Make Endurance Enhancements Schedule D

Currently Endurance Reduction Enhancements are Schedule A (maxing out at 38%). Endurance Reduction Enhancements should be moved to Schedule D (maxing out at 69%).

The benefits of this are that Staminaless builds become more viable and the sub-20 game becomes less problematic for Endurance management. This helps the game become even more fun, while maintaining Endurance and Endurance management as valid aspects of the game (ie, the schedule change, while helpful, would not effectively eliminate Endurance and its management from the game).

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Don't think it's too likely to happen, but what the hell...

/signed.

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Intriguing.

Tentatively /signed.

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While I can see it being useful for the pre-20 levels, it would completely overpowered for levels 22 and above. Got that power that takes 20 endurance? Congratulations. With one SO it now takes 6 endurance. That situational toggle that takes 1.5 end/sec? Now it takes 0.4 end/sec with one SO and you can keep it on all the time.

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D might be a bit much. C, though... maybe. (+3 DO, 23%, +3 SO, 46%.)

I don't really see a need for it, but I don't see much of an issue against going to C. I just think the devs would be more wary if they looked at D (which right now holds only KB according to PWiki.)

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While I can see it being useful for the pre-20 levels, it would completely overpowered for levels 22 and above. Got that power that takes 20 endurance? Congratulations. With one SO it now takes 6 endurance. That situational toggle that takes 1.5 end/sec? Now it takes 0.4 end/sec with one SO and you can keep it on all the time.

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I like your math. Unfortunately, it's wrong. ;-)


Remember that Endurance Reduction uses the formula:

New Endurance Cost = Base Endurance Cost/(1+Enhancement)



As such, a 100% EndRed slotting would lower a 20 Endurace power to 10, not to 0.

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While I can see it being useful for the pre-20 levels, it would completely overpowered for levels 22 and above. Got that power that takes 20 endurance? Congratulations. With one SO it now takes 6 endurance. That situational toggle that takes 1.5 end/sec? Now it takes 0.4 end/sec with one SO and you can keep it on all the time.

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I like your math. Unfortunately, it's wrong. ;-)


Remember that Endurance Reduction uses the formula:

New Endurance Cost = Base Endurance Cost/(1+Enhancement)



As such, a 100% EndRed slotting would lower a 20 Endurace power to 10, not to 0.

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Oh, good call. Not sure which formula I was thinking of...

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I'd like this, I really would.

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Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.

Very good idea.

Starting from nothing, a Damage enhancement or a End Redux enhancement will offer the same damage per endurance benefit.

But the damage one offers superior dmaage per second too, so its a no brainer which one to slot currently.

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This is a really awesome idea. By far one of the best I've heard for dealing with endurance issues in this game.

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Starting from nothing, a Damage enhancement or a End Redux enhancement will offer the same damage per endurance benefit.

But the damage one offers superior dmaage per second too, so its a no brainer which one to slot currently.

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It is a no brainer. You slot for End Redux.

My SS/Inv Brute could solo maps set to diff 2 with maybe a single Rest break from the early teens onwards. 1 Acc and 2 End Red was all I slotted initially in her attacks. I didn't start slotting in Damage until the 30s.

I play the pre-20 levels a lot, and with a very few exceptions I don't see what all the fuss is about End. Anyone who slots for Damage before End Redux has noone but themselves to blame for their pre-Stamina troubles.

Smurphy's Endurance Dysfunction Guide should be a sticky in every AT forum.

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Starting from nothing, a Damage enhancement or a End Redux enhancement will offer the same damage per endurance benefit.

But the damage one offers superior dmaage per second too, so its a no brainer which one to slot currently.

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It is a no brainer. You slot for End Redux.

My SS/Inv Brute could solo maps set to diff 2 with maybe a single Rest break from the early teens onwards. 1 Acc and 2 End Red was all I slotted initially in her attacks. I didn't start slotting in Damage until the 30s.

I play the pre-20 levels a lot, and with a very few exceptions I don't see what all the fuss is about End. Anyone who slots for Damage before End Redux has noone but themselves to blame for their pre-Stamina troubles.

Smurphy's Endurance Dysfunction Guide should be a sticky in every AT forum.

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Let's try a simple example:

Let's take a power that does 10 damage, recharges in 9 seconds, animates in 1 second and costs 10 endurance

[u]Slotting with one damage SO (or two damage DOs for the pre-SO folks)[u]

Base damage = 10
Enhanced damage = 13.3

Damage per endurance = Damage(13.3)/Endurance(10)=1.33
Damage per second = Damage(13.3)/[Recharge(9)+Animation(1)]=1.33

[u]Slotting with one endurance SO (or two endurance DOs for the pre-SO folks)[u]

Base endurance cost = 10
Enhanced endurance cost = 7.5

Damage per endurance = Damage(10)/Endurance(7.5)=1.33
Damage per second = Damage(10)/[Recharge(9)+Animation(1)]=1


In your example, it works for Brutes because they get the free damage from Fury, but for most other ATs it doesn't make sense to slot for endurance until you're at the ED cap for damage. Stronger attacks means, in general, you use less attacks to kill the same amount of mob. This is why right now, damage enhancers provide an equivalent benefit to endurance cost as an endurance reducer does (to the ED cap).

