So with being able to have 2 sets...
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-07-22 10:08 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Have one more:|
Originally Posted by Masterdevil
Seems like ppl have run out of arguments as to why not to implement this. (Not saying that the one's that were said were valid).
 so let the /signs roll in then. |
The devs have confirmed this will never happen.
And not the old devs. The current devs.
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Not quite. The VEAT, "somewhat," but you can't switch from being a Bane/Crab to a Widow/Fort. HEATs even less so - you're still a Peacebringer or Warshade with the Luminous or Umbral sets. You can't pick up the PB primary and WS secondary. |
Originally Posted by BlueRabbit
Well, to be fair, VEAT already have this. Your SoA can go from Crab to Bane and back and your WoA can go from Widow to Fortunata and back. To some extent the HEAT can also do the same: from single or dual form to triform and back. So that's four out of 14 AT where this is already alowed.
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Taking or dropping triform (or any forms) does not make them a new character, any more than a blaster deciding to respec out of their snipe if they had one. It's simply a power choice.
And for the OP - I could swear I've posted this at least once since the forum change:
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Welcome to the forum. You have posted one of the oft repeated suggestions, "Give us a full respec." Disclaimer Yes. This is a cut and paste reply that I keep handy, as well as a quick bit of instruction on how to search. Neither are meant to cause fights or to be insulting. The search instructions are in, not just because forum rules say flat out to search, but to help you and anyone else reading this use the search tool effectively. The body of the cut and paste reply is the way it is because we've seen these arguments numerous times before. They're a summary of the salient points that come up each time. They are not here to insult you, make you feel stupid or otherwise "bring you down a peg." Instead, they are meant as instruction and information. Please read through the points and the explanation behind them to see the issues that are commonly brought up in response. They may not always match your suggestion 100% - in fact, you may have explained around one or two of them - but they're there for consideration and refinement of your idea. Yes, I do look forward to the time, with some of these suggestions, that someone not only addresses all the points, but does so exceptionally well. It'll probably be added to the end of the cut/paste reply, with credit. For now, though, read and consider the points. They really are just there to help you, and move discussion along to help ideas evolve. If you're going to see this and say an "evil forum vet is just shooting down your idea," or "You think you're the last word because of your post count," you're wrong. Heck, if you say the second, you've just worried more about my post count than I have in the last four plus years. TL,DR reply No. It breaks things too badly. Searching tips 1. Click on "Search" up at the top of the forum. 2. On the left, under "Forum(s) to search," select "Suggestions and ideas." 3. On the right, Keyword Search Terms. This is probably where your problem was if you did search. Try the following, exactly as typed: +respec -"re: " This will search for anything with the string "Respec" in the title, including Full Respec, I don't get any respect, and Respec Trial. .The -re: portion of it removes replies, so you'll see the root of every thread that comes up, letting you see just how many threads there are on this. (The last helps for other subjects, as well.) Be sure to put the space between the colon and last quote. 4. Click the "In subject" radio button. This is a search, not a cute blonde in a bikini. Here, you want to ignore the body. 5. Leave Username Search blank. 6. Date range, Newer Than, change the 1 to a 3, and the time to Months. 7. Result format doesn't matter. Click on "Submit." Now, on to the topic at hand.... Why a full respec is not a good idea for COH. So, you've played your Apathy/Dual Wet Noodle Tank to 50 and decided you don't like him. You've come to the forums and said "Why not let me completely respec the character!" Well, people consider a "full respec" to be different things. I'm going to cover a complete and total character respec. If some of them don't apply, well, this comes up enough for this to be a copy and paste reply. There are four things that define your character: 1. Archetype 2. Origin 3. Primary powerset 4. Secondary powerset When people talk about a full respec, they're either talking about the powersets or the whole enchilada. A Respec is short for respecification - altering what your character can do. This can be through reordering the levels you took powers, reassigning slots, and/or changing power pools. You'll note that none of this touches on changing the four listed items. The reason being that if any of those change, it's not the same character. A respec is not recreation or reimagining. It's tweaking your character a bit. Now, let's go through some of these "full respecs." Primary/Secondary You're sure to hear this repeated a good bit - Just because you've played one set, doesn't mean