If you want to be a Tank, you have to care!
This isn't exactly limited to tanks...
True enough Max, I for one always keep an eye on the person doing the majority of the healing in any group's I'm a member of, and will happily hurl myself at anything that even looks at them the wrong way, keep the main healer happy and you're set for the entire duration of the team's activities. The healer takes a dirt nap and things start to get really messy. The same goes for any of the more vulnerable AT's, in my opinion it's the responsibility of any one tougher than a mobs target to assist and remove said mobs attention from the other player, thus allowing them to do their job more effectivly, which works out to the greater benefit of the group as a whole.
think this is true in general, everyone has to look out for each other in a team, doesn't matter if your a tank or a blaster
can't just stand around and watch as your defender gets choped into tiny little bits by freaks
THere is something special about tanking well IMHO. Its rather rare to find a good tank. You need a Zen like mind state of an almost gravitational presence. Your job is to free all other team mates from fear and let them do their job without worrying about getting hit.
Its rare, but its a thing of beauty seeing a truly maginificent tank taking EVERY SINGLE ATTACK. You can play your squishy in complete freedom - attacking/debuffing a tightly knit pack of enemies.
Till some energy blaster comes along - yikes!
For me the health bars of everyone in the team is what the whole team should worry about. Team dynamics should flow with that in mind.
I like things done with a certain approach as i dont want anyone to faceplant ever.
I really get fired up when "bad pulls" are made and people are having to fight in a "bad position". I object to seeing people have to fight on terms that are bad, die, get ressed and die and to have to keep going simply because:
"The leader doesnt care, they just want their mission done, everyone can powerdebt for all they care"
With bad pulls id rather see people back off let the villains reset themselves and go back and do it properly, do it once and get it right first time.
I am playing a hero i need to not see team mates harmed. I absolutely seriously do go off my trolley when i see mindless approaches followed by mindless mashing followed by a couple or deaths or a full teamwipe. Especially done by people who have the absolute cheek to call other people noobs. No one wants me on team speak i can tell you!
Bad pullers is why i dont team with other tankers, the last one i did, [censored] things up, i also consider anyone knockbacking mobs towards other untouched mobs are in-mission griefers. I have star when i tank, i kick anyone not allowing me to do things my way, if due to lack of proper support i am gonna go down at least i can tell the team to run before i do whilst the mobs are still taunted. Providing no squishie comes and sits on my shoulder just before a lot of jaegers explode or jumps over a mob of nemises snipers and stands next to me to share in some flamethrower love i should be the only one to die first.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I know exactly why Unthing is making this post (since we were on the same team the other day with that stone tank) and I agree that although this applies to all ATs, it's probably more important in the case of tanks since they will most likely be the only ones to survive if they play badly (unlike other ATs).
CoX 50s: <ill/rad> <ice/ice> <fire/kin> <grav/sonic> <ice/storm> <earth/kin> <kin/elec> <cold/psy> <thugs/dark> <fire/dark> <dark/elec> <night widow> <EM/ninj> <mind/icy>
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it's probably more important in the case of tanks since they will most likely be the only ones to survive if they play badly (unlike other ATs).
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Until you're on a team with a tank who is not only played badly but built very badly too. Then watch the debt pile on for the tank. Tanks can survive battles against mobs quite well, but tbh, my money would be on the defender and the scrapper as the suvivors of any bad team pullling excess aggro. It's a style thing, defenders stay back and pull least aggro, scrappers tend more often to have an escape route coupled with the ability to take some serious aggro. Tanks may have the best armours and the most hp, but their taking-it-all play style can lead to more death than others who fight with more thought of what could happen should things go worng.
I love being in a team with a good tank who can pull the aggro and survive it, I love being in a team with a good defender who uses their primary more than their secondary, love teams with lots of scrappers so the damage/second ticker runs in overdrive... It isn't going to be the tank who keeps the team alive by doing his job properly, it will be the team that stays alive by allowing everyone to do their job, even in teams that might appear unbalanced. TEAM is the key word, not any particular member. If people talk to each other, then the team can survive a lot of pain. How many team wipes have you seen where members are silent on the team channel and rush round trying to get missions done for xp/minute rates? Too many, and too much debt, tank or no.
"Pride is all well and good but a sausage is a sausage"
For Lent I gave up...
Hope
To be a good *player* irrespective of AT you have to care. Tanker may well be a special case, given it may be more difficult to excel at it then it to say, excel at being a scrapper (just an example), but I would tend towards saying the differences in terms of "what it takes" are relatively minor. You need to know your build, your limits and have a sense of team spirit.
I'm glad to see that everyone seems to be posting variations on this theme, I'm just saddened this attitude isn't more prevalent ingame.
I'm lvling a stone tank at them moment. He's 17th lvl, fully slotted armour and got his mudpots at 16th and *now* he can tank. I focus on gathering up the agro, making myself a meat shield whenever possible and try my best to be the last out if it all goes pear shaped, but as of yet I haven't really pushed for being the team leader all the time, but am realising that to be a "great" tank this is a necessary step.
Players without the right stuff need to be kicked as they'll only be a liability and a clear and concise plan needs to be laid out for each type of mob.
I'm also coming to the conclusion that to be a great tank you absolutely, positively MUST have taunt, because you have to take on the duty of pulling as well. In my experience less than 1 in 5 ppl know how to pull properly. They'll fire off their shot and then stand there in full view. The mob will return fire and after a couple of exchanges the rest of the team surge forward, rendering the pull attempt futile.
