Yup, pretty much in agreement in this.
The only time I've ever used it to any effect is once or twice as a panic button. If my team is in trouble and we're being overrun and we are facing a team faceplant, I'll let that bar get red and trigger Nova. (Rogue is an Nrg/Nrg blaster)
If I can unleash it before I die (i.e. not very often) it can be pretty devastating (I still think Nova is the grand daddy of all the BOOM powers! hehe). However if there is any mobs left standing (an increased possibility since I6 and ED) then you've pretty much signed your own death warrant as you now have no endurance AND a red health bar.
While you lie on the floor waiting for either a) a rez, b) someone to TP you to safety so you can use an awaken, c) your team to clear the area so you can use an awaken or d) on your way back from the hospital (Again!) you can bask in the knowledge that you may have turned that particular battle.
I know some people who use the Fly high and drop to the floor trick to wipe out their health bar prior to a Defiance enhanced snipe as an opening Alpha Strike. That's quite handy if it hits.
But on the whole I do find Defiance fairly useless. Most time I'm either dead before I can use it, or I've been healed by the groups defender before I can use it.
Blueside Level 50's.... Knightingale (Def), Rogue Elevenex (Blast), Lady Rogue (Scrap), Mr Infinity (Tank), Miss Infinity (Troller), Knight.Shade (WS), Knight.Bringer (PB)
Redside Level 50's... Colonel Rogue (Brute), Sergeant Domino (Stalk), F411-OUT (Dom)
Next Project: Psiryn Psi/Psi Cor Global Handle is @Knightingale
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Meh, leap off a tall building and the one shot a purple 
No risk, massive reward
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Hehe! It's a neat trick and I've seen people use it in action. 
However it only works on open maps or street hunts. Can't do it in caves, warehouse, offices etc etc. 
Blueside Level 50's.... Knightingale (Def), Rogue Elevenex (Blast), Lady Rogue (Scrap), Mr Infinity (Tank), Miss Infinity (Troller), Knight.Shade (WS), Knight.Bringer (PB)
Redside Level 50's... Colonel Rogue (Brute), Sergeant Domino (Stalk), F411-OUT (Dom)
Next Project: Psiryn Psi/Psi Cor Global Handle is @Knightingale
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Side Note : What do people think of the idea of Defiance being changed so that, once you run out of Endurance, you can keep blasting, but this time it takes off Health instead of End?
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Grand idea. However, I see no indication whatsoever that the devs are considering a change to Defiance. The bottom line is that Blasters still do more damage than anyone, which the Devs constantly seem to regret, and the real special power we got was the slight Hp increase over Controllers and Defenders.
If Blasters are to get a real special power, even a substandard one like Scourge, I am afraid we will first have to lose damage.
It has helped me finish off enemies in P v P, especially after an AS, gets me good defiance so i can quickly kill the ones who attack me. But, usually in a team i get healed before it is any use, and i never solo so in P v E it is pretty useless to me, unless i get coinstantly battered and healed giving me a hit or 2 where it affects.
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Side Note : What do people think of the idea of Defiance being changed so that, once you run out of Endurance, you can keep blasting, but this time it takes off Health instead of End?
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Grand idea. However, I see no indication whatsoever that the devs are considering a change to Defiance. The bottom line is that Blasters still do more damage than anyone, which the Devs constantly seem to regret, and the real special power we got was the slight Hp increase over Controllers and Defenders.
If Blasters are to get a real special power, even a substandard one like Scourge, I am afraid we will first have to lose damage.
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Except a brute. 850% increase when Fury bar is maxed out. Surely thats enough to far outdamage a blaster.
We have already lost alot of damage.
I did some solo missions last night, can only just 1 shot a lvl50 minion with aim, build up and snipe. Even total focus only takes 3/4 off an even level minion. (without aim and bu). I used to be able to 1 shot +2's with aim and bu. That is quite a major damage difference.
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I think defiance is pants, when you start using damage SOs and actually do stand around long enough to hit defiance it hardly gives you any damage boost what so ever. I remember testing it when i was lvl35-40 when it was introduced and i think i went up a total of 1dmg point lol. Its great if your lower in levels and not at the SO stange yet but it could be improved for the higher lvl blasters out there. Was a great idea, pitty its of no use 
[/ QUOTE ]not entirely true, i can feel the difference when mopping up +2 minions with deefiance, its more like i was in i5.
