Is the MM the only AT that doesnt need stamina?
By
Carnifax,
Posted on: 2006-08-11 17:39 in Masterminds
Hi Doc, my merc/ff is fine without stamina at lvl 27, I carry a few blues to help with initial set up at the start of a mission and if all goes well I get through it without worrying about my endurance.
What does cause a problem (normally when fighting EB's or Heroes) is when having to resummon and apply bubbles mid combat, in these instances I wish I had Stamina. Dropping Assault and Dispersion Bubble helps but then I find that my mercs die very quickly....especially if my insp tray is empty (and if a pesky flamethrower is hanging around!)
I do think that by taking the medicine pool and leadership, masterminds will struggle to get the fitness pool into the build. For the time being though I'm happy to run without Stamina.
As for other AT's, my claws/regen seems fine without at the moment although he's only lvl 14, on the other hand my spines/regen who is at lvl 32 does need it on protracted fights (especially when running quills and spamming spine burst).
There are plenty of players out there who slot for end red instead of going down the fitness route. I do know that there are MM's that need to take the fitness pool asap (/dark possibly and /poison) but there are other AT's that don't need it but if they do it can be a nice bonus.
Recently I rolled a Sonic/Elec blaster and in the early levels I've found that I don't need to pop many blue insps, so maybe thats another that doesn't need Stamina but it might help later in the build for long fights.
Some interesting thoughts you've raised there Doc [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
No AT needs stamina. However, personally I won't ever level a character without it, and there are only few rare cases in which I'd consider respeccing into stamina-less builds.
I can say that my MM can still run out of END easily with stamina, in any harder fight (Hard boss/EB/AV/Big group).
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No AT needs stamina. However, personally I won't ever level a character without it, and there are only few rare cases in which I'd consider respeccing into stamina-less builds.
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Totally agree.
You say spending a whole powerpool on Stamina isn't worth it, i say spending extra slots for end reds for insignificant powers like summoning and upgrading heanchies whereas those same slots could have gone to something more useful isn't worth it. [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
If you can run without Stamina and are happy with it, thats all that matters.
@SinghMC
You've hit the nail on the head there Max, stamina-less builds are fine until you come up against a Boss, EB/AV...long protracted fights with 1 or 2 blues in the tray and you need to resummon a pet or two, and then equip them, buff them....no chance. As there are a few skippable powers in FF (at later levels), I'll maybe go for fitness instead [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
I ran a Robots/Traps MM to 42 without Stamina, then I gleefully respecced into it. Putting down all those traps became costly after a while, and you need a lot of Web Grenades in the late gamwe to keep bosses/AVs from running around and away from your traps.
My Thugs/Dark got Stamina at 20, but she is a Blastermind ans shoots just as much as her minions. It's great!
In reply to comments made by various people:
Hard Boss/EB/Av fights - never have run out of end in all the ones I have faced, could just be to do with my play style but Im not sure hence raising this thread. In all fights I run Assault, Tactics, Dispersion Bubble and Scorpion shield. Hover is on when needed against certain EB's to keep me out of melee range. I dont bubble all henches only the Assault bot but I do tend to spam aid other/repair as needed and also depending on EB force bolt, and the Hold and AoE immob from the patron pool gets spammed as well.
@SinghMC I would have to say that with my build I couldnt find somewhere more useful for the slots that have endreds in them now if I picked up stamina. With stamina I would have to say that I would have more worthless slots in powers, for example I currently have fly six slotted because I couldnt find somewhere more useful for the slots so it has 2 End Red and 4 Fly Speed in it. If I went for the stamina route I would probably have at least 10 extra slots that would be wasted, I would 6 slot resucitate from medicine with them because I couldnt find somewhere better for them.
@MaX being pedantic FTW [img]/uk/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
I accpet that no AT needs stamina however it does make some much more effective than others say a Spines/DA scrapper assuming they have Quills OG and CoF
With my Mercs/poison I tend to run out of end horribly fast on elites/sgs/or AVs.
But then the poison set is quite an aggressive one in my opinion, I want to throw out those slows,holds,-regens as wuickly as possible and as often as possible [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
But im not sure stamina would make much of a difference over better slotting with endreds.
I don't do much with my MM, other than when I'm summoning/upgrading. Stamina doesn't help me there (something like marmalade power would be way more useful), as it only ups recovery, which only helps after I've upgraded. I've got more than enough slots going spare to chuck a few end reductions about, so to me that's way more acceptable than forking out on two powers that won't make any difference to me for one that'll make a smidgin of difference. That's just me, though.
DON'T eat muffins while I'm developing you.
Pants! Turkey Magnates! A man in a box! Rogue AI! Come one, come all, to arc ID 10107 - It's [i]'Not as long as some other arcs'[/i]!
Stamina helps when summoning/upgrading. I had 1 endredux in each, except Equip Robots with 3 endredux, and no Stamina. After respec, I have 1 endredux in each except Assault Bot, and my end dips less during summoning now.
Summoning takes time, time during which Stamina is at work.
My Necro/Dark MM doesn't have Stamina. In fact with him and my Kinetics defender being duo levelled a few months ago I noticed two other interesting side effects of the Staminaless build.
1) Not enough slots. In the 20s (where both still are) I found I'm desperate for slots. I've taken all the good powers as part of my would-be-Stamina run. I just can't really slot them. The two pre-Stamina powers basically give you "their" slots in the teens to slot the normally useful powers you get at 16 & / or 18. I'm sure this sorts itself in the 30s.
2) You get most of the fun powers in the teens that normally you've to leave until the 20s. And the early 20s have 3 "no new powers" slots at 20, 22 & 24. So I found myself not knowing what to take with them really. Weird hitting 24 and not knowing what on earth you want. Sure you can get into the Power Pools but they tend to be functional powers rather than exciting fun ones. So I found myself less than entuished by dinging 24, for example.
Just two experiences I had with Staminaless builds really. It's interesting given that normally the 20s are such a time for getting all those powers you've been longing for since before the Travel & Stamina run.
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And the early 20s have 3 "no new powers" slots at 20, 22 & 24.
[/ QUOTE ]Fearsome stare at L20, no?
You know I'm getting sick of saying "MaX is right" all the time!
But you are indeed! [img]/uk/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Thats what I did with my 20 power.
The lack of slots for it has hit me hard though, its still not where I'd like it slot-wise (2 acc, 1 fear, 3 recharge).
Plus in my last respec I managed to forget to slot TP at all too. On a stamina-less MM build! And I've so many other things I want to slot instead (my lich for example) I won't be able to spare any until the 30s (currently 26). And by then I'll have 2 more powers looking for slots too,
I'm an end hog, particularly for an MM so I need Stamina, and now with Swift going to provide a speed boost to flight powers as well... [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]
I have Stamina with my Thugs/Dark MM for the following reasons:
Shadow Fall
Darkest Night
Assault
Tactics
(Maneuvers when I get it)
Twilight Grasp
+ summoning/buffing
Because I have respecced out of Empty Clips (end hog, and my MMs job is not to personally cause damage, his job is to _facilitate_ the damage), that gave me an extra power slot. Tar Patch was not really a useful part of my build, so that went too. I won't be taking my hold, for much the same reasons, so I will be running 4 toggles constantly, with a 5th whenever there is a boss around. This requires Stamina to be workable, IMO... [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
(But no, not _every_ build requires Stamina. My Robots/FF MM doesn't have it.)
Mr Jingles the horrid clown,
wears yellow on a spotted gown.
Without tar patch,
sticky as starch,
or fearsome stare,
the dreadful nightmare,
he'll be a clown not at all ruthless,
especially in Warburg where blasters are defenceless.
lol! Nice one Pistol...except for the Fearsome Stare (which I _am_ keeping - it's Petrifying Gaze I was referring to not taking). And PvP? Not very interested anyway, especially with Jingles. I have perfectly suitable Brutes, Scrappers and Dominators for that sort of thing [img]/uk/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
Pistol the boss
Is a terrible loss
When she isn't around for The Gang.
