Looks like my PvP idea has become a reality...

What did I say?

What did I say...months ago?

To those who said it couldn't be done or it wouldn't be that useful, then read this.

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...o=&fpart=1

If that doesn't work for some reason...

http://boards.cityofheroes.com
PvP General
Sonic Cage/DF, is it getting out of hand?

Anything special to look for? There's 46 pages of - I guess - trivial bickering back and forth there.

It's about how you can use Sonic Cage and Detention Field to completely take someone out of a fight(they can't use any powers that affect anyone but themselves, it's like phase shift, but offensive). There is no counter to it.

Now, on my Bubble Controller I can't get Detention field even near perma. There is at least a 10 second gap from when the power stops affecting someone, to until i can use it again. The target is affected for like 15 seconds. So personally I don't see a problem there. It's like a panic button, I mostly use it on people that can get through my force bubble, so I don't get two shotted by BS/Inv scrappers or Inv/Nrg Tanks for example. These values aren't even close to the ones in PVE, as in PVE the duration is at least 4 times as long.

On Defenders though, you can get it very close to perma. Xanthus' tested it on Decibellion and he could drop Sonic Cage with a downtime between attacks of 1 second. So you would be in Sonic Cage for a certain amount of time, then it would drop and one second later the person could drop it on you again. If he had speedboost on him, it would have been perma, but then you can't stack it, so it still requires some timing. The duration of the power in PVP is much longer on Defenders. So on Defenders this power can be used to take someone out of a fight completely and permanently. That is a problem.

Now the number of actual Sonic and Bubble Defenders we have running around here in the EU don't really make this much of an issue. I'd say in the EU it's pretty much a non issue. But in the US, like everything else before it, they've starting abusing it like it's the only power in the game. Basically this is what happens when you nerf something.... people "adapt". These powers have been around since I1(Detention Field) and I5(Sonic Cage), but they've just starting abusing it now. This is probably some reaction to the acc debuff nerf and Whirlwind nerf. I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers of Sonics and Bubblers would increase now that they'll be "tweaking" toggle dropping. If you can't toggle drop a Tank or Brute, just perma cage them. That way you won't need to deal with them at all, and completely go for squishies, without any interference.

ps. could you fix the link you posted? It's kinda long and screwing up the forum layout.

Ah, yeh... been caged quite a bit by villains myself.

It's a strange mechanism to have in the game since it's extremely dull to play against, it seems to be a PvE/PvP crossover problem. Decibellion had it on me more or less permanently on me on test until he was killed. I think the argument against it is simply that it leads you down a tedious path for the game and not that it isn't effective.

What no moaning about dimension shift/blackhole?

[ QUOTE ]
What no moaning about dimension shift/blackhole?

[/ QUOTE ]

Give it time.

The second i see people here using perma caging to 'win' a fight is the day i stop PvPing.

Not only do you remove a character from the fight, you remove the fun along with it, and at the end of the day, that's the only reason we play this game.

For some people, winning is fun at any cost. I think the problem must be when it is used to teams to give one team an unfair advantage. Having a 4 v 8 team fight isn't going to be good news for anyone on the team of 4.

There are ways to counter it of course...

But then again, I wouldn't expect someone who didn't foresee this happening or being a valid tactic to be much good at thinking of them. Not that I can remember who those people were off the top of my head...

[ QUOTE ]
For some people, winning is fun at any cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you get that right bob?

Would you edit the link? it's breaking the layout.

[ QUOTE ]
What no moaning about dimension shift/blackhole?

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't these AoE's? I think the point of Detention Field and Sonic Cage has always been to take out specific people. Dimension Shifting an entire group doesn't give you much of an advantage. Taking out specific targets and disrupting team dynamics that way does give you an advantage. That's how I've always used it. Drop it on a scrapper that's after me, or a tank that's taunting me. It's a quick way to remove someone that I am powerless against otherwise. On my controller it's nowhere near perma though, so I tend to save it for when I absolutely need it. It also tends to screw up our team as well, if I manage to drop it on someone that the damage dealers are targeting.

[ QUOTE ]
There are ways to counter it of course...

[/ QUOTE ]
As far as I know there isn't. I'm not even sure if the power drops after you kill the caster. It's likely though, but I wouldn't call that a sufficient counter. I think there should be some form of counter, but it shouldn't be something that everyone has, as that would make the power too similar to other mezzes. Maybe handle this in a similar way they handle repel resistance for example (stacked kinetic ID's).

[ QUOTE ]
. Decibellion had it on me more or less permanently on me on test until he was killed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh hay, there's a counter to this power! I'm a defender. I die in like 3 seconds against a good team who zergs me. Not only that, but you could even get your own bubbler and just take me out of the fight. TK works as well, since if I'm not in range I can't use my cage.

I'm sorry, but there's no problem with using these powers. There are counters to them, and they aren't "unbeatable". In fact, they can work both ways. More than once on the monday night fights I've stopped Imaginary/Captain Freon getting kills because I've caged his target (usually Max Powerz =S). Anything +def works against the cage as well (purples, anyone?) and on Controllers it's miles away from perma.

I don't see the problem. It's not doing "anything to win", it's using a power thats in the game. I'm not exploiting or hacking or anything, so where's the problem?

P.S. Bilharzia, I often like to solo in PvP and just perma-cage people who seem to be causing problems. Take it as a compliment

I don't know if your reply is aimed at me but I didn't suggest any of the things you're talking about, I certainly haven't said anything about hacking or exploiting. What I did say it was dull and ultimately (I can imagine) leads to a tedious game; and please, don't talk about a quick death, I'm a Dominator, don't make me laugh.

As far as counters sure, I can see many, for one we can play [censored]-each-other-off with sonics vs bubbles, relentless hounding as well, etc. I think if you play the [censored]-off game a lot you'll generate bad feeling.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if your reply is aimed at me but I didn't suggest any of the things you're talking about, I certainly haven't said anything about hacking or exploiting. What I did say it was dull and ultimately (I can imagine) leads to a tedious game; and please, don't talk about a quick death, I'm a Dominator, don't make me laugh.

As far as counters sure, I can see many, for one we can play [censored]-each-other-off with sonics vs bubbles, relentless hounding as well, etc. I think if you play the [censored]-off game a lot you'll generate bad feeling.

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't aimed at you, it was aimed at the people who were saying "OMG THERE IS NO COUNTER TO DETENTIONFIELD/SONIC CAGE!!!1111"

Chi here, Assassin Sriker extraordinaire, at your service, taking out any bubblers in one, swift shank.

Just stick a Res to it on Break Frees, it is a Mez effect after all.

[ QUOTE ]
Just stick a Res to it on Break Frees, it is a Mez effect after all.

[/ QUOTE ]

It does seem daft a BF doesn't work with it.

[ QUOTE ]
Not only do you remove a character from the fight, you remove the fun along with it, and at the end of the day, that's the only reason we play this game.

[/ QUOTE ]
The same could be said of tactical droners like me, or stalkers one-shotting (soon to be one-shot-to-brawl).

Well, luckily enough we have very, very little of this on Union. Thing is, a lot of people (from Defiant infact) have said PvP on Union is much better...

Perhaps because they have fun instead of just racking up pointless kills? Who knows...

How can you have an issue with this?

It's no more wrong than a tank keeping someone perma-taunted or a rad keeping a blaster debuffed. It's making use of the powers as they were meant to be used. If you consider that cheating/poor sportsmanship then you may be playing the wrong game...

is it unfair wen someone is phased shift and u can't kill him? the only thing wrong i can see is if some one bubbles u and a stalker waits and one shots u as soon as its done or a blaster power boosts ,build up aimingly snipes u. that would be unfair. as for disrupting teams , i pvp often and there isn't much teaming that it could be disruptive as much as ur making out, as u often find urself alone in three seconds wen poeple scatter anyways.

[ QUOTE ]
How can you have an issue with this?

It's no more wrong than a tank keeping someone perma-taunted or a rad keeping a blaster debuffed. It's making use of the powers as they were meant to be used. If you consider that cheating/poor sportsmanship then you may be playing the wrong game...

[/ QUOTE ]

So far we havent got any issues here, but the US seem to be already having arena matches with more than 2 bubblers/cagers in a team.. And people naturally dont like to be on opposing side. The bubbler/cager teams have also been very succesful I read from US forums. Naturally if you change 5 vs 5 into a 5 vs 2 then its sorta easier for the other side, I guess. (attempt at sarcastic remark).

And of course the fact that the powers are clicky ones afaik? Caster dying wont make the cages go away, so dead defenders just respawn in arena and can come cage again before the old one is down... Well at least the cages dont stack.

[ QUOTE ]
How can you have an issue with this?

It's no more wrong than a tank keeping someone perma-taunted or a rad keeping a blaster debuffed. It's making use of the powers as they were meant to be used. If you consider that cheating/poor sportsmanship then you may be playing the wrong game...

[/ QUOTE ]

Both powers you stated there though have very easy remedies, LoS or pure distance between yourself and the caster, cages/bubbles have no such counter...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How can you have an issue with this?

It's no more wrong than a tank keeping someone perma-taunted or a rad keeping a blaster debuffed. It's making use of the powers as they were meant to be used. If you consider that cheating/poor sportsmanship then you may be playing the wrong game...

[/ QUOTE ]

Both powers you stated there though have very easy remedies, LoS or pure distance between yourself and the caster, cages/bubbles have no such counter...

[/ QUOTE ]

Except LoS and pure distance between yourself and the caster? If I can't see you, I can't cage you. Or, you could just zerg me with the rest of your team every time you see me. It's what we tend to do to Force Bubblers/Empaths, why should a sonic cage/detention fielder be any different?

[ QUOTE ]
Just stick a Res to it on Break Frees, it is a Mez effect after all.

[/ QUOTE ]
That would make the whole power pointless though and the last thing these powersets need are more useless powers. The fact that it's unresistable right now makes it useful. I wouldn't mind having some type of counter to it, as long as it's something obscure, but breaking the effect with a simple break free(aka the universal problem solver ) would break the whole power.

[ QUOTE ]
It does seem daft a BF doesn't work with it.

[/ QUOTE ]
No it doesn't, that's the whole point of the power. Same as in PVE.

[ QUOTE ]
Well, luckily enough we have very, very little of this on Union. Thing is, a lot of people (from Defiant infact) have said PvP on Union is much better...

[/ QUOTE ]
well it's a quality vs. quantity issue really. Union just has more PVP, more casual PVP'ers. So you can always get into a scrap on Union, which is fun. Defiant has less casual players, so the zones are more empty then on Union, but once the zone fills up, the overal level of PVP is higher.

Also the people on Union tend to whine a little less, or maybe I've just forgotten to turn on broadcast.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How can you have an issue with this?

It's no more wrong than a tank keeping someone perma-taunted or a rad keeping a blaster debuffed. It's making use of the powers as they were meant to be used. If you consider that cheating/poor sportsmanship then you may be playing the wrong game...

[/ QUOTE ]
Both powers you stated there though have very easy remedies, LoS or pure distance between yourself and the caster, cages/bubbles have no such counter...

[/ QUOTE ]
True, but Cages/Bubbles doesn't allow you to affect the person in any way after you've caged/bubbled them. If you perma taunt or debuff someone, you can still attack them. So there is a trade off there.