White salvage to order: a moral necessity
By
Aliana Blue,
Posted on: 2009-07-27 10:17 in Mission Architect
Buying whites introdcues a necessary inefficiency (the price would be significantly more than the current 8), and going from previous experience with similar changes, it would drive prices up even higher.
Each pool you roll in has 6. After 10 rolls there is a 16% chnace you wont have the one you area after (20 its 2.5%), but you have 10 salvage you can sell, and swap the inf out for the one you want.
Tickets have depleted common salvage as it is. I have no desire to see the situation made worse, which would be the net effect of your sugegstion.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
That assumes that the chances for any one item dropping are equal, and after several tries I am not convinced that is the case.
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My previous (incomplete) checking of the tiers showed the variation to be minimal over a decent number of rolls.
I'll quite happily gather a fresh data set for you, which type/teir would you like anlaysed ?
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
I am finding that the random rolls for white either give me what I want quickly, or give me enough good pieces to sell to make the whole thing worthwhile regardless.
And I usually allow room in both my inventory and my tickets to roll for as long as I need to get exactly what I want.
No need for change as far as I'm concerned.
Common salvage on both markets is, in many (most?) cases, getting back on track. The supply on several items is climbing back into 4 figures (at least one of those items rarely even got to 4 figures pre-MA) and prices are dropping.
Of course, this coming weekend is going to make it all go pear-shaped... but, point is, common salvage is, once again, becoming common. Yah, there are outliers. There will always be outliers. Yah, there are price spikes. There will always be price spikes. But, overall, I've watched the condition of common salvage steadily improve since the tremendous upset that occurred immediately after MA's release.
Not so much with the uncommons. Compared to pre-MA prices, they're still quite inflated. At this point, I'm beginning to think a lot of them aren't going to come down until probably Going Rogue hits the scene.
Rares equalized across the board, which--aside from being kinda weird--was, I think, probably a net plus. However, some of them are starting to creep up again, while the formerly cheap stuff has remained inflated. If that trend continues, it'll negate the overall advantage that was gained.
So, in the end, while I find the idea of buying specific pieces of common salvage to be an attractive one, considering everything I've seen in these past few months, I have to agree with Catwhoorg's assessment. Introducing that option would be (really) bad for the market. Convenient in the immediate, but we'd be suffering a loss overall as everything becomes more and more expensive.
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It is rather inefficient throwing tickets at random rolls for white common invention salvage, given that you may fill your inventory with junk before you get what you need, even if you sell all the unneeded stuff you got. You can also run out of tickets. I try to get most pieces of white salvage I need this way, since the auction house prices lately are out of control and not something I would want to reward. While I am happy to undercut the gougers, it would appear that not enough are doing it.
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Bid what you think it's worth, then log out. Sunday I bought 10 ancient artifacts for 1,000, when they were mainly going for 10x that, and the order was filled by the time I logged the toon back on to check 3 hours later.
What you, and everyone else need to realize is that WW is not a store. It is an auction house. If you want something right now, then you will pay through the nose for it.
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Prices like that shock the conscience, especially since no 1-25 user can acquire the kind of inf necessary to purchase them at the AH without abusive play or abusive market manipulations.
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WHAT!!?? Prices like that do shock the conscience, however, MA makes it easy to be a millionaire. I only run story-based arcs, and one single mission gives me enough tickets to either gamble on bronze rolls and get a recipe to craft that sells for several million or buy an uncommon tier 2 or 3 that is selling for several hundred thousand.
No abusive play nor market manipulations required. I prefer to spend as little time at the market as I can, which means sell my goods and figure out what I need to buy for my own use. Not flip salvage or figure out what I can buy and craft for profit.
Right now, every toon I have between 7 and 15th level that has used MA is a multi-millionaire. Mainly I've gone for bronze rolls. I might think I must have gotten lucky except for the fact that we're talking over a dozen characters.
So this statement is flat-out false.
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I think it's become a moral necessity to allow you to buy white salvage to order, the same way that you can buy yellow and orange. Random rolls for uncommon/rare salvage might also be a good idea. Allowing them to be purchased to order would allow them to be acquired through intended play in the MA, while putting downward pressure on the inflationary spiral in the AH. It would also discourage inf selling and abusive farming. Purchasing white salvage to order is probably overdue and would be for the good of the game generally.
