Meh...
Those must be the feeling of many that start tanking for the first time, they'll feel with no doubt Scrapper with low damage and more HP..
That's just silly but we can thank Statesman for this..
Tanking in the I1-3/4 sense is dead. Well and truely.
You can't herd any more.
You can't hold all the aggro any more.
You can't take all the damage any more.
You can't even dish out the damage any more thanks to the AoE caps.
All in all, tanking, in the original sense of the job, is dead. Although given that Statesman's idea of tanking is attacking a couple of S/L minions in an 8 man spawn while the rest of the team deal with the hard stuff, I'm not suprised that the nerfs have been allowed to go this far.
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I can't really comment on the current state of low level tanking to be honest. I do have a lvl 12 stone/stone tanker but I only play him with my supergroup one evening a week and we're all pretty experienced players who know how to work together. I'm building my guy to play as a tank (must gather aggro, must protest the rest) and I absolutely love playing him. I don't know how it'd go on a random pick-up team though - I'd probably find it a lot less rewarding if I was playing without support I knew and trusted. Having said that though I did exemp my level 50 tanker down to help on a mid-teen Frostfire mission last month and I enjoyed the tanking experience immensely. I only had brawl and one-slotted bash (slotted with taunt) for attacks and a well-slotted taunt for aggro gathering and the effort to attract the aggro and protect my team mates kept me entertained for the duration of the mission.
In summary - my recent limited and totally atypical (and probably not all that relevant) experiences of playing a tank at low levels demonstrate that it IS still possible to tank and that tankers do still have a role to play in teams.
Defiant 50�s: Generalissimo, Righteous Bob, Splortch, Brutus Cayuga
Union 50's: Chimera Obscura, Diet Anthracite, Grim Proctologist, Puny Little Minion, Raging Bitumen
In Soviet Russia, mission farm you!
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In summary - my recent limited and totally atypical (and probably not all that relevant) experiences of playing a tank at low levels demonstrate that it IS still possible to tank and that tankers do still have a role to play in teams.
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I agree completely. Having recently levelled my Ice Tanker up from 1, I've yet to find myself in a team situation where I didn't feel that I was playing a useful and important role. On the odd occasion when things have gone wrong and I've planted, the rest of the team has normally followed in short order. Personally, I always see that as proof that I was playing a major role in keeping the team alive - which is my definition of what tanking is all about.
Can I herd an entire map's worth of mobs solo and then go and make a cup of tea? Not any more. Can I always grab all the aggro from every spawn with a couple of clicks of the mouse? Nope. Can I actually plant now? Definitely.
Personally, I think these are good things. I like the fact that I have to think about what I'm doing, and that there's an element of risk - both of these make me feel like I'm achieving something. 
I'm looking forward to seeing how my icey guy plays in the higher levels.
well i can talk about tanking in the lower levels with any tank.
Is it the same as before to me pre ED? well yes it is.
Do i see where that guy in america gets his frustrations from? well yes i do.
Does his build make what he says is true? well i can see how it does.
But would i have the same build? no i wont.
do i find tanks important? damn right as it should generally mean less in mission chaos.
my main gripe was not being able to get a sodding travel power till level 30 on my invuln as what i do in the mission was most important.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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my main gripe was not being able to get a sodding travel power till level 30 on my invuln as what i do in the mission was most important.
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I'd be interested in seeing the inv/* build that couldn't find room for a travel power until level 30
Defiant 50�s: Generalissimo, Righteous Bob, Splortch, Brutus Cayuga
Union 50's: Chimera Obscura, Diet Anthracite, Grim Proctologist, Puny Little Minion, Raging Bitumen
In Soviet Russia, mission farm you!
