The consequences of crossing over...
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2009-07-17 16:44 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Okay
The inherents? Why the inherents? Why would they be more important than other things about an AT like, oh... their primary and secondary powersets?
I team with the Repeat Offenders.
I don't think that there's anything to be worried about.
There's been discussions that brutes will wipe tanks out of the game, but I don't see it happening.
Folks like what they like. There's more ATs that I can't play than those that I do and it has nothing to do with which side they're on.
Be well, people of CoH.
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There's been discussions that brutes will wipe tanks out of the game, but I don't see it happening.
[/ QUOTE ]Pretty much. The people who say such things are the kind of people who wouldn't ever play tanks anyway. I know I vastly prefer tanks to brutes the more I play my brutes.
About the only place I could see it happening is Corruptor/Defender but until Corruptors have all the same power sets proliferated to them that defenders have I don't see it happening completely.
There will still be a few "evil empaths" (sheesh what an oxymoron that will be) roaming the isles.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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About the only place I could see it happening is Corruptor/Defender but until Corruptors have all the same power sets proliferated to them that defenders have I don't see it happening completely.
There will still be a few "evil empaths" (sheesh what an oxymoron that will be) roaming the isles.
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Who would NOT trade vigilance for scourge?
I don't think tanks have to worry, and scrappers would have to look up from their current target to see brutes taking their spots. Of course, with the new difficulty system, both might just chose to go wipe out 8-man maps by themselves just for giggles anyway.
119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.
We've had co-op zones where all the ATs, villain and heroside, seem to all work together fine. In this game you do not need a specific team, if you do you're either doing something incredibly hard or you're an idiot.
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We've had co-op zones where all the ATs, villain and heroside, seem to all work together fine.
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The problem with this is that it's not a complete environment in which there is full mixing at all times. With GoRo, I predict there to be a bit more comparative realization of the capabilities of the various ATs and commensurate modifications to the player base to account for these new realizations.
Personally, I dearly hope that Castle does actually review the various ATs, not only from a numerical perspective, but also from a playability/perceptive effectiveness perspective. If the general view is that a Brute is more survivable, more damaging, and more encourages a more interesting play style with its inherent than a Scrapper or a Tanker while fulfilling most of the team functionality for both of those ATs, then I think that Brute would need some kind of examination in order to bring them in line with the other 2 ATs. This isn't really needed at the moment because Brutes only interact with Scrappers and Tankers in the 2 co-op zones which are both in the nominal "end-game". The same comparison could easily be made for Corrupters against Defenders, or Dominators against Blasters (Blasters only have slightly better damage while Dominators have an entire powerset that is much better at team support).
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Who would NOT trade vigilance for scourge?
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I couldn't imagine trying to run my staminaless rad/psy unfender without Negligence.
as little detail you put into your post, you do have a point.
Specifically in regards to Defenders and their inherent, but let's go down the entire list of ATs first.
Blaster - Defiance - fine as is, pretty balanced with both Fury and Scourge in function and playstyle
Tanker - Gauntlet - utter crap compared to any CoV inherent. Really needs some kind of bonus associated with taking damage kind of like a one-way Fury, just like Defiance is the other version of a one-way Fury.
Defender - Vigilance - utter crap compared to every AT inherent. The problem is this isn't an easy one to fix since the support sets are all completely erratic in numerical values and they all need to be balanced out some to even start talking about a redesigned inherent for the entire AT.
Scrappers - Criticals - boring and unengaging inherent but it being passive is a huge plus and it does it's job. It's not perfect but it works, which is more than you can say about most hero ATs
Controllers - Containment - Containment is great when it is active, however the damage gap from when it is active and not active is a bit too extreme. Such an extreme makes the inherent less of a perk like Defiance, Domination, and Fury are and more essential for the AT to even function right. Narrowing the gap between active and unactive containment would make this inherent a lot smoother.
Kheldian - CB/DS - only issue here is the values could stand to be adjusted slightly and/or a defense bonus be add/replace the damage resistance buff. Defense would work as a halfway status protection since it's avoidance and would even out the buff source disparity on the status protection.
Brute - Fury - Fine as is.
Stalker - Assassination - not so much the inherent but more of the base survivability of the AT here. It's a pretty sick joke to give them blaster base hp and hp cap and then give them regeneration as secondary.
Mastermind - there is none basically they are completely unique already.
Corruptor - Scourge - fine as is.