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I strongly disagree with you on being able to choose common salvage. You're wrong if you think it will do any of the things you believe it will. It will make it unlikely that those who don't have the "I want it NAO!" syndrome won;t be able to buy it for reasonable prices.
I do think that uncommon and rares should be random, however, at a much lower price than they are now. Random means more end up on the market.
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Mainly I've gone for bronze rolls. I might think I must have gotten lucky except for the fact that we're talking over a dozen characters.
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I do not make a habit of wasting tickets on recipe rolls. Every time I've done that, I've gotten burned. It is vexing that I have to waste tickets to acquire white salvage also.
The Golden Rule forbids prices from rising or falling based on supply and demand. Even if I could make enough inf selling the junk I get for more than it's worth to buy it at auction for more than it's worth, that only compounds the evil. Better to have even common salvage purchasable for a fixed and known quantity of tickets.
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Mainly I've gone for bronze rolls. I might think I must have gotten lucky except for the fact that we're talking over a dozen characters.
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I do not make a habit of wasting tickets on recipe rolls. Every time I've done that, I've gotten burned. It is vexing that I have to waste tickets to acquire white salvage also.
The Golden Rule forbids prices from rising or falling based on supply and demand. Even if I could make enough inf selling the junk I get for more than it's worth to buy it at auction for more than it's worth, that only compounds the evil. Better to have even common salvage purchasable for a fixed and known quantity of tickets.
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You don't have to list your items for high prices. If you really want to follow the golden rule, list all your salvage for what it'd sell for at a store.
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You don't have to list your items for high prices. If you really want to follow the golden rule, list all your salvage for what it'd sell for at a store.
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Yes, that's what I usually do.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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You don't have to list your items for high prices. If you really want to follow the golden rule, list all your salvage for what it'd sell for at a store.
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Yes, that's what I usually do.
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For salvage, I always list it for what stores pay for it. 250, 1000, or 5000.
And I still stay ahead of the game on money coming in because someone inevitably has some ridiculously high bid in on a piece of salvage that I list. Sure, sometimes I have to leave it there for a mission or two, but I've not gone more than 3 missions without selling everything I had just put in WW in quite some time.
Likely before AE came out.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
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Just create a personal SG and add in salvage racks. That way for all your alts you can just pool the excess salvage so you dont have to roll as often. I pretty much dont buy anything on the market unless I just absolutely have to. What I been doing is crafting as much of the purples and procs to use up all the orange salvage I have stored to make more room for the white salvage. Then I only have to just buy orange with tickets exactly when I need it and not worry about it taking up space.
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I usually post salvage and recipes far below the going rate but not what I could get in stores. I'm not in a hurry to get paid so if takes longer to sell, it takes longer.
I used to list things for the vendor price. Until I realized that I was selling for a song ... but paying through the nose when I needed the exact same piece of salvage or recipe later on, which didn't sit well with me at all.
The system is the system, so I'll make the best of it.
Worse, when you price items for so little, it seems that it doesn't help anyway. I see people buying for 11, 111 and 1,111 influence ... and then turning those items around and flip those items and charge full frieght.
That makes me think that I'm just lining the pockets of those who take the most advantage of the market. By charging more, but more fairly, I think people wind up better in the long run.
It's funny that thanks to being able to buy the exact rares and uncommons I need I've taken to hoarding common salvage and selling off everything else for 10 inf a pop. Most of the racks in the base and personal vaults are crammed with commons as a result.
Hey, where all the white salvage at?
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Prices like that shock the conscience...
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I do the same thing. I keep an occasional orange I know I will need. But I no longer stock up on them for the future while vendoring at least the tech white stuff, which usually was not worth the trip to put up for sale.
And, the ability to acquire them at will has exerted a calming value on prices. Prices on some oranges used to range from 1.5M and higher; it's rare to see them selling for more than 800K blue side now. This experience suggests that making white salvage purchasable to order will also help calm the AH markets. Knowing there's another way to get specific pieces you need will lead to more reasonable prices being set, and temporary peaks will be undercut.
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"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Most of my white salvage just gets tossed up on the market for 1 inf unless its like a luck charm or something, just to get credit to the next market badge. This is of course CoV side where the market is some what less filled than the hero side. When i need white salvage i just buy it, most of its not that much to begin with and after you get out of the 20 and below range it seems to get better in price. I never have used tickets to get white salvage, normally I just use it to get recipes which sell better anyway (since all you get are set recipes i think), some times for rare salvage. But for sure drops its to the market for me.