Heh you'd be surprised shannon is a real perfectionist 
this is in fact true and i wouldnt give my slotting away for anyone to look at so ill just give you with a power run down at the time
---------------------------------------------
Exported from Ver: 1.7.5.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder - (http://home.comcast.net/~SherkSilver/index.html)
---------------------------------------------
Name: Shannon (1st ever build)
Level: 32
Archetype: Tanker
Primary: Invulnerability
Secondary: Super Strength
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Resist Physical Damage==> Empty(1)
01) --> Jab==> Empty(1)
02) --> Punch==> Empty(2)
04) --> Temp Invulnerability==> Empty(4)
06) --> Dull Pain==> Empty(6)
08) --> Resist Elements==> Empty(8)
10) --> Unyielding==> Empty(10)
12) --> Taunt==> Empty(12)
14) --> Resist Energies==> Empty(14)
16) --> Hurdle==> Empty(16)
18) --> Invincibility==> Empty(18)
20) --> Health==> Empty(20)
22) --> Stamina==> Empty(22)
24) --> Haymaker==> Empty(24)
26) --> Tough Hide==> Empty(26)
28) --> Hasten==> Empty(28)
30) --> Super Speed==> Empty(30)
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Sprint==> Empty(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Empty(1)
01) --> Gauntlet==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
---------------------------------------------
It wasnt until level lvl 16ish i knew you could stack slots in powers either, she was my first one to get to 50 who i started in march and i was so innocent i had 4 slotted rest 1 interrupt, 1 mod red, 1 rest and 1 recharge i believe.
I was ED ready long ago. In my own 8 man team which i had pretty much everyday from 13 to 38 i tanked how i liked to tank and from 38 i found i was borrowed for AV's alot having very little experience what to expect and on teams that i had no "routine" or familiarity with who looking back at didnt play too well neither. One time running to terra volta for respec took me 2 whole hours lol. it was a four man team too.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Hmmm, there aren't that many ice tanks around Bridger, you might have let some people on to your current ingame identity by making that post, or rounding down the suspects alot anyway 
.
There is such a thing as being too dedicated to your primary you know Resist energies and resist elements were where I slotted in my travel powers in my corresponding first build - I left those passives until the 30's if I recall correctly.
Sorry for the mini thread de-rail
Defiant 50�s: Generalissimo, Righteous Bob, Splortch, Brutus Cayuga
Union 50's: Chimera Obscura, Diet Anthracite, Grim Proctologist, Puny Little Minion, Raging Bitumen
In Soviet Russia, mission farm you!
well there was no guide, i didnt read the forums as i just wanted to play and i think there are alot of people like that still around. The base rates of passives were alot more then too anyway.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Good find Unthing. I read the whole US thread, and it was VERY interesting (especially since i have an Inv/SS at level 17 currently).
Whereas he started off by sayin he felt weak without a defender mid teens etc, once he hit 22 and got SO's he felt a bit better, and once he had KOB, he was pretty happy. He DID though feel he was a bit scranky, and was able to solo +1 maestro without any of his toggles. He goes on to say it was a balancing act between his primary and secondary to what was ACTUALLY keeping him alive.
Even more interesting was the fact that he'd said once he got Rage at 28, and made it perma at 29-30, that he felt he was out-damaging Scrappers and single target blasters! Now i know he'd 6 slotted his attacks by then, but to be one-shotting minions on a Tank and 2 shotting leuts is pretty unbelieveable, especially when SS gets footstomp which supposedly has a higher BI than many if not all Scrapper AoE BI's (his words not mine 
)
So he went from feeling underpowered, so feeling like an over-powered Scrapper.
It's a VERY good read and id suggest you all go and read it, all the way through before assuming it's about low level Tanks being weak
Shnyet AWAY
Having started a tanker after many trials and failures , fire tanks aren´t tanks (sorry when you have to take some many powerpools to be able to tank, combatleaping , acrobatics , tough , it doesn´t really make it a tank)
Its infact easier to make a DA scrapper a tank then a Fire tank a tank .
Invunerable are the best thing to tank simply put unyielding allows you to skip the leaping pool all together .
So i dont know what he wants , cause being invunerable with 3 powerchoices from your primary you are already made a beter tank. Temp Invunerability ,Unyielding ,Invincibility.
Coupled with Dullpain (self heal max hp increase) its "almost" possible to tank without a dedicated healer .
His secondary while being weak SS is also canceled at higher levels cause of RAGE .
The real issue with a Tanker is that at lower levels END isn´t enough to run the toggles and keep out dishing a consistant damage .
Now while some would say , he you are there to tank not to do damage , it is canceled at the upperlevels when SO kicks in .
So there is a big change of playstyle pre SO tanker and SO tankers , pre SO they have to choose what to do tank or scrank , after SO they can go full primary and secondary .
Is it true that tankers are not that wanted after SO , i honestly say NO , but can you do without a tanker after SO .
That is definetly a yes , there are plenty of AT or builds that can achieve the same effect as tanker taking the alpha strike .
Now the real difference between tanker AT and other AT is simply the secondary makes a TOO big difference .
Sorry made a Invunerable Stone tank , cause knowing at higherlevels having a tank isn´t that necessary anymore.
The damage output and utility of the secondary makes a huge difference for fun or playstyle .
Stone secondary is the only one that gave me the utility i wanted , high damage, range attacks and crowdcontrol .
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I agree completely. Having recently levelled my Ice Tanker up from 1, I've yet to find myself in a team situation where I didn't feel that I was playing a useful and important role.
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Same here, while I'll never be able to tank like Spad and Silence used to in the good 'ole days, a tankers role is far from dead. I actually quite enjoy tanking, holding aggro is something I have to concentrate on, and it was nice levelling up in the Hollows and recieving compliments on my tanking.
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but can you do without a tanker after SO .
That is definetly a yes
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As you can do without any other AT at any given point in the game, no ATs are required nor needed to make a team work but some may make the team work easier: if I play a fire blaster or another AoE heavy AT(like Khelds in Nova form) I'd rather have a tanker than a troller in team.
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His secondary while being weak SS is also canceled at higher levels cause of RAGE .
Stone secondary is the only one that gave me the utility i wanted , high damage, range attacks and crowdcontrol .
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I don't know if you've seen a SS tanker play, but SS has the 2nd best AoE attack in the tankers secondary for damage(Footstomp, the first being Fire Sword Circle)but it's made far better than FSC(IMO)due to his knockup that decreases greatly the incoming damage, crowd control like Stone(Hand Clap has knockback and Fault doesn't, but used wisely it can be an advantage, not a drawback)and you can get your big, single target, holding attack 18 levels before you can get it in Stone melee.
SS is the best mix you can hope, good single target damage, a wide, crowd controlling AoE attack(Footstomp has 100% knockup)and as icing on the cake you can pick Rage to add acc and dmg to all of your attacks(the end crash has never been a problem to me).
Other sets may have better powers for each of these aspect(Fire has better AoE, Ice melee has better crowd control and Nrg Melee has better single target attacks)but SS sums them all up
Have a brute with SS , so was tired of making a tanker with SS , in my opnion brute beter then a tanker .
Made a tanker to tank , and scrank for solo , thats why i didn´t pick SS or was interested in SS , in tanker SS jab damage being mediocre while stonefist is moderate, taken airsuperiority to supplement my attacks (if you think knockup is great or hold is great this one is even beter with a recharge :P )
I dont find SS weak or something , knockoutblow being like seismatic smash , just didn´t like the jab , while footstomp is beter then tremor , if i wanted AoE kills then i would have gone for Fire ,found best value all round stone secondary .
But then again this reminds me a bit of way back when i started and made a illusion/rad controller , first player i found said both were weak power choices .
SS is great , but found Stone a bit beter in the damage department and utility thats all at the expense of endurance again .
Oh no Jiaozy, you've thrown my entire build into doubt!!
Having got my Ice/SS tanker to level 26, I'm really enjoying the primary and only have 3 powers in the secondary, Jab, Haymaker and Taunt, Haymaker is a very good attack.
However I was planning on getting the Medicine pool rather than more primary powers at levels 35 and 38 but now you are tempting me into Footstomp at 38, which I decided not to get when I picked up Icicles at 22.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
Footstomp and KOBlow are the cornerstone of the set, both must-have(one high dmg+hold, the other AoE, high dmg+knockup)if you remember the Mayhem mish you made with GG while I was with JB you may remember how much damage I prevented keeping her minions on their b.utt
Personally I would respec later on after you'll get Footstomp(or maybe at lvl 37 ) leaving Icicles(many ice tanks are sayin they're not worth the end they use)out of the build and maybe picking KOBlow instead
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Footstomp and KOBlow are the cornerstone of the set, both must-have(one high dmg+hold, the other AoE, high dmg+knockup)if you remember the Mayhem mish you made with GG while I was with JB you may remember how much damage I prevented keeping her minions on their b.utt
Personally I would respec later on after you'll get Footstomp(or maybe at lvl 37 ) leaving Icicles(many ice tanks are sayin they're not worth the end they use)out of the build and maybe picking KOBlow instead
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If you are comparing Icicles to Foot stomp then you have to slot 2 recharge ( or run Hasten ) to get the same DPS as with Icicles. However endurance per second and damage per endurance of Icicles is significantly better ( by 25% ). If you slotted Foot Stomp for 3 recharge + Hasten you can get 45% more dps but at 4 times the cost. Icicles is currently my highest damaging power, slotted 1xend,1xacc,1xdam whereas Haymaker ( slotted 1xacc,3xdam) does about 75% the damage of Icicles over a play session. It also requires no action on my part. I think the decision to delay Knockout Blow in favour of Icicles was a wise one on this tank, but that was a playstyle choice and I wouldn't have been able to put more than 2 extra slots into it for many levels.