Dominators - Domination - I would say fine as is, but it's a slippery slope both ways downhill on this one. In some ways domination is overpowering and in other ways it isn't.
SoA - no real inherent here, but fine as is because the branching system allows for a lot of specific focus on specializing your character in different ways.
Biggest hurts for Defenders and Tankers is that their damage sucks and their inherent does nothing to smoothly make it better by them doing their AT's role. Tankers naturally should be taking damage and should receive a damage bonus from attempted attacks at them but not for the tanker's attacks.
Defenders however are a mess because of how random performance is going between support sets. Only thing I can think of is critical debuffs on blast secondaries since the blasts are really the only thing two defenders are going to have the most in common.
You write as if Tankers are somehow in need of buffing for buffing's sake. I stopped reading at that point.
I was waiting for a lulz-worthy post like this.
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You write as if Tankers are somehow in need of buffing for buffing's sake. I stopped reading at that point.
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compared to brutes, they do in the damage vs damage mitigation area. tankers could use some damage buff via inherent to help balance it out but still keep the two ATs different.
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You write as if Tankers are somehow in need of buffing for buffing's sake. I stopped reading at that point.
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I agree. My tanker is the only 50 I have that can survive indefinitely with only SO slotting against an infinite (agro cap 17, but simulated this by going in MA solo with one of those broken missions where 3-zillion guys ambush spawn in the last room) number of purple enemies, AND kill them off pretty quickly.
Say what you want about scrappers being the ultimate soloers, but my scrappers simply can't (maybe I'm just building them wrong) take on spawns like the ones my tanks can.
In what alternate world does this need to be buffed? Tankers are so survivable and have access to AOE damage, so you need to be very, very careful about buffing the amount of damage they can do.
Pretty much any tank is thrilled, for example, that the new I16 rules will allow them to solo a spawn for 8.
If it is really found that everyone is playing brutes and no one is playing tanks, the solution is to nerf brutes not buff tanks. Maybe reduce brute hp cap or their dam resist cap, or something to make them (even buffed) a little less survivable than tanks.
Tanks main role is the ability to take/resist/defend against damage, and they should remain supreme in that role. Their forte is *not* doing a lot of damage though, and they could be so easily be completely beyond overpowered by buffing their damage.
(and I'd nerf controllers too by reducing their buff/debuff factor to .5 and making containment respect normal damage buffs. With this done, I think the defender, corruptor, controller percentages might even out a little more.)
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
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You write as if Tankers are somehow in need of buffing for buffing's sake. I stopped reading at that point.
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compared to brutes,
[/ QUOTE ]They're not brutes. They're tankers.
I used to think that Brutes were going to wipe Tanks from the game. Mostly because once I can make a blueside Brute, I'd never play Tanks again. I don't really like playing them and don't ordinarily find them to be better than Brutes at taking the hits for the team when I'm grouping with 'em.
But I talked about this with a few of my friends, and have recently decided that it's all just a matter of taste. Some people like Tanks over Brutes. I don't get it, but hey, they probably feel the same way about me. A friend of mine is convinced that Corruptors will completely replace Defenders, and I don't agree at all. I totally prefer Defenders to Corruptors. Another friend thinks Controllers will be gone once Doms are available to both sides... you get the picture. What it boils down to is that we'll see basically what we see now. A little of everything. People will play what they want to play, and enthusiasts exist all over the AT spectrum. Sure, you could argue that X is better than Y, and you might even be right... but much of the player base doesn't make their decisions based on what's optimal. And those that do will continue to roll up Fire/Kins. 
This game isn't that hard. You can make basically anything work. That's one of the reasons I like it so much, really. They might address AT balance when GR actually comes out, but they might not. I could totally see them deciding that it's just too much work and not worth addressing unless there turns out to be a problem, and I doubt there'd be a problem.
The Ballad of Iron Percy
Every archtype has their own thing going for it that I think preserves its usefulness on its own.
Blasters/Corruptors/Controllers/Dominators/Defenders
Blasters are all offensive
Corruptors are offensive with some support
Controllers are mezzing with a support role
Dominators are mezzing with a more offensive role
Defenders are light on damage but great at support.
Each of those lends itself to a certain play style. Some people are all about damage. Some people are all about control. Some people are all about support. Then there are ways to blend those pretty well too.
Brutes/Scrappers/Tanks/Stalkers
Tanks hold aggro and can take a hit better than any other AT.