you know how to play them all. For instance, my namesake tank is a Fire/Superstrength tank. I know how he plays. The most similar powerset to him at the time of writing is Dark Armor. It's resistance based, it has no knockback protection, it has a damage aura, a self heal that does damage - it even has a self rez as its tier9. They don't play anything alike. (I can say this, because I also have a version that's DA/SS.) Fire has no Psi protection. It has no stealth. Burn has a far different effect than Oppressive Gloom, and nothing similar to Cloak of Fear. It calls for a thoroughly different style of play. With Fire, I can leave my toggles on and go to town. With Dark Armor, I have to be selective, or the times I have to herd stragglers (for instance) won't work exceptionally well. Dark Armor also does not have anything like Consume to help out with Endurance - that's in Dark Melee. With "similar" sets being that different - try Fire vs Stone. Or Invulnerability. You now have a set at or near 50 (when most people seem to mention wanting this - "I have a 50 that...") that you don't know how to slot effectively (which means you'll be doing *at least* one more respec) and don't know how to play effectively. That's just changing *one* side of the equation. Now add in, say, going from Stone Melee to Dark Melee. Different effects, with *very* different affects on your survivability. And you won't know how to slot that, either, or how well they synergize. Similarly, a Stormie plays vastly differently from an Empath, or a Dark, or a Rad. Earth Control is nothing like Illusion. Combo-chasing with Dual Blades won't help you with Martial Arts. How do I know that this ends up being a mess? Beta testing. The devs have, on rare occasion, bumped up characters to specific levels. The most notable was when Recluse's Victory came out for testing. Everyone was made level 40 - and it was a *mess.* Sure, people made copies of their own characters, and those worked out. Then there were those (many, many of those) who said "Hey, I've never had a X/Y before, I'll make one of those!" Like I said, it was a mess. You could very easily tell who had done that versus making copies of characters they knew. Now, yes, over time you'll learn your powerset - but in the meantime, you're not going to be very effective, or very happy. Archetype Now, given what I just said about powersets, imagine a *whole different AT.* Your tank is now an Empath? Really? You know how to survive as a Blaster because you played a Scrapper? And don't even get me started on epics. If *sets* are that different, Archetype is that times ten. Impact on enhancements IOs are a big part of the game right now. Think about IO'ing out your character. You get your KB protection, sets and the like, potentially spending millions (or more) on finishing up these sets, or working on merits or whatnot. Now, you change your primary - again, we'll take a tank - from a resistance based one to a defense based one. Guess what is now useless to you. You *may* have a power to stick that resist set in, somewhere, but now you're defense based - and those resist sets dont' work for you any more. That Knockback set isn't taken any more. It's even worse when you say you want to switch AT - what is a Blaster going to do with a resist set? What is a Scrapper going to do with Sting of the Manticore or Malaise's Illusions? This isn't even touching on the fact that *you could only retain ten enhancements.* That's 1 2/3 six-slotted powers. And you'd have nobody to blame for all that lost time and INF but yourself... Origin Origin holds a strange place in this list. I'm just going to touch on it briefly. Origin used to matter *vastly,* back in pre-beta. It determined how many powers you could learn and how skilled you could get with them. The system was scrapped, and for a long time it was mostly an RP item, as well as determining which enhancements you could use. It now has *some* impact in the game with some temp powers - the "helper" power you get at level 1 (throwing knives, taser, mutagen, etc.) as well as some of the vet powers. The main impact, though, would be if you'd equipped with DOs or SOs, with the lost INF. That said, you would be able to get some of it back. Origin's probably the least of the problems with a full respec. Though some would, of course, complain that they no longer get a damage bonus or what have you - and who knows what the devs may do with this in the future. Gameplay There are also two other things to consider. 1. The game is designed around alts. Seriously. If this were Guild Wars, for instance, with severely limited slots, I could see wanting to do a complete respec. But by default, you can make over 100 characters before feeling a pinch - and can purchase up to 24 additional slots per server, if you so choose. Don't like one set, make some others and try them out. 2. It's just not that hard to level. Seriously... it's not. With half debt inside missions, patrol XP, double XP weekends, XP smoothing, XP adjustments (typically up,) debt reduction everywhere... it just *isnt'* hard to level. And levelling "honestly" means you're learning your powersets, how they work with each other and others and hopefully how to use them best - which will only make you a stronger player. In closing, let me just say "No. Roll an alt." |
Well, I'm not sure I agree with all of that. I'll explain.