Starfox
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Side Note : What do people think of the idea of Defiance being changed so that, once you run out of Endurance, you can keep blasting, but this time it takes off Health instead of End?
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Grand idea. However, I see no indication whatsoever that the devs are considering a change to Defiance. The bottom line is that Blasters still do more damage than anyone, which the Devs constantly seem to regret, and the real special power we got was the slight Hp increase over Controllers and Defenders.
If Blasters are to get a real special power, even a substandard one like Scourge, I am afraid we will first have to lose damage.
[/ QUOTE ]as kronos says starfox, blasters are far from the DD that they are sposed to be, and u cant use the range argument, we know it it never really saves u, hence we go to melee to do damage and become a scrapper or brute with no defences.
Plight
Defiance does seem pretty pointless
I'd prefer an increase in attack rate or a guaranteed 'mega-shot' - even id you died as a result it would still take out a few mobs with you!
The Defiance bar only ever gets to full when I have a sliver of health and without any real defence powers (even the Power pools don;t offer that much until, possibly, Epic) I am soon staring at concrete/mud/sewer water etc.
I have noticed that Defiance has a slightly higher effect when i'm teaming but, then, the aggro is off me when I hit mobs with Howl and Shockwave and controllers/tankers/scrappers jump in.
A super-shot (relevant to power set of course) should become available - like Domination for Dominators - it kicks in at 25%, say and is high Acc / high Dmg or maybe even has a status effect
Like people have said - the higher up you get the weaker Defiance gets and with the 'usual' blaster set of Stealth, Stamina, Hasten etc. I find less and less getting into those situations - even in AV fights.
Give blasters their Moment of Glory !
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Side Note : What do people think of the idea of Defiance being changed so that, once you run out of Endurance, you can keep blasting, but this time it takes off Health instead of End?
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Grand idea. However, I see no indication whatsoever that the devs are considering a change to Defiance. The bottom line is that Blasters still do more damage than anyone, which the Devs constantly seem to regret, and the real special power we got was the slight Hp increase over Controllers and Defenders.
If Blasters are to get a real special power, even a substandard one like Scourge, I am afraid we will first have to lose damage.
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Except a brute. 850% increase when Fury bar is maxed out. Surely thats enough to far outdamage a blaster.
We have already lost alot of damage.
I did some solo missions last night, can only just 1 shot a lvl50 minion with aim, build up and snipe. Even total focus only takes 3/4 off an even level minion. (without aim and bu). I used to be able to 1 shot +2's with aim and bu. That is quite a major damage difference.
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Fury doesnt give that big of a buff. Thats actually the damage cap for brutes.
Fury only gives 200%, iirc.
So with and 850% damage cap, what kind of comparable damage are we talking?
Is it near a blaster with theirs at 500%?
I imagine the brawl index is slightly lower, but looking at some of them, their brawl indexes aren't that far behind a blasters highest non-snipe or mid range punch.
So if say a BI of 5 for the brute, 9 for the blaster gives an almost even total. 6 for the brute it will outdamage a blaster.
Well not even sure the 850% thing is still there as a cap, think it got lowered but don't quote me on that.
It's kind of irrelevent anyway, as already stated fury gives about a 200% damage boosted.
I don't know on one hand I would say after a while a brute can out-damage a blaster. This is purely if they get fury going mind you and more so that they it easier to play a brute more carelessly as you have defenses and mez protection.
However off the blocks a brute is compariable to slightly more than a tanks damage with scrapper defenses.
I don't know, I have a 50 scrapper, 50 blaster, and a 40 brute. I don't feel like my blaster is not doing its share of damage, and although you might say range isn't an advantage it does give you more positions to attack from and to as well as having melee for the big damage when you can.
I would say if I put all three against the same mission, probably the scrapper would come out first followed by the brute then the blaster (obviously depending on enemies) but that wouldn't be down to damage output it would be incoming damage and mez.
It may not be the clear cut damage dealer winner it once was the blaster, but it does still have a lot of flexibility in its roll. True holds have been nerfed for them, but with 3 single target holds to choose from, I'm not lacking in control even now.
PvP wise, I would take a blaster any day over a brute at the current 40 cap (assuming a 40 blaster). Fury doesn't work too well in PvP to give brutes their big damage, and certainly in places like bloody bay and sirens, the blaster can string together a lot of very high damage attacks to floor anyone if build correctly. A blaster can litterally explode a very concentrated burst of damage as it has so many high damage attacks to begin with rather than relying on a long slugging match that the brute has to.
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Well not even sure the 850% thing is still there as a cap, think it got lowered but don't quote me on that.
It's kind of irrelevent anyway, as already stated fury gives about a 200% damage boosted.
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Fair enough - but all they have to do to get this is hit stuff. A blaster has to be at ridiculously low health to get anywhere near 200% damage increase - 1 more shot and you'd be dead.
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I don't know on one hand I would say after a while a brute can out-damage a blaster. This is purely if they get fury going mind you and more so that they it easier to play a brute more carelessly as you have defenses and mez protection.
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It is much easier to get fury going than using defiance. Although the starting points for the brute is lower in terms of damage, it's not that much lower, so regularly outdamaging a blaster that doesn't use aim or bu is quite easy
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However off the blocks a brute is compariable to slightly more than a tanks damage with scrapper defenses.
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i.e. a good all rounder that can quickly and easily buff their own damage to that of a blaster with a scrappers defenses.
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I don't know, I have a 50 scrapper, 50 blaster, and a 40 brute. I don't feel like my blaster is not doing its share of damage, and although you might say range isn't an advantage it does give you more positions to attack from and to as well as having melee for the big damage when you can.
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I feel my blaster does it's fair share of damage. Range is definitely and advantage, it's a relatively simple theory to keep a brute at bay and just pick em off. Knockback/down, holds/slows/immobs etc. Depending on their defenses of course. Though knockback, slows and disorient are kings here.
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I would say if I put all three against the same mission, probably the scrapper would come out first followed by the brute then the blaster (obviously depending on enemies) but that wouldn't be down to damage output it would be incoming damage and mez.
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I agree. You need to take things steadier as a blaster. Although i don't think it would be as far apart as perhaps it might first look
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It may not be the clear cut damage dealer winner it once was the blaster, but it does still have a lot of flexibility in its roll. True holds have been nerfed for them, but with 3 single target holds to choose from, I'm not lacking in control even now.
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Depends on your powersets. But it's definitely not the damage dealer it's supposed to be.
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PvP wise, I would take a blaster any day over a brute at the current 40 cap (assuming a 40 blaster). Fury doesn't work too well in PvP to give brutes their big damage, and certainly in places like bloody bay and sirens, the blaster can string together a lot of very high damage attacks to floor anyone if build correctly. A blaster can litterally explode a very concentrated burst of damage as it has so many high damage attacks to begin with rather than relying on a long slugging match that the brute has to.
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Definitely. PvP you just can't get that fury bar rising...it's mighty easy to get low on HP though for a blaster!
replying to OP:
defiance helps first 15 lvls, but then again - no debt until lvl 10 makes it only viable for the latter 5. Then you start to get to baddies that with 2-4 minions bearing down on you -> dead. Add a troll boss and that one alone wipes the floor with ya in 2 hits.
After 15 it gets just silly. Give us back our damage potential, loose defiance and we're once again the king of damagedealers. As of now (me en/en/elec) scrappers, tankers and even controllers outdamage me
Brute damage cap is 850%, blaster 500%. Brute base damage is 70% of blaster base IIRC, so capped brute damage would be around the same as a blaster with (850*0.7) 595% damage. However, it's damn hard to get to that 850% damage cap with a brute, and blasters have IMO better damaging attacks, so blasters still win with overall damage output.
I think the blaster class is inherently flawed in that this is not a fantasy MMO, and more or less every enemy in the entire game has a ranged attack, and his ranged attack are not neccesarily less damaging than melee attacks.
RANGE IS NOT A DEFENSE.
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I think the blaster class is inherently flawed in that this is not a fantasy MMO, and more or less every enemy in the entire game has a ranged attack, and his ranged attack are not neccesarily less damaging than melee attacks.
RANGE IS NOT A DEFENSE.
[/ QUOTE ]Yup, and the fact that ranged attacks are less damaging than melee makes the most damagin character type actually blapper instead of blaster.