So, to be a great tank, imho, you have to tell the team, I'll be pulling the mob to *here*, give me a few second to gather up the agro and then go wild. Or, whatever the specifics of the plan are.
A tank is one of the more obvious team orientated ATs like the defender, but the bottom line is simply that EVERYONE has a responsibility to their team mates.
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(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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I'm also coming to the conclusion that to be a great tank you absolutely, positively MUST have taunt, because you have to take on the duty of pulling as well. In my experience less than 1 in 5 ppl know how to pull properly. They'll fire off their shot and then stand there in full view. The mob will return fire and after a couple of exchanges the rest of the team surge forward, rendering the pull attempt futile.
So, to be a great tank, imho, you have to tell the team, I'll be pulling the mob to *here*, give me a few second to gather up the agro and then go wild. Or, whatever the specifics of the plan are.
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Though it is extremely frustrating when a blaster decides to pull, with no plan, as your're busy typing the aforementioned instructions, leaving you with a scattered group of mobs attacking at range and on obligation to try and do something about before anyone ends up face-down.
I'm not a huge fan of pulling to be honest, though it has it's place in certain situations. Maybe it's just overdone because someteams don't have enough confidence in the tanks ability to hold most of the aggro. Where possible I'd much rather get in amongst the mobs and keep them on me while everyone else gets on with doing their thing. My main use of taunt these days is getting any mobs that manage to break away back into the group. A zoomed out camera and a careful eye on the team's health bars can do wonders for keeping people alive.
IMO 'caring' should be a two way door, it's not just a tank thing. Sadly, I think the laudable attitudes expressed by most forumites aren't really reflected in the server population at large. I've been on way too many PUG's with lunatics who don't seem to care one iota about their team mates. Only yesterday I died twice because the empath on our team wouldn't use CM on me - he had it, just for some reason wouldn't use it even when I got mezzed and asked for it. Even worse, it was a three man team, so he could have easily kept the other 2 of us perma-CM'd and not even needed to be reactive most of the time. It's hard to really care much under those circumstances.
Bad tanking is a nightmare for sure. I have to agree that you really need the star to get anything done, aggressive kicking seems to be the best way to keep everyone alive too.
I spent two har dmissions where I didn't have the star working with (around really) a tanker who only wished to Ghost missions even though she was side-kicked with a -5 scrapper! He face planted twice in each mish despite my constant questioning of "where are you going?" and "you DO know you are sidekicked don't you!"
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Bad tanking is a nightmare for sure. I have to agree that you really need the star to get anything done, aggressive kicking seems to be the best way to keep everyone alive too.
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I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so. Not only do you need the star, but I think you need taunt (or some other ranged attack) as well. Not *just* to herd and control agro but to take control of pulls.
I spent two missions with an idiot blaster who refused to let me pull - wouldn't say a word, just wait for me to step forward and taunt, and then a few seconds later, shoot at someone who wasn't running towards me.
Sadly, I didn't have the star either, but after a few goes of this I stopped worrying about taking the agro back off him.
The other story was an idiot with group teleport who caused a team wipe by tping us all into a mob when we weren't ready. This was after I'd twice asked him not to group tp as he'd nearly gor us wiped out before and it's slighly disorientating when you don't know it's coming.
On my way back from hospital I innocently asked for the star and booted him right off the team, then passed the star back
So yes, if someone is refusing to learn, or buggering about for his own amusement at the expense of the team: BOOT and forget.
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(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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Not only do you need the star, but I think you need taunt (or some other ranged attack) as well. Not *just* to herd and control agro but to take control of pulls.
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I don't find this too much of a problem since I seem to be teamed with quite a lot of the same people these days and usually they're pretty receptive to a change in tactics when things clearly aren't working too well. Obviously it help to state your intentions and get them accepted before you reach that situation, but as I said, generally I don't find it too bad (the odd nightmare mish apart).
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The other story was an idiot with group teleport who caused a team wipe by tping us all into a mob when we weren't ready. This was after I'd twice asked him not to group tp as he'd nearly gor us wiped out before and it's slighly disorientating when you don't know it's coming.
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I never dream of accepting an invite without prompt for TP on. Its particularly annoying when there's a retreat taking place and you, the Tank, get TPd out before the rest of the team. Tanks in first; tanks out last.
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I never dream of accepting an invite without prompt for TP on. Its particularly annoying when there's a retreat taking place and you, the Tank, get TPd out before the rest of the team. Tanks in first; tanks out last.
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Prompt team teleport doesn't work on team tp, which just for clarification, is where the character teleports himself and everyone around him at the same time. You simply have no say in the matter and hence the kickage.
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(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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Prompt team teleport doesn't work on team tp, which just for clarification, is where the character teleports himself and everyone around him at the same time. You simply have no say in the matter and hence the kickage.
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Now that I didn't know, and I'd certainly not be impressed if someone used it on me unannounced. Then again, I don't think I've ever seen a build that included Team TP. It seems to be a pariah among power picks, with perhaps everything the prescence pool being the only others equally shunned, at least in my experience.
Might be nice when entire group is treading on 20 stacked caltrops from the knives of Artemis tho... That really changed my mind about caltrops... People actually DYING from them!
To be a good tank you need to care.
You need to care about your teammates survival. All the bad tanks I've played with act like 'I am invulnerable, look how great I am' rather than 'I'm watching you back, I'll protect you'.
Tanking is an enabling role, a good tank lets everyone pull out all the stops and forget about aggro and as a result the team becomes incredibly effective. If the tank doesn't care, this doesn't work.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.