As far as I'm concerned, a character is defined by what the player wants from it. That is, if it's within conception for my character to transform to a different AT, then it's still the character. However, this doesn't have anything to do with balance issues.
The argument that allowing people to respec into new powersets/ATs will result in people that don't know how to play their character holds no weight with me. To begin with, there are already of people of high level who don't know how to play their character efficiently. Additionally, how I play my character is really no one else's business. In essence it's the same as saying I can't play my character as I choose to because you don't want to put up with me on your team. If my inefficiency is so disruptive, the solution is simply not to team with me. Finally, the game isn't rocket science. Most characters play essentially the same way, and variations would be quickly learned by any player with any experience.
Enhancements might or might not be an issue. Either way, it affects no one but the person respeccing. If it costs me expensive IOs to do it, that's the price I have to pay. It should be my choice, it has nothing to do with anyone else.
Origin has almost no effect on the game as it is. You can't even slot your default power. This is a non-starter to me.
Now, the game does support lots of alts. However, any given player can only play one character at a time. NCSoft (Paragon) gets the same amount of cash from me whether I have 1 character or 100. The only issue here is that a player permitted to respec his L50 BS/SR Scrapper into a L50 Nrg/Nrg Blaster really has nowhere to go. He may well tire of the character because it has nothing to do, no levels to gain. A bored player may simply leave, so making him use an alt is a mechanism to keep him around. On the other hand, if he was allowed to go from the L50 Scrapper to a L1 Blaster, then it's not really any different than making an alt. The only difference would be the contiguity of the character, the retention of the name and all the badges (many of which cannot be replaced). None of this has any impact on gameplay, so there's no reason to restrict it.
Whether or not it's hard to level is really irrelevant.
The only other thing I'll touch on is Accolades. When I suggested something similar some time ago, one argument against the idea was that a newly respecced L1 Blaster would still have his L50 Accolades. I didn't see this as an issue, as the accolades could simply be suppressed until the level they were initially achieved, much like Exemplaring.
The final argument was that it meant characters would'nt be playing the content related to the Accolades. With the coming of the AE, this is even less of an issue, as players are skipping even more content than ever.
To summarize my position, so there's no confusion:
I see nothing wrong with allowing power set and even AT "respecs" with the limitations that the respecced character would restart at L1 AND any accolades or level-related powers would be suppressed until the level they were originally attained is reached again.
Loss of enhancements would be part of the price of respeccing.
I would, however, leave the costume slots alone, as a kind of minor bonus (because it doesn't affect gamplay in any way).
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You just killed this idea faster than anything else the naysayers could ever say.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Loss of enhancements would be part of the price of respeccing. I would, however, leave the costume slots alone, as a kind of minor bonus (because it doesn't affect gamplay in any way). |
In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the devs do ever implement it this way that most folks don't use it.
So if you're slotted with purples you lose them?
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Unless you can still use them in the respecced character (you'd have to store them, since the level would be too high for the new, L1 character), yes, you'd lose them. You could sell them, as they could be put into the 10 slots for unused enhancements, but if you had 50 such enhancements, the other 40 would indeed be lost.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
You just killed this idea faster than anything else the naysayers could ever say.
In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the devs do ever implement it this way that most folks don't use it. So if you're slotted with purples you lose them? |
If that is sufficient to discourage people, then fine. Nothing says they HAVE to use the respec system. Those willing to pay that price shouldn't be denied that option, however.
I do not support this suggestion and encourage those who do to consider one small detail: In order for your suggestion to come to fruition, the Developers and Testers will have to expend a significant amount of work to not only impliment this change but to ensure that it works correctly, cannot be exploited, doesn't break a character or the game, and does not somehow corrupt the databases. All of that time can be better used working on new content, new systems, new powers, new zones, new recipes, etcetera.
If this were a suggestion that would improve the gameplay of more than a handful of players, it might be worth consideration. However, there is a system in place for rolling a new toon. Doing so does not remove badges from your original toon. If you want the same badges on the alt, re-earn them. If you want the same name on your alt, delete the old, change servers, or spring for the $10 rename token. I'm not trying to be mean, but there are easier ways to play a new character (AT/Powersets) and if you can't bring yourself to use the current systems that are in place, that's your issue.
Author of There's Something in the Water (Arc # 60327)
Not only was that genuine frontier jibberish...
Courtesy: Preventing unnecessary homicides for over 4000 years.
The "it's too much work" argument still holds not weight, as fas as I'm concerned. To begin with, we don't know how much work it would involve. You can imagine it being a lot, I can imagine it being less, and neither of us can be right or wrong, because we simply don't have that information. Either way, anything they add to the game will take some amount of work. This idea is as worthy as any other.
Even if it only affects a handful of players, it's still worth consideration. I mean, only a handful of players enjoy PvP, yet it was implemented. The key is not forcing it on anyone.
It's even got a comic-book example. Henry Pym has changed his power set and AT several times.
Ant Man - Hm... Controller?
Giant Man - Tank
Yellowjacket - Defender or Blaster...
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Comic books don't require gameplay balance. I really wish people who would try to use "It's this way in comics" type arguments would understand that. (As well as those who point out PnP RPG techniques.)|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
It's even got a comic-book example. Henry Pym has changed his power set and AT several times. .
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A comic book is written, issue by issue, volume by volume, with every character gaining or losing abilities, power, and effectiveness by what that writer needs at that moment. (And it's not just powers - how many times have various heroes "shockingly revealed their identity!" only to have everyone forget two issues later, and "shockingly reveal their identity!" a year later, then two years after that, etc?) A traditional pen and paper RPG gets tweaked throughout a campaign by the GM - if someone's too powerful, or gets the X weapon of Y and that's making the rest of the game too easy, it gets "lost" or otherwise nullified. And if it's a problem overall, it's removed by the publisher - but those rules can be ignored ("house rules," for instance) by a GM.
That doesn't occur in an MMO. There's no writer or GM changing the story (or, fortunately, the powers and abilities of our character) storyarc to storyarc, buffing or nerfing enemies minute by minute to play to our strengths or weaknesses.
TL;DR version:
While the game is in a comic book setting, it is not a comic book.
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The "I'm going to ignore everyone's points because I want a pony" argument doesn't hold weight either but you keep throwing it out. Changing the AT or Powersets of a toon requires changes to the underlying data in the database. If the game is designed following a normalization plan for the databases, that could be only a handful of places. You have to redesign the respec interface to provide the UI for the changes as well as making the changes properly to the database. You have to code in some methods to make sure nothing that's supposed to be kept isn't lost. Finally, you have to test this against a normal respec, a change from one powerset to another, changing both powersets, changing the AT, how it plays at low levels, how it plays in PvP, what happens after a database rollback, what happens if you get a system error during the change.... And something will still likely be missed that the beta testers find and report. (Or keep quiet for exploitation later.)|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
The "it's too much work" argument still holds not weight, as fas as I'm concerned. To begin with, we don't know how much work it would involve. You can imagine it being a lot, I can imagine it being less, and neither of us can be right or wrong, because we simply don't have that information.
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And before you say anything else about knowing or not knowing how the game works, let me just say that I'm a database administrator and software developer with about 18 years of experience in real world environments. I might not know their specific systems but I know how databasing, coding, and testing works. Even if what you are asking for is a trivial code change -- and I doubt it is -- it still affects a huge portion of the game and would have to be tested against it.