Those skimpy white tops
And her thugs (who aren't fops)
And her namesakes that make a loud 'Bang!'
But when she's around
She piles bodies in mounds,
Attacks from the front like a brute,
In a hailstorm of lead
Her foes all drop down dead
And she still keeps on looking damn' cute!
(See? You're not the only one...)
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Tar Patch was not really a useful part of my build
[/ QUOTE ][img]/uk/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]!!![img]/uk/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
[ QUOTE ]
My Necro/Dark MM doesn't have Stamina. In fact with him and my Kinetics defender being duo levelled a few months ago I noticed two other interesting side effects of the Staminaless build.
1) Not enough slots. In the 20s (where both still are) I found I'm desperate for slots. I've taken all the good powers as part of my would-be-Stamina run. I just can't really slot them. The two pre-Stamina powers basically give you "their" slots in the teens to slot the normally useful powers you get at 16 & / or 18. I'm sure this sorts itself in the 30s.
2) You get most of the fun powers in the teens that normally you've to leave until the 20s. And the early 20s have 3 "no new powers" slots at 20, 22 & 24. So I found myself not knowing what to take with them really. Weird hitting 24 and not knowing what on earth you want. Sure you can get into the Power Pools but they tend to be functional powers rather than exciting fun ones. So I found myself less than entuished by dinging 24, for example.
Just two experiences I had with Staminaless builds really. It's interesting given that normally the 20s are such a time for getting all those powers you've been longing for since before the Travel & Stamina run.
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Pretty much agreee with everything here. My stamina-less necro/dark got to levels 22-24, and I didn't have a clue what powers to get. Didn't have enough spare endurance to go for leadership, didn't need any attacks, already had more/better healing than I could pick up from medicine. So ended up with a second travel power. Which is not that useful for PvE. The bigger problem was that the travel powers required slots to of any use (TP and Fly), which was a bit of a pain when all your other powers are crying out for slots as well.
Respecced at 27, now have stamina, which helps for those BIG fights, and a few more slots to go round.
Story Arcs:
The business of destruction ID: 80848
[ QUOTE ]
Pistol the boss
Is a terrible loss
When she isn't around for The Gang.
Those skimpy white tops
And her thugs (who aren't fops)
And her namesakes that make a loud 'Bang!'
But when she's around
She piles bodies in mounds,
Attacks from the front like a brute,
In a hailstorm of lead
Her foes all drop down dead
And she still keeps on looking damn' cute!
[/ QUOTE ]
Ha haha! Good'un. Feel like I owe you a longer one now.
Han cba! [img]/uk/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
My ninja/dark MM (34) doesn't have stamina, and runs 3-4 toggles constantly (assault, tactics, SF, DN). Don't have any problems except in longer fights or if I have to resummon a lot mid-battle. To be honest, I love the chance to have more powers to play with, and I'm willing to put up with a bit of blue-popping to get that.
I have recently started a thugs/poison MM, and I'm finding the poison set to be a bit heavier on the end so far (only lvl 14). I'm aiming for a staminaless build - and with the enforcers, I'm probably going to skip the leadership pool this time - but we'll see how it goes. [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
well my necro/poison MM is set for pvp and if i would not have stamina i would be [censored] i would run out of end way to fast so it depends of were you use your MM for is it for pve or pvp
My Bots/FF does PvP. Not having stamina isnt a problem for me as if it is in the zones I scout first with no bots up to find the main areas of action and then hide in an out of the way spot to summon and buff then move in in bodyguard mode. I also do use the fun technique of paradropping bots which works quite well on squishies. The limited amount of arena PvP I have done usually ends up with me dead unless I can find somewhere to hide while buffing. With arena PvP I am more effective if I am on a team that can get the attention of other players.
Stamina for me as a very casual PvPer doesnt matter. Stamina for PvE is not worth it as I want too many other powers as well.