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It's funny that thanks to being able to buy the exact rares and uncommons I need I've taken to hoarding common salvage and selling off everything else for 10 inf a pop. Most of the racks in the base and personal vaults are crammed with commons as a result.
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That's odd, I do the exact opposite: hoard everything except common salvage. Common salvage, at 8 tickets per random roll, is just incredibly easy to generate on demand whenever I happen to care.
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And, the ability to acquire them at will has exerted a calming value on prices. Prices on some oranges used to range from 1.5M and higher; it's rare to see them selling for more than 800K blue side now. This experience suggests that making white salvage purchasable to order will also help calm the AH markets. Knowing there's another way to get specific pieces you need will lead to more reasonable prices being set, and temporary peaks will be undercut.
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This is true for rares, but not for uncommons. That's because uncommon salvage was usually priced at far below its actual value -- you could get most anything for 300-400, although you could sell at a store for 1000.
In response to the original poster:
My experience with random common salvage rolls is not so dire. When I've needed a specific item and the prices on the market were too ridiculous, I've typically gotten what I need in a few rolls. However, you cannot expect that -- each time you roll you have the same chance you had the previous time to get that item. Which means there's no guarantee that you'll ever get that Luck Charm -- but it's highly likely you'll get it within 8-12 tries.
If you want to avoid these kinds of problems, you have to plan ahead. I make my IOs one to three levels ahead of time. In preparation for this I save 2-3 of each type of common salvage in the vault or in market slots until I start making IO sets in earnest around level 27-30. I sell off the excess that I can't store.
I choose the missions I do based on the type of salvage I'll need. Historically arcane salvage had been more expensive, so I favor the Croatoa arcs starting at level 25. Because of this, I'm rarely at the mercy of the market because I supply myself with most of my salvage needs.
I fail to understand how it's a "moral necessity."
How is it any different now than it was before AE? Prices? Look back. People complained about prices from the beginning. I remember even in beta, it was proposed Boresights were going to be the hot commodity due to being needed for level 30 ACC IO's. ( right reasons, wrong salvage, it was Alch silvers) Availability? You can still get it the same way we all used to. Go run missions, either AE or other. The 8 ticket cost for random is similar ( although I think better ) to how we used to get salvage we didn't want to pay for. Your argument is no different than if there was no AE. "I farmed DA for an hour . Filled my salvage and still didn't get the one I needed." Sound familiar? Tickets just mean you have more chances to get what you want. And sometimes, the dice don't roll your way.
I think it's fine the way it is.
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It is rather inefficient throwing tickets at random rolls for white common invention salvage, given that you may fill your inventory with junk before you get what you need, even if you sell all the unneeded stuff you got. You can also run out of tickets.
On the other hand, when you go to sell your unneeded common salvage, another problem becomes obvious. More than 65,000 inf. for a Spell Scroll? Prices like that shock, especially since no 1-25 user can acquire the kind of inf necessary to purchase them at the AH without abusive play or abusive market manipulations.
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No morals involved (no societal impact via CoX, no one's livelihood on the line via game play other than that of the devs, playing the game has no impact on the Common Good); therefore, title fixed.
A few reactions:
1) If you fill up with junk, delete junk (Improvised Cybernetic, I'm looking at you). Continue rolling.
2) If you run out of tickets, go get more (rather easy to do).
3) Any newbie can get a 65K spell scroll: Kill some Hellions until one drops. Sell it. Between 5K-75K should result. Repeat as necessary. Or roll tickets until several drop. Go sell them.
4) As some have pointed out already, wins at the market are via patience. Bid 1-5K on some Spell Scrolls. Go play, come back, pick up patient loot.
No "abusive" market practices necessary. Telling as many people as possible to bid patiently, and do things that might result in a sought drop will solve any individual's lack of salvage within the existing game mechanics.
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since the auction house prices lately are out of control and not something I would want to reward. While I am happy to undercut the gougers, it would appear that not enough are doing it.
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It's a matter of personal preferance. I would rather blow 60 tickets on a random bronze roll than to use them on white salvage. 100k for a white salvage is a drop in the bucket when I'm crafting and reselling a random bronze roll recipe for 10-50mil. Quite often I just bid 50k for any white salvage I need regardless of the past history becauase 50k just isn't that much to any of my toons. My lowest level toon is 18 and he has 40ish mil on him atm from drops.
