It wasn't just the fact that the heroes were lvl 54 that was the problem and forced teams into pulling, it was the insane regen rate that they had post I7. I remeber doing some RSF runs that had perfectly balanced teams where everyone knew what they were doing, were fully buffed, stocked up with shivans and nukes and pulling was still the only way to get it done. I think that coupled with the heroes in the last mission being a lvl lower and also having their regen rate lowered the RSF is a lot easier than it was when it first appeared.
I would rather have it back to the way it was when the challenge seamed more epic, and quite a few people I know agree with me.
And the first time I got my badge was in a team of 7 with a Dom and a Stalker before the nerf to the heroes.
The first mission is now more of a pain than the other 4.
[ QUOTE ]
It wasn't just the fact that the heroes were lvl 54 that was the problem and forced teams into pulling, it was the insane regen rate that they had post I7.
[/ QUOTE ]
Both 'cel and I were part of the first team to complete the RSF on Union - that would be after the huge AV buff, and before the subsequent nerf. The team was not optimal in any way (two MMs and a stalker for one thing, with the majority of the team never having played together), and we completed the RSF not by pulling, but by charging headlong into the FP with a few nukes. Pulling was never the "only" way to do it - but every run after that that was completed by pulling was markedly faster than those completed by rushing.
I think the RSF is a lot easier these days - which is good, and which is bad. The first incarnation of the RSF forced everyone to play out of their skin to complete it; subsequent watering-down has made the RSF more accessible to more people, but reduced the challenge accordingly. Que sera sera.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
I have to take my hat off to that feat, as someone who played the RSF whilst it was at it's toughest I can appreciate your accomplishment.
Unfortunately the majority of teams I was a part of simply had no option other than to pull, we wouldn't last a minute with a full on charge.
I do miss the epic feel of the RSF how it was but at the same time it is now available to all. I think it has been a while since we have seen demands like "we will only take a /stone brute as all the others are too squishy" This change can only be positive for the majority of players.
[ QUOTE ]
"we will only take a /stone brute as all the others are too squishy"
[/ QUOTE ]
I think it was after 20 successfull runs or so that we actually brought a lvl 45 Stone brute for the first time. Never used one before and never felt the need to have one even before the nerf. Needing one for success was an unfortunate urban myth that was actually believed by some players.
For your first RSF run, yes, you might need pulling or shivans/temps. After than that... I have a hard time believing experienced players can't beat at least one 53 AV in 5mn (the time 5x4 purple insps last), regardless of team set-up.
4 lucks is basically Elude in PVE, for 1mn. Having Elude too is good, but having RES or +HP on top on that defense works better, because when you're in melee with 8 angry lvl 53 heroes, they WILL hit you. Many stalkers played on my RSF teams, those who don't kite always die at least once, sometimes more, from the AoEs. Which doesn't mean they're useless, but they're not as useful as a Brute.
My dom hit 45 and I finally got the chance to get 2 doms in one RSF. Another good thing doms can bring : in domination, they can perma-hold a lvl 53 AV. (and 2 kin means perma-domination \o/ )
[ QUOTE ]
Many stalkers played on my RSF teams, those who don't kite always die at least once, sometimes more, from the AoEs. Which doesn't mean they're useless, but they're not as useful as a Brute.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unless someone on the team has Vengeance, in which case the occasional death could prove a great tactical advantage.
It does beg the question, why are you plunging straight into melee with all 8 FP members? That amount of AoEs will likely take out more than just the Stalker. So far as kiting goes, I've always found it best (with certain exceptions) for the team to pick a target and huddle around and form a healing blanket, so that you're only ever a fraction of a second away from a heal - kiting, for whichever AT, usually leads to isolation from the main group, and a swift death from any loose aggro. Back to my earlier point, if someone manages to 'plant in the healing blanket, then it's almost certain that everyone will be in range for Vengeance.
From my experiences, and I appreciate that they may well differ to anyone else's, I find it's best to shut off your self-preservation instincts before the last mission of the RSF - fighting may certainly get you killed, but flight will get you killed a lot more swiftly.
[ QUOTE ]
After than that... I have a hard time believing experienced players can't beat at least one 53 AV in 5mn (the time 5x4 purple insps last), regardless of team set-up.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have a hard time believing that experienced players feel they need 20 purple insps to do a mission that can be completed much more effectively in another manner, but them's the breaks.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:[/color]<hr />
Unless someone on the team has Vengeance, in which case the occasional death could prove a great tactical advantage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Specific cookie-cutter teams? No thanks. I'm picking friends, not builds.