However, stronger attacks also kill faster and so you increase your DPS at the same time and in the same proportion.

Damage enhancers are currently significantly more important that endurance and recharge reducers to most ATs. Thus why I signed the OP's idea even though I don't think it will happen.

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Starting from nothing, a Damage enhancement or a End Redux enhancement will offer the same damage per endurance benefit.

But the damage one offers superior dmaage per second too, so its a no brainer which one to slot currently.

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It is a no brainer. You slot for End Redux.

My SS/Inv Brute could solo maps set to diff 2 with maybe a single Rest break from the early teens onwards. 1 Acc and 2 End Red was all I slotted initially in her attacks. I didn't start slotting in Damage until the 30s.

I play the pre-20 levels a lot, and with a very few exceptions I don't see what all the fuss is about End. Anyone who slots for Damage before End Redux has noone but themselves to blame for their pre-Stamina troubles.

Smurphy's Endurance Dysfunction Guide should be a sticky in every AT forum.

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Thats a very Brute-centric view.

I could counter by assuming that everyone is a Defender with injured teammates and prove that Damage slotting gives better DPE than End redux slotting

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Also: If an attack does 50 points damage for 10 endurance, and the wounded minion has only 40 HP left, then any additional damage slotting won't do any good, but endred slotting will.
Sorry, I played a Broadsworder who wasted a lot of End that way.

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In your example, it works for Brutes because they get the free damage from Fury, but for most other ATs it doesn't make sense to slot for endurance until you're at the ED cap for damage. Stronger attacks means, in general, you use less attacks to kill the same amount of mob. This is why right now, damage enhancers provide an equivalent benefit to endurance cost as an endurance reducer does (to the ED cap).

However, stronger attacks also kill faster and so you increase your DPS at the same time and in the same proportion.

Damage enhancers are currently significantly more important that endurance and recharge reducers to most ATs. Thus why I signed the OP's idea even though I don't think it will happen.

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I certainly can't argue with your numbers, or the reasoning you back them up with, but I will say that whilst Brutes do get that all important damage bonus from Fury they do have to build it up and maintain it. The need to keep running from mob to mob to hold onto that hard won Fury bar makes Brutes very End intensive, which is why I picked a Brute as an example. I'd go so far as to say that most of what I've learned about managing my characters' End I've learned on Brutes.

Fair point though. I do slot for Damage in most of my ATs, but only after at least 1 Acc and 1 End Redux. Similarly, other powers, especially toggles, get End Redux early.

I may not have the same DPS per mob, but the fact that I can go from one group to the next with little downtime should more than balance that out, on any AT.

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Also: If an attack does 50 points damage for 10 endurance, and the wounded minion has only 40 HP left, then any additional damage slotting won't do any good, but endred slotting will.
Sorry, I played a Broadsworder who wasted a lot of End that way.

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As well: If an attack does 40 points of damage for 10 endurance, and the minion have 50 HP, a damage SO means a dead minion with one attack, while an end reducer means a dead minion with two attacks for a wasted 5 end and whatever the recharge/animation time.

Works both ways.

It's why I love Parry on my Broadsword/Regen. Does just enough damage to deal with situations like that while my big hitters...HIT BIG!

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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

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Fair point though. I do slot for Damage in most of my ATs, but only after at least 1 Acc and 1 End Redux. Similarly, other powers, especially toggles, get End Redux early.

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Toggles are the LEAST of your problem when it comes to endurance management. Oftentimes an entire defence set's worth of toggles costs less than a single attack from an attack set. Let me give you an example of something I've calculated before. Let's take my Archery/Devices Blaster. Targeting Drone costs 0.31 endurance points per second and Cloaking Device costs 0.26 endurance points per second. Together, all the set's toggles cost 0.57 endurance points per second, around the same as a damage aura. JUST Snap Shot costs you ~1.179 endurance points per second if you spam it. That's one attack, and it costs twice as much as both toggles combined.

Toggles do use up endurance, but not nearly as much as everyone makes them out to waste. About the only thing they DO hurt in is recovering after a fight, because attacks stop costing when you stop attacking, but toggles stay on unless you shut them down.

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As for the idea itself, yes, I would very much like to see that happen. I love it! It's such a simple, elegant idea, and yet it adresses one of the biggest problems I have with this game - Stamina. I would very much love it if slotting for endurance were more meaningful than it currently is, and this accomplishes that. As was said, D may be a bit too much (not that I'd refuse it), but C certainly does feel right.

Make it so!

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