Bases, Rent, Crafting, Prestige - A Rant!
By
Arlyne,
Posted on: 2006-02-27 08:30 in Base Construction
ok, in all fairnes...
the Holodisplay
costs: 97K
gives controle: 25
consumes energy: 15
the Terminal
costs: 30K
gives controle: 10
consumes energy: 10
The Corner Terminal
costs: 32K
gives controle: 12
consumes energy: 15
The Database
costs: 106K
gives controle: 50
consumes energy: 100
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So the Holodisplay is "better" than the terminals, as it's more enery efficient. But we don't have a shortage of energy, we have a shortage of controle, so I'm better off putting in 3 Terminals at lower cost, or save a little more and put in a Database
But the rest stands, the base has a lot of potential, but it's not implemented the best way. It feels half baked, to be honest.
Add to that the decorations... a lot of options, but most are catered around the "evil lair" principle, that or the corperate theme.
With a lot of effort, I've been able to make a "home" from wich my SG opperates, rather than a "base".
@ShadowGhost & @Ghostie
The Grav Mistress, Mistress of Gravity
If you have nothing useful to say, you have two choices: Say something useless or stay quiet.
OK.. my numbers were a little off, but I still stand by my rant!!! (blows a wet raspberry).
The entire concept is half baked and not very well implemented.. I bet you'll find there are a LOT more people using bases for things other than raiding, which is what most it seems (dodgily) designed for...
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
The whole base thing is a bit naff, only the biggest supergroups can build a working base and only if all the lower members of the SG do all missions in SG mode can enough prestige be built up to keep the thing running. In the end it turns into a Stone around your neck that you just can't be bothered with.
If you could actually craft temp powers or something not base related I can see the point but as it is I usually just don't bother.
[ QUOTE ]
So the Holodisplay is "better" than the terminals, as it's more enery efficient. But we don't have a shortage of energy, we have a shortage of controle, so I'm better off putting in 3 Terminals at lower cost, or save a little more and put in a Database
[/ QUOTE ]
I have had a rant several times before, but right now I'm starting to see a little light in all this.. I had thought our SG:s prestige gaining was next to nothing but my friends surprised me last night by saying we had had a plot upgrade and still got some spare prest.
The above mentioned 'more energy-efficient'-argument is valid to a certain point. After last night we now have all 3 different worktables functioning along with 2 teleporters and 4 beacons. Overall both our energy and control consumption is close to what we can produce, and Im starting to see some sense in the salvage-built control items. However, all control items need to be attached to the main-frame, and there can only be one main-frame in the base(plot restriction). And the large total amount of control needed means we need a lot of databases for the raw control production (+50c each) . Currently we have 4. We can't produce the same amount with salvage items because they produce less control each, and there are only so many attachment slots in the main-frame(and control room).
Our basic generator is starting to run out of energy (only 100 left so far) so eventually we're gonna need to use salvage-built control items to save on energy. But how to solve the attachment problem? Looks like we need a bigger control room that allows more attachments. Then eventually we'll run out of attachment slots on the main-frame itself, but possibly by then we're close to having enough prestige to buy the supercomputer and we can sell all the previous control stuff to get the required 1,5 million prest. Which will then act as the main-frame for the next generation of control auxiliaries etc..
In all honesty, I was ranting before because I couldn't see the carrying idea in base development. I thought it was full of holes(ie. the prestige-gap between basic base and 'next generation'-base) but now it's starting to make sense..
I wonder if my post here makes any sense to anybody.. Anyway I'm starting to feel a little relieved that I don't have to wait for 1 year to add next upgrade to the base after all. 
Ill put here a summary of how I see the control production development of a base:
1.) buy smallest control room,main-frame
2.) add databases if you need control
3.) If energy is starting to run low, make salvage-built control items that are more energy-efficient.
4.) If you run out of attachment slots, buy bigger control room that allows more auxiliaries(databases et al) attached
5.) If you run out of control after all attachment slots are filled in the main-frame, sell everything and buy supercomputer(if its unlocked)
6.) start attaching databases etc to the supercomputer if you need more control
7.) and so on 
PS.
I wouldn't count Goonies as very large SG, there are maybe 5-10 different people online daily. Ok there are several people with lvl 50s in the Sg if that has any effect which I doubt. The low lvls are the best at collecting prestige.
PPS.
The decorative items need some revamping. Why are the only beds available to the HERO base the ones that have harnesses?!
And then what do you do when people either need to stop earning prestige so they can earn enough inf for their next round of SO's, or start to leave the SG/Game?
A friend of mind had a small SG, just enough for a small base for some RP. Toons left the SG, taking their prestige bonus with them.. He's now locked out of his base with 75k debt and is unlikely to ever get his base back, after spending a lot of time and effort getting it just right too...
Considering the stupid costs to do anything with a base beyond decorating it, they could at least not lock you out of them completely if you can't afford the rent!
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
[ QUOTE ]
Considering the stupid costs to do anything with a base beyond decorating it, they could at least not lock you out of them completely if you can't afford the rent!
[/ QUOTE ]
This change was the biggest letdown with the bases so far. They shouldn't have made it I agree. Afaik earlier unpaid rent made only the items stop working, not the base portal! Give us our bases back!
Agree - bases are insanely costly in all ways - it just seems like someone had a complete brain-meltdown when they decided the prices for all the stuff - it's just wrong on so many levels
And the whole point of collecting salvage and spending money on worktables is sort of moot when you have to pay extra just to get the item.
True, locking you out seems silly since otherwise you might be able to get rid of the neccessary items to have enough prestige to pay the rent.
[ QUOTE ]
The entire concept is half baked and not very well implemented..
[/ QUOTE ]
Bases are pretty laughable. Currently a glorified way of getting from PI / Founders to Hazard Zones and thats it. The Salvage system seems meaningless and to have something this poor as one of the main selling points of City of Villains (all the articles I read touted it as one of the reasons to get CoV) doesn't bode well for the game.
Same questions, same scepticism in French speaking forums...
CoH sur JeuxOnline : les forums / le site
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Service des Op�rations Sp�ciales / Corrupt Squad
Anima
Komsomol
[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:[/color]<hr />
I can't put a chair in front of my nice new terminal? Excuse me, that's stupid. They base editor tells me I can't block access to a raidable object.. IT'S A CHAIR!!! How can a chair get in the way of anyone?
[/ QUOTE ]
I already sent suggestions about this as well. It's especially true when you consider multiple-level floors with stairs. Even the stairs that are supposed to help moving are considered blocking access to a raidable object. That's often very bad for good base design, and I have to rethink the whole thing to make it work and it's not as good as expected in the end.
And yes, I do agree that paying rent for something you purchased at first is strange and unfair. If you're not the base owner (considering you're paying rent), why do you have to pay for adding rooms ? You should only pay for items and equipment... The overall rent thing is annoying, since you have to continuously play and earn prestige until the base rent equals the total amount of prestige your SG can earn. Then your base is in a final state, unable to be improved anymore. That's too bad, especially for small SG, and I have the feeling that this limit will be reached sooner than expected.
[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:[/color]<hr />
Toons left the SG, taking their prestige bonus with them..
[/ QUOTE ]
As far as I know, a SG doesn't lose the prestige earned by a character when this character leaves it.
CoH sur JeuxOnline : les forums / le site
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Service des Op�rations Sp�ciales / Corrupt Squad
Anima
Komsomol
Yes but it does loose the 20k bonus that were awarded for recruiting a new member if the SG has less than 15 members.
Bases are recent additions, I can only assume there is room for improvement, so give it a little time or a couple of patches.
The actual base building is easy enough to use but sometimes it is a bit frustrating when you know full well a room can go exactly where YOU want it but the editor says NO.
The prices are massively high, which I've decided is a good thing. CoX is designed for the long term and part of the experience is encourage team work. Lead/support an SG into saving for the next phase on your base etc...
The complaint from most is 'Daddy, I want a big base & I want one NOW!' I say, chill, what's the rush, build it as you go, make it an ongoing project. Otherwise we'd all have uber bases with an absolute build, which would equal a trip to Yawn City. "oh you've got 6 plasma cannons, 10 turrets and rabid fish guarding your vault too.... that's the 53rd base I've seen like it today"
I do however, agree with the rent quibble. What purpose does it serve? It's the SG's base, we've paid to keep it powered & controlled. Why the rent? Literally throwing away money to a registrar despite the fact we've saved his behind from countless villianous plots!
The SG items.... until i'm given a decent reason, I agree with the above, we've procured the correct salvage, to build on the correct worktable we've bought in the base we keep correctly powered & controlled, now we pay pay over the odds to install it? 'Bah, let's get 3 Databases instead, I know they're not as pretty Wonder-lad, but times are bleak'
Getting kicked out seems kinda pointless to, why? 'I wanna use the space to chat, I just don't need my Med Bay/TP/Workshop this month...'
Finally, so far I've found the base pretty useful for transport (incl the reclaimator's = same zone arrival) and holding meetings and the like. I do not doubt they can be improved however... *coughs SG mission computer* *ahem some missions please*
"Like War_Hero said, leave it as it is, it toughens up the softies." - Naz Nomad
Union Heroes
War Borg - Leader of The Paragon Knights
Union Villains
McCabe - Co-leader of The Rogue Knights
Defiant - Supreme Hero
[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:[/color]<hr />
Bases are recent additions, I can only assume there is room for improvement, so give it a little time or a couple of patches.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bases were supposed to be one of the most exciting things that CoV brought. How not to be disapointed ?
CoH sur JeuxOnline : les forums / le site
-----
Service des Op�rations Sp�ciales / Corrupt Squad
Anima
Komsomol
[ QUOTE ]
Bases are recent additions, I can only assume there is room for improvement, so give it a little time or a couple of patches.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry but that doesn't wash really. They've already been live for 4-5 months. Plus all the time they spent designing and beta-ing them. Didn't someone go "Hang on. Other than plonking things down theres no actual content these things provide".
[ QUOTE ]
The complaint from most is 'Daddy, I want a big base & I want one NOW!' I say, chill, what's the rush, build it as you go, make it an ongoing project. Otherwise we'd all have uber bases with an absolute build, which would equal a trip to Yawn City. "oh you've got 6 plasma cannons, 10 turrets and rabid fish guarding your vault too.... that's the 53rd base I've seen like it today"
I do however, agree with the rent quibble. What purpose does it serve? It's the SG's base, we've paid to keep it powered & controlled. Why the rent? Literally throwing away money to a registrar despite the fact we've saved his behind from countless villianous plots!
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd just like them to be of use for something. I get no benefit from them at all other than the occasional quick trip to a hazard zone.
[ QUOTE ]
Finally, so far I've found the base pretty useful for transport (incl the reclaimator's = same zone arrival) and holding meetings and the like. I do not doubt they can be improved however... *coughs SG mission computer* *ahem some missions please*
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. Or at least let us play Puzzle Bobble on the stupid thing
Prices definitely needs to go down... they all seem geared for those 75-member SG's with dozens of 50's and at least 20 players online in SG mode every day...
I guess it's an attempt to over-compensate for the huge ammounts of Influence that was floating around Paragon City before... but really, the simple fact that high-level players loose all Inf-gain when in SG mode fixes THAT, and the 500-1 exchange-rate takes it one step further... topping it off by pricing everything so ridiculously high is just overkill.
I could live with the rent if the actual stuff I BUY was a bit cheaper, but as it is, it kinda' feel like buying an appartment, and STILL paying rent...
Well we are a large well organised SG, but having done some calcs, it will actually be impossible for us to get the large secure plot since we would be unable to pay the rent on it. Balancing point for us where
prestige earned per rent period = rent
will be around about the 80 million point. we already pay 230k each rent period just to maintain our base, expansions will get slower as this goes up. Now scale that operation down to an SG that has say only 10 active players, suddenly the cap for total base expense is closer to 20 million. Something similar to the base we have now provided they work hard to make the rent. If someone leaves this delicately stacked house of cards the only option will be to go into your base and start selling stuff to the repo man.
1) way to expensive !!
2)takes way to long !!
3)need to much peeps to get it complete !!
4)its to complicated !!
5) we wanna use it, and not only being bussy with keeping it!!
its verry frustrating..... and it should be a nice usable extra...
[ QUOTE ]
I guess it's an attempt to over-compensate for the huge ammounts of Influence that was floating around Paragon City before... but really, the simple fact that high-level players loose all Inf-gain when in SG mode fixes THAT, and the 500-1 exchange-rate takes it one step further... topping it off by pricing everything so ridiculously high is just overkill.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yea, this is how I have perceived the devs fixing something, they fix it three times with different methods ending up with overkill.
While we're here discussin g prestige and the amount of people in super groups does anyonw know why its capped at 75? Our SG is relatively active but people have so many alts that we now have 3 sg's with many alts earning prestige for a sg hat doesnt need it rather than the main. It's very annoying...
IMHO a SG, if it must be limited, should be limited to 75 global handles rather than 75 toons...
Defiant
Proud Member of the Liberty Legion
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Blizzard - Ice/Storm Controller
Legionelosis - Rad/Rad Defender
[ QUOTE ]
While we're here discussin g prestige and the amount of people in super groups does anyonw know why its capped at 75? Our SG is relatively active but people have so many alts that we now have 3 sg's with many alts earning prestige for a sg hat doesnt need it rather than the main. It's very annoying...
IMHO a SG, if it must be limited, should be limited to 75 global handles rather than 75 toons...
[/ QUOTE ]
This is oh so familiar, HOWEVER I have heard rumours about increasing the SG size
I find rent the most annoying thing about the whole base concept. The only reason there needs to be a sink for prestige if theres missions or suchlike that can be exploited for prestige. Its been said that bases will allow us to access extra content (Silver Mantis, Cathedral of Pain) but you need have enough prestige to build the minimum requirements for this content and if youre a small-ish SG then this is going to take ages, with regular set-backs in your progress via rent.
Additionally, if you start out with an active, large SG but people then leave the game, youre going to be screwed as youll no longer be able to afford the rent.
IMHO they need to drop the rent concept, and make prices of items about 50-75% of what they are now. SGs would still need to save up for the bigger plots and items but it would be an achievable goal. At the moment I look at the secure plot prices and think to myself, not a chance.
That being said, I really enjoyed the Silver Mantis SF (the last level is awesome), Ive really enjoyed doing the base design for our SGs and am excited about the I7 additions. I agree though, there has been consistent cries from the player base for the cost/rent to be looked at, and if this is going to be a selling point for the game it needs some attention.
As I recall the 75 character limit was due to graphics limitations. Only 75 people can be displayed in one place at one time reasonably.
However one of the threads I saw about the matter was talking about chaning it to 75 accounts (so all 12 of your characters could be in an SG at once and count as 1 towards that limit). Since you cant log more than 1 character off an account at any one time.
Would need to get confirmation of how/if its gonna though from someone in red
Time for a rant!
Base rent - Can someone explain why this isn't the most player unfriendly thing about bases? You pay a fortune to deck your base out nicely, have a few active items, mostly decorated for some nice RP. Then the rent is due. Don't pay it and they active items stop working; ok, how does that work huh? I've got my own power supply so how come they can shut off the power to my reclamator? Ok, so, still don't pay the rent and you get locked out of the base. OK... That's REALLY player friendly isn't it? So what do you do if a bunch of people leave the SG, taking their prestige bonus with them? Kinda unfair to the rest isn't it?
Crafting - You spend ages collecting salvage, you spend a fortune in prestige to get a worktable going, you build something, eg, a holodisplay. It then costs you around 89k prestige to place the thing! Excuse me... I just BUILT it! I can place it myself! I don't need any workmen to come install it for me! Besides... It provides the same control and power as a simple terminal, which I can buy and place for a measly 30k. Does that make ANY sense? To ANYONE?
Prestige - We're told time and time again it's not money. BUT, you buy things for your base with it, you HAVE to pay rent with it, you even have to pay up to put something on the floor you just built. It's money, stop telling us it isn't, we're not thick you know...
Active items - Things like terminals, teleporters... Stuff that can be destroyed in a base raid. I can't put a chair in front of my nice new terminal? Excuse me, that's stupid. They base editor tells me I can't block access to a raidable object.. IT'S A CHAIR!!! How can a chair get in the way of anyone?
As far as I'm concerned, the base system as it stands need to be totally redesigned, and some thought into how the players want to use them applied...
There, rant over... Please add your own!
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.