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On the other hand, when you go to sell your unneeded common salvage, another problem becomes obvious. More than 65,000 inf. for a Spell Scroll? Prices like that shock the conscience, especially since no 1-25 user can acquire the kind of inf necessary to purchase them at the AH without abusive play or abusive market manipulations.
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What do you mean by abusive play? I run AE missions pre level 22 for the added crutch. I usually end up with 50mil+ before I hit lvl 22 from random rolls. I usually run random AE arcs whether they are farms or not, because content is content to me. It's all fun.
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I think it's become a moral necessity to allow you to buy white salvage to order, the same way that you can buy yellow and orange. Random rolls for uncommon/rare salvage might also be a good idea.
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I don't think it's a moral necessity, but it doesn't matter to me whether they allow people to buy common salvage or not.
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It would also discourage inf selling and abusive farming.
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Again, what do you mean by abusive farming? Tickets for random rolls that net quite a bit of inf can be acquired through regular game play in AE. I'm still able to bring in over 100mil a day by fighting bosses in AE on a level 50, and have no problem getting 9999 tickets by level 22 on any toon.
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Purchasing white salvage to order is probably overdue and would be for the good of the game generally.
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I wouldn't mind if they added this, and I wouldn't mind if they didn't. Frankly, I was surprised when I found out you had to random roll for the commons anyways.
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It's funny that thanks to being able to buy the exact rares and uncommons I need I've taken to hoarding common salvage and selling off everything else for 10 inf a pop. Most of the racks in the base and personal vaults are crammed with commons as a result.
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That's odd, I do the exact opposite: hoard everything except common salvage. Common salvage, at 8 tickets per random roll, is just incredibly easy to generate on demand whenever I happen to care.
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Because for every occasion where I get the exact common I want on the first few rolls there are several occasions where I can roll it dozens of times and not get it at all. Especially annoying when the "random" roll gives you the same two items you didn't want over and over and over.
With those odds I have a better chance of just running a couple paper missions and getting it from a drop.
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Rares equalized across the board, which--aside from being kinda weird--was, I think, probably a net plus. However, some of them are starting to creep up again, while the formerly cheap stuff has remained inflated. If that trend continues, it'll negate the overall advantage that was gained.
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I don't think it was that weird, it was pretty predictable if one thought that the MiA would meet with a moderate amount of success.
Rares are a profit opportunity that competes with everything else that can be bought from tickets, so after the initial shakeup (bronze roll rush and all that), it's normal for all rares to settle down at a close price range. The "constant" amount coming from regular play diminishes as the ticket generation raises, and because you can choose what to buy, "up" outliers are quickly undercut for profit, whereas cheaper pieces are not generated with tickets until the price picks up.
In the same way, there'll be a limit on how high the ones that are creeping up will go. After all, if it looks profitable, anyone can go whack some bosses and drop some rares in the market for profit. In a way, the variability of the cost of rares may be an indirect reflection of MiA usage: The more it's used, the less variable prices should be.
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Another use for excess salvage are the empowerment stations in a base. You can even get knockback protection from those things. In spite of the fact that the auras can be ugly at time, you can get some nice buffs.
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"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
It is rather inefficient throwing tickets at random rolls for white common invention salvage, given that you may fill your inventory with junk before you get what you need, even if you sell all the unneeded stuff you got. You can also run out of tickets. I try to get most pieces of white salvage I need this way, since the auction house prices lately are out of control and not something I would want to reward. While I am happy to undercut the gougers, it would appear that not enough are doing it.
On the other hand, when you go to sell your unneeded common salvage, another problem becomes obvious. More than 65,000 inf. for a Spell Scroll? Prices like that shock the conscience, especially since no 1-25 user can acquire the kind of inf necessary to purchase them at the AH without abusive play or abusive market manipulations.
I think it's become a moral necessity to allow you to buy white salvage to order, the same way that you can buy yellow and orange. Random rolls for uncommon/rare salvage might also be a good idea. Allowing them to be purchased to order would allow them to be acquired through intended play in the MA, while putting downward pressure on the inflationary spiral in the AH. It would also discourage inf selling and abusive farming. Purchasing white salvage to order is probably overdue and would be for the good of the game generally.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison