skipping over, is that an empath without assault and with the uber attacks all Empaths apparently get, will not necessarily be giving all the other things because they won't be as focused as dishing out the buffs quite so critically and precisely. Don't just look at one part of the discussion in isolation, you have to look at the wider topic - given how active an Empath can be, any passive assistance that can be given with a simple click toggle is a benefit. As pointed out in the US thread, against + levels an Empath isn't doing squat for damage without external assistance.
It's interesting to note that no-one's really commented on why, exactly, a PvE Empath needs Stamina.
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And due to the nature of damage buffs, that 7,5% will actually be less effective on people with fort.
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No Empath can Fort a whole team, and that 7.5% + Tactics works just fine on 'troller pets (barring PA, naturally). Then again, I don't believe any team needs more than one Emp, provided that Emp is doing their job properly.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
Naturally leadership gives a benefit, but the size of the benefit is up for everyone to decide. I don't think that assault and tactics are so important that I couldnt live without them.
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I don't think we're discussing about builds here, rather than how people play those builds. My empath is planning to take all of primary and slot it, but I will also have room for couple attacks (2 holds) which I may end up using occasionally. Naturally in teams my priorities are 1. heal, 2.buff 3. if everybody are buffed and nobody is dying - blast.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, for a lot of people, it's easy enough to fit in a couple of secondary powers - if you're not going for a full PvP-spec, or don't like Leadership, that certainly makes things easier. And I have to issue with that. I certainly don't intend to kick such people from teams on sight, as some people seem to suggest about those without attacks.
My feeling about Empath secondaries has always been that if you have slots free for part of your secondary, then grab utility powers first, not straight attacks. If it can be used for support, or to protect yourself if a mob does come after you, that can be handy. So things like holds and stuns can be really nice. The benefit I find to utility powers like that is that unlike attacks, you don't need to keep firing them off to really have an effect. One hold to help stack on a difficult boss might be all you need to do before the other team members have it under control. It's no huge distraction.
And I can see the argument of people who take a couple of attacks just for those times when they are on the ideal team, and it's no issue to blast a tiny bit before the next Fort. Personally, I won't do it, because as mentioned above, I PvP with my Emp and need the power choices. That, and I don't like the idea of building for a situation I often don't find myself in -- I've always done a lot of pick-up teaming on my Empath, and generally in those you find that things aren't perfect, you're kept busy, and aggro can be a really bad thing because no one's going to come help you. If you mostly team with your three friends or your SG or something, build to fit in with them, that's fine. (Another reason I wouldn't kick someone with a number of attacks on sight -- I don't know why they've chosen to build that way, and they might have a very good reason.)
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I dont see nothing wrong with a pacifistic type of character. Its a nice option.
If ya think they are lazy, go nuts, be suicidal and give them some work to do.
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True, to each his own, you want to be a "pure" Empath, go for it, just don't expect me to keep you on a team for long.
(That said in lower levels going empathy heavy makes sense even in my book)
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People have a right to build a toon that conceptually suits them and no one has a right to judge it. I personally like team orientated players and the empath set is one of the most team orientated.
I personally dont appreciate a empath twiddling his thumbs waiting for someone to need a heal when he could be buffing.
As for one doing a quarter to a half the damage of a blaster lost in their attack chain whilst buffs and heals could be used and for the overall betterment of the team, then i am just not too keen.
The game is called "city of heroes" and not "city of thug minded damage dealers".
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.