If you are comparing it to other damage auras it does more damage than Mudpots and about 10% less than Blazing Aura ( which is the same endurance cost ). Obviously lethal damage is more heavily resisted than fire but even so, it's not a bad power.
What it doesn't do is any form of control, something that Foot Stomp does and something that can be used ( as you mention ) as damage mitigation. One thing I'm not sure about is whether having Icicles improves my ability to be an aggro magnet. I don't know whether it just gets eclipsed by the aggro from Chilling Embrace or whether they stack in any usable sense.
One real quandry I do have is do I miss out on the medicine pool in exchange for Foot Stomp, or do I get it in the late 40s?
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
It's not only a question of DPS, I don't use Footstomp mainly as a damage source, I use it to make some profit out of Gauntlet and to use he KU as soft control.
It has an AoE FAR wider than Icicles(think it's the same as Combustion)and you can grab a whole spawn of mobs even if they're a bit scattered.
Personally I'm not a fan of the Medicine pool but depending on the epic you'll pick you may go for it later.
I think that the aggro from Icicles stacks with CE (like you need some more taunting )but I'm not completely sure.
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Having started a tanker after many trials and failures , fire tanks aren´t tanks (sorry when you have to take some many powerpools to be able to tank, combatleaping , acrobatics , tough , it doesn´t really make it a tank)
Its infact easier to make a DA scrapper a tank then a Fire tank a tank .
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That's funny, as Fire tanks have higher resistances than DA scrappers...
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Having started a tanker after many trials and failures , fire tanks aren´t tanks (sorry when you have to take some many powerpools to be able to tank, combatleaping , acrobatics , tough , it doesn´t really make it a tank)
Its infact easier to make a DA scrapper a tank then a Fire tank a tank .
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That's funny, as Fire tanks have higher resistances than DA scrappers...
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A DA scrapper tanks using either Cloak of Fear or Oppressive gloom. This means minions in their vicinity don't attack but are either cowering in fear or stunned. Their resistances numbers are pretty poor, maxing out at 37.5 rather than 50% for a fire tank however they have no holes in their defence, their strongest resist is Psychic ( 50% resist IIRC ). They also have a faster recharging self heal than Fire tanks which completely fills their health bar when surrounded. The main advantage Fire tanks have over Dark Armour scrappers is their high hitpoints and better ability to keep aggro.
A Dark Armour tanker would be much better than a Fire Tank at taking damage.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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It's not only a question of DPS, I don't use Footstomp mainly as a damage source, I use it to make some profit out of Gauntlet and to use he KU as soft control.
It has an AoE FAR wider than Icicles(think it's the same as Combustion)and you can grab a whole spawn of mobs even if they're a bit scattered.
Personally I'm not a fan of the Medicine pool but depending on the epic you'll pick you may go for it later.
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I think Combustion is 20ft and FS is 15ft. However Icicles is about 8ft. It is a level 38 power, so really I'm going to play it by ear, I may change tack at level 35 and get Hibernate and Foot stomp at 38. After all Icicles + Foot Stomp will be better than either on it's own.
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I think that the aggro from Icicles stacks with CE (like you need some more taunting )but I'm not completely sure.
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This is ones of those hard to judge things. I have 1 taunt in Chilling Embrace and none in Icicles and if the enemies have any inclination to use melee weapons I can leave my main herd for the 4-5 seconds it takes to jump to an outlier ( to get him into melee mode ) and jump back without losing aggro of the main group. I certainly couldn't do that Pre-Icicles without using a taunt on the main group but then I didn't have a taunt SO in Chilling Embrace then. Also I think that Taunt durations scale with level. Being a complete aggro magnet is fun!
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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Being a complete aggro magnet is fun!
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That's subjective. The only Tanker (-2 to the 8 man team) on Frosty last night for me says otherwise.
Read this thread from the US boards, it is a tanker relating his experiences from level 1 to the mid twenties
He seems to have come to the conclusion that tanking is pointless now. This is strange, it is sounding moderately familiar as I am currently levelling a Ice/SS tank and have reached level 15...
Any comments?
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.