My LvL 45 mastermind (/poison) does not have fitness, and I've never needed it. Those extra powers in other areas are far more useful to me.
I slot my upgrades with two EndRedux in each. I don't feel that extra recharge is needed.
After a discussion late one night in game I have been contemplating the need for stamina as an MM. The bulk of my experience comes from playing a PvE based Bots/FF build but with excursions into PvP.
For me the primary doesnt affect whether you need stamina the secondary does as all the primary powersets seem balanced in terms of end use. Many people complain of running out of end when setting up the henches and use this as a justification for stamina but for me this isnt a reason. My upgrade powers are slotted as follows:
1st Upgrade - 2 Recharge, 2 End
2nd Upgrade 3 recharge, 2 End
This means for me that both upgrade powers have roughly the same recharge and I can summon and fully buff my pets while still having my patron shield turned on (there is 1 end red in the shield). All my other toggles are off but the only time I 'need' to summon and buff with toggles on is in the middle of a fight when the bots are dead. I say 'need'as in these situations one of 3 things is likely to happen:
1. I die before henches can be set up
2. Everybody on the team is on low health some are dead and the rest are running away.
3. Team kills everyone without a problem
Situation 1 is obvious I dont need to summon and buff with toggles on as I am already dead.
Situation 2 is a case of just summon the battle drones and leg it either in bodyguard mode or send the battle drones to attack Boss/AV/Nasty mob as a distraction and leg it with PFF on. In situation 2 I could try and fully summon and buff but every time I try it I end up dead in the cases I have legged it I may have cost the odd team mate their life but I have often been in the person whos being abbandoned shoes and it really is a case of 50/50 decision time do I stay and risk death to attempt to save the other guys life who may die anyway or do I leg it to come back and res them?
For me situation 3 is the rarest case. 2 things are the main events of situation 3; the first is I have been asked to take the alpha on a team or I have inadvertantly aggroed a mob or the bots have run into another mob as I wasnt quick enough to recall them. This usually means the team is in an ok situation and can deal with the enemy. The other thing that happens in situation 3 is team is in a bad way on the verge of losing and someone pops their panic button whether it is an /Inv brute going unstoppable and trying to grab a big chunck of the aggro, a corruptor nuking or a /rad corruptor casting EMP then using mutation on a dead brute. So situation 3 for me is the only situation where I need to summon and buff with toggles on but in this situation I either have enough time to wait for end before buffing or I only need to buff the protector and assault bots.
So IMO no MM needs stamina to fully buff unless you couldnt find between 0 and 2 extra slots for end reds ( the reason for 0 and 2 is if you get stamina most people normally pick up health stamina always gets 2 slots and health gets between 0 and 2 slots and as I only need 4 endred slots in upgrades we are left with finding between 0 and 2 slots dependent on whether or not you slot health).
So having hopefully removed the primary from consideration of stamina the only powerset that should affect whether stamina is picked up or not is the secondary powerset. Having played all the secondary powersets on MM's the only ones I can see tthat stamina could be helpfull for are Dark and Posion. Forcefield and Traps are IMO passive type sets that dont require a huge endurance outlay. TA is an active set but has low end costs and powers of reasonable recharge length so that end isnt a problem with them. This leaves posion and dark which I would say dont need stamina with careful slotting. I freely admit to not having a great deal of experience with both these sets so I could very well be wrong.
Finally there is one more point to consider in the choice of stamina or not and that is can you spare 3 powers in your build for it? I know I could not justify spending 1/8 of my power choices on it as there are more usefull powers to me. From my experience and from talking to different players in game most people pick up at least 6 of their primary powers and 6 of their secondary powers that is half their power choices and with a travel power that only leaves 10 power slots including patron powers.
So for me I will never take stamina on any MM I create as I cannot see me needing the increased end recovery rate after slotting endreds especially at the expense of 3 more useful powers.
So what do you think? Is the MM the only AT that doesnt need stamina?