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Either way, anything they add to the game will take some amount of work. This idea is as worthy as any other. Even if it only affects a handful of players, it's still worth consideration. I mean, only a handful of players enjoy PvP, yet it was implemented. The key is not forcing it on anyone. |
I just don't agree with you that this adds anything to the game that doesn't already exist. If I've played Bozilla the Fire/Fire tanker to 50 and now want something new I'll roll up Boz the Fire/Fire blaster. Hell, if the name is that important to me, I'll spend $10 and rename Bozilla.
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It's even got a comic-book example. Henry Pym has changed his power set and AT several times. Ant Man - Hm... Controller? Giant Man - Tank Yellowjacket - Defender or Blaster... |
Author of There's Something in the Water (Arc # 60327)
Not only was that genuine frontier jibberish...
Courtesy: Preventing unnecessary homicides for over 4000 years.
While I don't like the idea, the point that it's too much work is a worthless counter.
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I didn't ignore your points, I just don't find them valid. Not because I don't like them, I have actual reasons.|
Originally Posted by PKDauntless
The "I'm going to ignore everyone's points because I want a pony" argument doesn't hold weight either but you keep throwing it out. Changing the AT or Powersets of a toon requires changes to the underlying data in the database.
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Changing ANYTHING will require work. The question of whether it's too much work can't be answered by you or I, that's why I feel it carries no weight. Even assuming it IS a "lot" of work, there's still the question of whether it is "worth" doing that much work.
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If the game is designed following a normalization plan for the databases, that could be only a handful of places. You have to redesign the respec interface to provide the UI for the changes as well as making the changes properly to the database. You have to code in some methods to make sure nothing that's supposed to be kept isn't lost. Finally, you have to test this against a normal respec, a change from one powerset to another, changing both powersets, changing the AT, how it plays at low levels, how it plays in PvP, what happens after a database rollback, what happens if you get a system error during the change.... And something will still likely be missed that the beta testers find and report. (Or keep quiet for exploitation later.) And before you say anything else about knowing or not knowing how the game works, let me just say that I'm a database administrator and software developer with about 18 years of experience in real world environments. I might not know their specific systems but I know how databasing, coding, and testing works. Even if what you are asking for is a trivial code change -- and I doubt it is -- it still affects a huge portion of the game and would have to be tested against it. |
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| A programming shop has limited resources. If twelve players want Luminous Blast to throw unicorns, it's worth consideration but will ultimately be shot down because the resources necessary to implement the system are needed for something that affects a larger portion of the gaming population. |
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| I just don't agree with you that this adds anything to the game that doesn't already exist. If I've played Bozilla the Fire/Fire tanker to 50 and now want something new I'll roll up Boz the Fire/Fire blaster. Hell, if the name is that important to me, I'll spend $10 and rename Bozilla. |
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| Sort of like how I have five toons with different powers and ATs that all happen to be the same librarian. How strange. How do you reckon I pulled that off? Maybe by rolling some alts... just like Henry Pym did in your example. |
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I never said "It won't work because it is hard." What I said was "I don't think it's a good use of resources because it's hard and there's already something that does this." If you don't agree that rolling an alt is the same thing as rerolling a main at level one with a new archetype and powers, that's fine. We can disagree and I'm not going to lose sleep over it.|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
While I don't like the idea, the point that it's too much work is a worthless counter.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Even assuming it IS a "lot" of work, there's still the question of whether it is "worth" doing that much work.
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| However, the issue isn't how much work it might or might not require, it's whether or not the idea is worth whatever amount of work IS involved. |
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| Adding PvP was undoubtedly a lot of work. A comparatively small proportion of the playerbase makes use of it. Even so, it was added to the game because it was deemed "worth" doing. |
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| The worthiness of the suggestion is entirely a matter of opinion. Obviously, we disagree as to the worthiness of the idea. |
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| Except they're NOT the same character. They represent the original character, but they're different characters. (philosophical debate ensues... Is a clone of you, YOU?) |
My character Battalion is not real. He is a collections of binary bytes maintained in a computer database. He was not born. He has no form beyond the game. And the only reality he has is what's afforded to him via my own imagination. Without me, Battalion doesn't exist. A clone of Battalion can be Battalion if I decide, in my imagination, that he is Battalion. He doesn't need the badges, the influence, the prestige, the same name... because my imagination is what makes him real to me. So Battalion might be called Battalion Justice when he swings a sword and Justice Majori when he's a Kheldian Peacebringer and is still Battalion when he ventures into the strange alternate reality known as Pinnacle Server. His story continues because I choose for it to.
This is why I don't see the need for a full AT/powerset respec to continue a character when I can simply roll an alt and use my imagination. You obviously disagree and you are welcome to that opinion.
Author of There's Something in the Water (Arc # 60327)
Not only was that genuine frontier jibberish...
Courtesy: Preventing unnecessary homicides for over 4000 years.
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Originally Posted by PKDauntless
I never said "It won't work because it is hard." What I said was "I don't think it's a good use of resources because it's hard and there's already something that does this." If you don't agree that rolling an alt is the same thing as rerolling a main at level one with a new archetype and powers, that's fine. We can disagree and I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
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Indeed, well said.
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| Which is the part I thought I was communicating in my original reply. I see now where I made my mistake. I don't believe the idea is worth doing because I don't believe it would anything worthwhile (new) to the game. I do not have any numbers as to the percentage of people who might or might not use this new system proposed. Anything I, you, or anyone else here could say would be anecdotal. So I cannot say, for certain, that it would be a waste of resources. I can say I think, with my limited information, in my humble opinion, that it would not be a good investment of programming/testing resources. |
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| PvP was added to a game that had no PvP. But this game already has both respecs and alts. It's a minor quibble with your example, but do continue. |
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| Thus this is where any meaningful discussion must end. I respect your opinion although I do not share it. |
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And here's the largest point of contention in the discussion from my point of view. I exist in the real world. I was born of two parents. I have a physical form, a mind and personality, I have a legal standing in my community as an adult human, and the preachers on TV tell me I have a soul. For all intents and purposes, I am real. A clone of me would be a copy. My character Battalion is not real. He is a collections of binary bytes maintained in a computer database. He was not born. He has no form beyond the game. And the only reality he has is what's afforded to him via my own imagination. Without me, Battalion doesn't exist. A clone of Battalion can be Battalion if I decide, in my imagination, that he is Battalion. He doesn't need the badges, the influence, the prestige, the same name... because my imagination is what makes him real to me. So Battalion might be called Battalion Justice when he swings a sword and Justice Majori when he's a Kheldian Peacebringer and is still Battalion when he ventures into the strange alternate reality known as Pinnacle Server. His story continues because I choose for it to. This is why I don't see the need for a full AT/powerset respec to continue a character when I can simply roll an alt and use my imagination. You obviously disagree and you are welcome to that opinion. |
It may seem semantic and irrelevant, but we each have our own way.
My respect, sir.
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I agree with your points. I find the suggestion a poor idea. |
Originally Posted by PKDauntless
I never said "It won't work because it is hard." What I said was "I don't think it's a good use of resources because it's hard and there's already something that does this." If you don't agree that rolling an alt is the same thing as rerolling a main at level one with a new archetype and powers, that's fine. We can disagree and I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
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Since you clarified about the work part I completely agree. I misunderstood.
I can see it (Powerset Respecs) as being possible only if it has these 4 restrictions.
1: Respec must stay within the same AT only.
(I.e. A Scrapper can never become a Defender or Blaster, but can change to another Scrapper powerset.)
2: Newly released powersets (and newly Proliferated powersets) would have a 4 Issue (a little over a year) blackout period during which they would not be available as a Powerset Respec choice.
If you can’t wait to try out the powerset before then; then you would have to roll up a lowbie alt instead.
3: Characters that use the Powerset Respec would have a 3 month blackout period before they can switch powersets again.
(3 months is more than enough time to decide whether you like or hate the powerset, and it is long enough to prevent any abuse of the system.)
4: A hefty fee for the Powerset Respec to offset the fact that currently available store purchased respecs are $9.99.
($24.99 sounds reasonable; naturally all sales are final.)