Exactly! The whole idea is flawed. If the devs are really so happy with Defiance, why don't they build the AT around that in the way that the CoV ATs are completely built around their inherents?
Y'know, the devs constantly say that they don't think there's anything wrong with defiance, but I've yet to hear a dev actually give a REASON why they find our inherent non-gimped.
Oh, well, it could be worse. Defenders have Vigilance.
I love blasters but i think that Defiance is bad....... Need much more shields to use Defiance good.
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Exactly! The whole idea is flawed. If the devs are really so happy with Defiance, why don't they build the AT around that in the way that the CoV ATs are completely built around their inherents?
Y'know, the devs constantly say that they don't think there's anything wrong with defiance, but I've yet to hear a dev actually give a REASON why they find our inherent non-gimped.
Oh, well, it could be worse. Defenders have Vigilance.
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Because the COV AT's were built from the ground up and the COH Inherants were a rushed through half baked update!!!
I personally don't find defiance terribly useful, but then perhaps it doesn't have to be.
As has been pointed out, the CoV ATs were designed with their inherents being integral to how that AT works:
without Fury, Brutes are [censored]!
without Hide and the critical damage attainable from it, Stalkers are worthless.
In CoH, some of the ATs had inherents from the start, they just weren't presented with a little power icon - Scrapper criticals, a tankers "gauntlet" - and these ATs were balanced taking these inherent abilities into account.
Controllers were given their inherent to make the earlier game more viable, and having their ability to summon multiple pets was removed to even out their abilities over the long term.
Blasters and Defenders were given their inherents simply because someone decided every AT needed an inherent power, and they're both of limited utility because the ATs were already deemed balanced without them, so adding any significant power would make them overpowered.
So yes, defiance is [censored], but only because blasters never really needed it.
Of course all the tweaking and hacking at powers has skewed things somewhat, and ED has affected pretty much everyone to a degree, so yes, maybe blasters could use a more effective inherent, or simply have their base damage scaled up a little.
But then other ATs have been messed up something rotten too. Personally I won't touch a Tanker now, but I'm still pretty happy with my Blaster.
(apologies for the ramble - I do that sometimes...)
@Hakeswell
Union Ilservian, Evinlea
Defiant Expeditor, Hakeswell
Arc: 70119 Hellion Initiation
I think it came into play when i was mid 30s, personally i try to never let my health get low enough for the extra power to kick in...simply because as many peeps have said that at the levels i was fighting being in the red was nothing more than being 1 hit away from debt.
I would much prefer the double damage power that Corruptors get on Villians.
Range IS a defence. A blaster should consider running if there's 4+ mobs attacking at once, but I've taken Red Vampyris on at level 25 (with no Fitness) juggling my Hasten, Knockback and snipe/build-up to take chunks out of his health. Defiance kicks in, bye bye.
Defiance isn't supposed to be that useful. It's a last resort - if I get down to that level of health then I fire off a Ball Lightning, sure, tanks hate it, but I'll probably take a few down with me, while defs / trollers back off. It's the AT job - kill, and be damned fast about it.
So Blaster's inherent is a damage buff to be used as a last resort, i.e, its risky, whereas Scrapper's and controller's inherents are damage buffs that actually mitigate risk? Spot the problem?
It's not that good because when you're a higher level you will want your HP up rather than down
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Hopefully you've slotted enough dmg so you don't have to use it. Hopefully.
Blaster is a RANGED support, scrappers and defenders get theirs because it meshes well with what they do. If I get down to defiance, it's because it's went mad, so you get defiance - an inherent power that boosts your attack by a gazillion so you fire off one or two lucky shots as a last stand before you either run (if you're at the back of the class like a good little blaster) or die with the rest of the team.
I'm pretty sure it looked good on paper.
With the current trend in blapping, I'm not surprised defiance isn't working the way it's 'supposed' to be working.
I'm sure we've had this discussion before but here's my penny's worth...
Defiance is a waste of programming effort for higher level blasters. By the time your health gets low enough to get any benefit from defiance, you're one hit from faceplanting. In fact, you're probably about a tenth of a hit from faceplanting..
Damage post ED is so poor that the extra boost given by defiance is really not worth hanging around for. Better to just start running and hope you don't get shot in the back.