[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:[/color]<hr />
It does beg the question, why are you plunging straight into melee with all 8 FP members?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because it's fun, because it works. Pulling doesn't make sense and isn't fun. There's regular missions if you want to beat on one AV at a time.
[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:[/color]<hr />
That amount of AoEs will likely take out more than just the Stalker.
[/ QUOTE ]
Brutes can handle it, doms/MM/cors are out of range.
[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:[/color]<hr />
I have a hard time believing that experienced players feel they need 20 purple insps to do a mission that can be completed much more effectively in another manner, but them's the breaks.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're talking about using Vengeance... which is exactly equal to purple insps... and pulling... which takes longer to set-up, is boring and can fail. "Much more effectively?" That doesn't make sense, they don't die magically faster because you pull them 1 on 1, in fact you'll take more time because :
- everyone has to go to a set point
- someone has to pull
- (assuming the pull worked) the AV has to come to the point where everyone is
- everyone fights AV
- return to first step
While a charge goes :
- pop lucks
- charge
- kill, and every AV after the first one dies faster because the AoEs are lowering their health too
Even if you were on a team without AoEs (highly unlikely), you don't magically get a +500% damage boost because you pulled, it seems quite obvious you'll kill faster if all you do is fighting as opposed to pull - fight - pull - fight.
Everyone has 20 insps slots. Why WOULDN'T you use insps? That's crazy. The game is balanced around inspirations.
You're talking a lot, but you're not adressing the main point. How exactly is a stalker more useful than a brute ?
- Less damage
- Less HP
- Less resistance (unless DA)
- Less aggro control
"Stalkers are good because they die so we can use Vengeance"... nuh-uh. Stalkers' role isn't to die for someone to use a specific power, stalker's role is to assassinate.
[ QUOTE ]
Specific cookie-cutter teams?
[/ QUOTE ]
You have to have a cookie-cutter build to take Vengeance now? Interesting viewpoint.
[ QUOTE ]
Because it's fun, because it works.
[/ QUOTE ]
Chewing through purple insps in order to defeat X and Y might be fun for you, but there are those of us out there who don't need or want to have to resort to insp-popping to get the job done - and take it from me, you can certainly rush the last mission and win without insps. Each to their own.
[ QUOTE ]
Pulling doesn't make sense and isn't fun. There's regular missions if you want to beat on one AV at a time.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Isn't fun" is a fairly subjective viewpoint, but I've learnt not to expect any sort of objectivity from your posts - just so you know for future reference, it's not a convincing argument.
As far as pulling goes - it makes perfect sense and provides a high degree of challenge. The entire purpose of pulling is to remove elements of a difficult scenario in order to vastly improve the odds in your team's favour; by definition, the Final 8 mission is the quintessential environment to attempt pulling. For the player attempting the pull, it's a great test of skill and ability - and a degree of luck, naturally. Not fun? Like I said, each to their own.
FYI, the best pulls in the RSF bring at least 2 or 3 Heroes.
[ QUOTE ]
Brutes can handle it, doms/MM/cors are out of range.
[/ QUOTE ]
What are they doing out of range (other than chugging down insps), exactly? Except for Hero nukes et al, a team functions far more effectively in close proximity; separated teams lead to members getting isolated, and getting killed.
Only once have I ever attempted to MM from range in the RSF, and that once taught me that trying to stay out on the periphery is not a viable option if you wish to a) contribute and b) stay alive.
[ QUOTE ]
You're talking about using Vengeance... which is exactly equal to purple insps...
[/ QUOTE ]
Vengeance is +Def +ToHit +Dam and +Heal, actually. It also requires that someone dies, which - at the last time I checked - wasn't the case with insps, on both points. It's also a powerset choice, not a little purple crutch.
[ QUOTE ]
and pulling... which takes longer to set-up, is boring and can fail.
[/ QUOTE ]
All the runs I've completed by pulling have been markedly faster than the runs completed by rushing - that's not propaganda, that's my own experience. The set-up might take marginally longer (clearing what, one more Longbow spawn? 
), but the time taken overall dips dramatically.
[ QUOTE ]
- everyone has to go to a set point
[/ QUOTE ]
People generally have to assemble at a set point regardless, I don't consider that a spot 70 yards further away from the steps adds an inordinately long delay to the proceedings.
[ QUOTE ]
- someone has to pull
[/ QUOTE ]
Which has already been decided before the last mission, and depending on the experience on the part of the puller, takes little to no time at all.
[ QUOTE ]
- (assuming the pull worked) the AV has to come to the point where everyone is
[/ QUOTE ]
Which again, takes about 5-10 seconds - or 2 if it's Synapse. 
[ QUOTE ]
- everyone fights AV
[/ QUOTE ]
Everyone fights one AV whilst any few additionals are either ignored or taunted away. With minimal - if any - losses, everyone then turns on the next, and repeat until the pulled group are no more.
[ QUOTE ]
- return to first step
[/ QUOTE ]
Everyone moves the 5 footsteps back out of LOS, and the puller selects a new target? Again, we're not talking about a time-intensive process, here.
[ QUOTE ]
While a charge goes :
- pop lucks
- charge
- kill,
[/ QUOTE ]
Once more, there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth in the lands for the lack of a rolleyes emote on these forums.
[ QUOTE ]
and every AV after the first one dies faster because the AoEs are lowering their health too
[/ QUOTE ]
Did you manage to get some special copy of CoV where the Final 8 stand in a neat little group and let you AoE them? I ask because in my experience they tend not to group up - a few will concentrate on the melee toons, and any other Heroes that happen to be hit by these almighty AoEs will quickly turn their focus onto the squishy AoE-caster, and despatch them in a few shots if they're stood on the perimeter of the group - no matter how many purples they've got in their pocket.
[ QUOTE ]
Even if you were on a team without AoEs (highly unlikely),
[/ QUOTE ]
Given that most of the attacks available in CoV are single-target, why do you consider this 'unlikely'? The few bits of splash-damage here and there are not really worth counting on, and certainly don't weaken the Heroes to any real degree - especially when a decent proportion of those who are more likely to be hit by them have Overload-type-powers that don't kick in until 25% HP-or-so.
Even playing Bots/Dark in the last mission, a powerset that excels at AoE damage, I rarely found that Rushing the Final 8 played to my strengths. The most splashback damage that was ever done was to knock about 10% from Citadel, and my bots were systematically taken apart for their troubles - loose aggro sinks ships.
[ QUOTE ]
you don't magically get a +500% damage boost because you pulled, it seems quite obvious you'll kill faster if all you do is fighting as opposed to pull - fight - pull - fight.
[/ QUOTE ]
You kill faster if you're all focusing on one opponent. You kill faster if you're all upright. You kill faster if you're not trying to heal and debuff and rebuff whilst still trying to maintain a high damage output. Prolonged fighting exhausts reserves, and in the case of stray aggro or an unlucky hit, can lead to critical failure - 2 teammates dropping against 3 Heroes at the wrong time can still be turned around; 2 teammates dropping unexpectedly against 8 Heroes can lead to a wipe.
Trekking back from hospital takes time too.
[ QUOTE ]
Everyone has 20 insps slots. Why WOULDN'T you use insps? That's crazy. The game is balanced around inspirations.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying that you should or shouldn't use Insps, but I would consider that having to take multiple insps over an extended period - to the point that you consider this to be a good strategy and not only employ it regularly, but advocate it to others openly - demonstrates a deficiency in your skill or tactics.
The first time I ran the RSF, I popped a whole bag of insps, of all different colours. After a few runs, I had to buy more Insp collectors for our VG, as the RSF (and last mission especially) had proven to be such a good source of top-tier inspirations. By approaching the last mission without the "must take 20 purple insps: F1, F1, F1, F1; F2, F2, F2, F2; F3, F3, etc" mindset, you get a far greater challenge; myself, I find challenge to be fun. Again, each to their own.
[ QUOTE ]
- Less damage
[/ QUOTE ]
Stalkers do less damage than Brutes? This must be why Brutes are so reviled and despised in the PvP Zones, for their overwhelming burst damage, amirite?
Generally: Brutes do more damage over extended periods, Stalkers do better burst damage - depending on sets, of course. In a situation where you're only dealing with 1-3 Heroes, it's not too difficult for Stalkers to maintain constant damage and stay alive.
[ QUOTE ]
- Less HP
[/ QUOTE ]
I'e never found this to be an issue, seeing as you don't expect the Stalker to tank the Hero. If you do, this may be where you're going wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
- Less resistance (unless DA)
[/ QUOTE ]
In small groups of heroes, Stalkers won't be taking enough damage for this to matter - any damage taken should quickly be healed back by the melee healing blanket. I've heard a crazy rumour that certain Corruptor sets have res shields, you might not be aware of this and might consider looking into it?
[ QUOTE ]
- Less aggro control
[/ QUOTE ]
Not all Brutes are built to hold aggro, much less can hold aggro from multiple Heroes. Do all the Brutes you do the RSF with have to be specced for aggro control? What's that noise? Could it be the Cookie-Cutter Train choo-chooing along the tracks? 
As far as Stalkers' worth vs. Brutes' worth - I've never stated that Stalkers are better than Brutes for the RSF, so please don't try to put arguments into my mouth. I have said that there is a useful role for Stalkers to play in the SF; just because you don't appreciate that role does not cause it to cease existing. Tactics come down to team composition: if you have a team that works better with one strategy, you take that strategy. Undervaluing an AT because you'd rather blunder headfirst in a purple haze seems extremely limiting.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
I get both points, what lexce is saying and you syn, with lexce method its isnt a spread team its just the taunter(s) seperate from team i am guessing with the rest of the team altogether which is sometimes how i do things as my tankies especially with lusca. I'll get hit by 3 legs if necessary so that the teams dont get hit at all but with the closeness that some Heroes might be brought to (heavy taunt control, use of environment and aoe immobs) they can share a truck load of aoe debuffs unlike those lusca legs.
I wouldnt rule anyones method out for possibilities as i see potential in them but not with any given team and what matters most is completion (not fun 
) so on that ya logically choose the right strategy.
The lowest end costing ranged attack (so not snipe) i think may make the best pulls, i dont know if anyone else has tried it, i could be talking balls but i am suspicious of it. My sonic doesnt have a snipe and i was thinking of turning shriek into one till i saw its end use but something like neutrino bolt would be best to test it with i dunno. But in order to keep aggro down it be nice for me to find out, just dont shoot the one in the middle.
My brute isnt high enough to try lexce's strategy but with the amount of rads in the vg i think i could do ok and i dont know anyother brutes that taunt.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
Problem is you don't need to pull since they nerfed heroes to lvl 53, and everyone can have defense with Lucks.
Not to mention capped defense isn't that great in melee against 8 53s, you get 2-shotted a lot. It's better to have capped defense and some resistance/high HP.
Stalkers aren't useless, but most of the time having a brute in that spot would be better... better damage output (full fury all the time against AVs, even when the bug will be fixed it'll still be 90%), better defense, better aggro control. It'd be nice to see stalkers get something extra to make them wanted.
[/ QUOTE ]
You didn't need to pull when they were 54, either. Much like before, some teams are going to be safe enough to just rush everything quickly (although it's now a bit easier than it was, and more teams can get away with it), but teams that don't have particular setups may well do better pulling. Some teams crash and burn on the Vindicators, and they were never 54. SGs that want to do a run but don't have anything near an ideal mixture of ATs/powersets, for instance, will likely still benefit, as will teams who perhaps aren't very experienced, or aren't made up of really good players. One good puller, and it's pretty easy to explain to the rest of the team to wait for the heroes, and attack the one or two that show up. I've seen firsthand what trying to take players who aren't so good (or aren't good at listening to instructions) head first into the heroes can be like, and it's not pretty.
As for def, yes everyone can use purples, but you've got limited insp space, and they don't last that long. Being a Stalker offers permanently high def. That's a bit like saying carrying some green insps is just as good as having a self-heal available all the time.
Again, the way I see it is just that while there's an ideal team for everything, as long as it's playable by any reasonable team, then there's not really a problem. And to pull it back on topic, this goes for both Stalkers and Dominators (and you could argue MMs, too, which I quite like having along) - while they're not the ideal thing for a couple of specific fights in one SF, this is balanced out by the fact that they excel in other areas of the game. As long as it's not impossible to take Doms along (or Stalkers, or MMs), and they can contribute something (and I'm firmly of the opinion that they can, and I say this coming from an SG that has more Doms than anything else) then I don't see it as a huge problem.
The only issue I can see would be if there are people who are small-minded enough to refuse to invite anyone who isn't perfect for it, in their minds. In that case, set up a run yourself, or with your friends or SG, and ditch the people who are being silly about it - plenty of people seem to be running it these days, and I know that even during the early days - at least on Union - people of all ATs were coming along on the publicly organised runs.