At the time of purchase the online store should have a popup advising the player to use the guides in the forums to assist in making power selections and slotting choices.
Could you explain the reasons for these restrictions?
I can understand some of the reasoning, let me see now...
1) I'm not sure of this one. Personally, I don't see what the harm would be in letting people switch ATs. For example, my namesake character, Ultimo, sits on the sever pretty much unplayed because he's a Blaster, and is no fun to play anymore (I really don't like the Blaster squishie playstyle). If I could make him into a Tanker, I would definitely play him again.
2) I expect this is to promote new characters, but also to promote players gathering experience with the set? As I say, if the Respec makes the player restart at L1, then there's no difference to rerolling, so again, I don't see the need for this. Was there another reason?
3) Presumably, this is to prevent repeated switching. It's not necessary for regular respecs, so I don't see it being necessary for Powerset or AT respecs either.
4) Again, this is presumably to discourage people using the respecs. I don't know that you want to penalize your players, however, by discouraging any feature of the game.
Could you elaborate further?
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| 1) I'm not sure of this one. Personally, I don't see what the harm would be in letting people switch ATs. For example, my namesake character, Ultimo, sits on the sever pretty much unplayed because he's a Blaster, and is no fun to play anymore (I really don't like the Blaster squishie playstyle). If I could make him into a Tanker, I would definitely play him again. |
Knowledge of playing one AT does not translate into playing a completely different AT.
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| 2) I expect this is to promote new characters, but also to promote players gathering experience with the set? As I say, if the Respec makes the player restart at L1, then there's no difference to rerolling, so again, I don't see the need for this. Was there another reason? |
The lockout period is to encourage players to create alts to support teaming at the low levels & to provide a period of exclusivity with the set.
If you do not want to do that, you would have to wait for the lockout period to be over (one year), then you can have your character (whatever level it may be) switch into this new powerset.
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| 3) Presumably, this is to prevent repeated switching. It's not necessary for regular respecs, so I don't see it being necessary for Powerset or AT respecs either. |
With regular respecs the strengths & weakness of your character doesnt change, with a powerset respec you are capable of changing to a powerset that can cope better against a foe that your previous powerset had problems with.
(I.e. If you are fighting something that deals a lot of toxic damage & you are currently having trouble with that, you would switch to a set that has strong resists/defense against it)
By not allowing rapid switching you prevent potential abuses of the system & it forces the player to think long term about what they are going to do with the character, instead of planning only as far as the current mission.
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| 4) Again, this is presumably to discourage people using the respecs. I don't know that you want to penalize your players, however, by discouraging any feature of the game. |
If the regular respec is $9.99, then a service that is more beneficial to you (it does above & beyond what a regular respec can do for you) should not be the same price.
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While this is true, respeccing from a L50 Blaster to a L1 Tanker souldn't be any different from making an alt (except that you would keep badges, SG affiliation and contribution, friends, etc.).|
Originally Posted by Hero_of_Steel
Knowledge of playing one AT does not translate into playing a completely different AT.
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The lockout period is to encourage players to create alts to support teaming at the low levels & to provide a period of exclusivity with the set. If you do not want to do that, you would have to wait for the lockout period to be over (one year), then you can have your character (whatever level it may be) switch into this new powerset. |
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With regular respecs the strengths & weakness of your character doesnt change, with a powerset respec you are capable of changing to a powerset that can cope better against a foe that your previous powerset had problems with. (I.e. If you are fighting something that deals a lot of toxic damage & you are currently having trouble with that, you would switch to a set that has strong resists/defense against it) By not allowing rapid switching you prevent potential abuses of the system & it forces the player to think long term about what they are going to do with the character, instead of planning only as far as the current mission. |
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| If the regular respec is $9.99, then a service that is more beneficial to you (it does above & beyond what a regular respec can do for you) should not be the same price. |
Thanks for the explanation!
Ultimo, I had missed the post where you were advocating resetting the character to lvl 1; in that case the lockout periods can be lifted & the restriction against changing to a different AT can also be lifted.
The restrictions (as I described earlier) should only be used in cases where the character would be retaining the levels they had earned.
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No sweat.|
Originally Posted by Hero_of_Steel
Ultimo, I had missed the post where you were advocating resetting the character to lvl 1; in that case the lockout periods can be lifted & the restriction against changing to a different AT can also be lifted.
The restrictions (as I described earlier) should only be used in cases where the character would be retaining the levels they had earned. |
My concern was to maintint the contiguity of the character, retention of badges and accolades (since some are irreplacable), retention of SG status, retention of the friends list, and so on.
While it would certainly be nice to be able to respec from (for example) a L50 Blaster to a L50 Tanker, I can certainly see why this would not be desirable.
I'm not sure the same reasoning can be applied to the switching of power sets, however.
Without a doubt, many sets operate somewhat differently within an AT (eg. Fire and Invulnerability operate rather differently for tankers), but the general play of any AT will be very similar. I wonder if a mechanism might not be devised to allow players to switch power sets with some retention of level?
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But just saying NO (as it has been the case multiple times on first page) is not? Suuuure man. |
Originally Posted by BlueRabbit
Or not, as "/signs" are against forum rules.
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I love how the thread has evolved so far, the pros to this suggestions outweighting the cons by FAR (because the cons are pretty much inexistant).
Really, everything that has been said AGAINST this suggestion so far has this sweet little touch of *I've rolled so many alts I dont want you to be able to keep your badges on a new set/AT".
Which is kinda sad... big deal, my main and only char will just cover up in dust again on an inactive account waiting for them to deliver a new content patch which might inspire me to reactivate it again... or not.
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As I mentioned, just saying "NO" (or the infamous "/jranger") is also against forum rules.|
Originally Posted by Masterdevil
But just saying NO (as it has been the case multiple times on first page) is not? Suuuure man.
I love how the thread has evolved so far, the pros to this suggestions outweighting the cons by FAR (because the cons are pretty much inexistant). Really, everything that has been said AGAINST this suggestion so far has this sweet little touch of *I've rolled so many alts I dont want you to be able to keep your badges on a new set/AT". Which is kinda sad... big deal, my main and only char will just cover up in dust again on an inactive account waiting for them to deliver a new content patch which might inspire me to reactivate it again... or not. |
I think your interpretation is a little uncharitable. I can easily see how a basic respec (ie. L50 to L50) could be abused. Consider, Blasters tend to perform very well early, and get "weaker" as the get to higher level (I say this because as the character levels, he's going to face more powerful/resistant foes, and more mezzes and such) while Tankers start fairly weak and become very strong later on. If they could respec AT without losing level, they could start as a Blaster, breeze through the first few levels and then become a Tanker for the late game. This would be an exploit, and would unbalance the game as a whole.
As I say, it seems to me the best way to do it would be to allow us to respec AT with a drop to L1 (essentially the same as making an alt).
Switching power sets within an AT might not need to have a total loss of level, however, since an AT performs approximately the same way regardles of power set. Certainly, when nerw power sets are made available, it might be a good idea to allow a total respec into the new set with no loss of level (for example, the original concept of the Canadian Shield had him using a shield. At the time I created the CoH character, there was no shield set, so I made him with Invulnerablility. When they made the Shield Defense set, it would have been nice to give a free respec to the new set since it wasn't available before).
Anyway, it's something I'm thinking about.
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Not that it stops people |
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
As I mentioned, just saying "NO" (or the infamous "/jranger") is also against forum rules.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
I personally just dont see alot of sense having 2x fire/fire on the same character. Yet dual speccing was implemented. Some say it's so they can have a pvp set and a pve set. fire secondary plainly sucks for pvp so why would I pick that AGAIN to make a pvp set? Didnt the same people back then yell *if you want a pvp set just respec or roll an alt"? Yet it was implemented, lol... so take it a step further and let me have a different dual spec even if limitations apply (like having to restart that one from lvl 1)
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I prefer to show my appreciation with a "I like this suggestion" or my utter disbelief in what my ocular organs are witnessing and the repulsiveness it is engendering in me with a "What the deuce?! Heck no!"