Brutes are great for damage if they have large group of mobs cause of fury and can hold some aggro and take a hit, but not as well as tankers.
Scrappers are great for damage more consistantly with smaller groups because their high damage isn't dependent on there being large numbers of mobs for higher damage, but they can't take as much damage.
Stalkers are great for burst damage but are harder to keep alive and have their own playstyle thats pretty unique with their hide abilities.
Masterminds have summoning and support which just sets it apart completely, but can be more complex to play...or more laid back...depending.
I'd say the biggest danger is Scrappers vs Brutes. But I think there is still a place for both roles if we can switch sides based on someone's playstyle. Not saying its not possible for some to become rare, but I don't think there is much danger of it. I guess we'll see once side switching starts happening. If it does start happening, I'm sure the devs will start balancing the ATs more but that would be difficult to predict beforehand which ones will shine and which ones will wither.
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Who would NOT trade vigilance for scourge?
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Players building more for a team support role than a offensive role...like many people who play defenders.
Seriously though playing a tanker really is more like playing a mastermind. Doing things here and there to help your team(pets) alive and killing the target. For those tankerminds, keeping aggro on yourself because you can take more damage than your pets(team).
Brutes play more like pissed off crazy "hulk" type. "Me mad, me hit harder, you hit me, me hit harder."
Scrappers play more like precise fighters. "Did I cut your leg, oh my mistake is that your aorta bleeding out?"
Regardless of where ATs land after GR, none are the same at its core. If that were the intention, we'd only have one AT.
QR
Tbh, I really don't think it will affect much. If I want a Kin for a STF, I will pick whatever one I can find, whether its a Corruptor, Controller, or Defender. If I want some melee dps I will pick up a Brute or Scrapper. If I want something to hold aggro I will either pick up a Tank or a sturdy Brute, etc.
I just don't see myself or most of the people I play with excluding certain ATs from teams (unless it has to do with the team level).
Biggest problem I could see for crossing over would be dealing with John Edwards. That guy is a d-bag.
>.>
<.<
*runs*
The Mastermind Project
Leveling every primary/secondary to 50!
50: Bot/FF, Bot/Dark, Ninja/Trap, Merc/Pain, Necro/Dark, Thug/Dark
Works in Progress: Thug/TA, Merc/Poison, Thug/Pain, Ninja/Pain, Thug/Storm
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Stalker - Assassination - not so much the inherent but more of the base survivability of the AT here. It's a pretty sick joke to give them blaster base hp and hp cap and then give them regeneration as secondary.
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Why even comment if you're not going to talk about the inherent?
The reason Stalkers have less HP is to balance the fact they have passive stealth, less aggro grabbing abilities and higher critical hit potential. Seriously, they have 2x the crit chance of scrapper with the potential to ramp it up to over 6x the crit chance on teams plus 1-2 controlled crits as well. 50% crit chance on AoEs already cements the fact that Stalkers trade HP for crits. It's a fine trade IMO.
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The reason Stalkers have less HP is to balance the fact they have passive stealth, less aggro grabbing abilities and higher critical hit potential. Seriously, they have 2x the crit chance of scrapper with the potential to ramp it up to over 6x the crit chance on teams plus 1-2 controlled crits as well. 50% crit chance on AoEs already cements the fact that Stalkers trade HP for crits. It's a fine trade IMO.
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Honestly, both of those situations are assuming worst case for Scrappers. In best average case, Scrappers are going to be managing 10% crit rate, if only because minions die so fast and a number of the more commonly used Scrapper attacks have superior crit rates. This is actually tied with the absolute worst Stalker case, though, keep in mind that Stalkers have a lower damage modifier than Scrappers. Assuming best cases for both, Stalkers have nearly three times the crit rate as Scrappers (10% compared with 31%) with the ability to guarantee a few of their crits as well (though the actual DPS loss thanks to having to resume stealth or activate Placate often makes this an even trade) which, incorporating base damage scalars, actually makes Stalkers substantially better at dealing damage simply because they've got a better functional multiplier. Of course, if you look at the hit point disparity, it's actually rather well balanced considering.
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The reason Stalkers have less HP is to balance the fact they have passive stealth, less aggro grabbing abilities and higher critical hit potential. Seriously, they have 2x the crit chance of scrapper with the potential to ramp it up to over 6x the crit chance on teams plus 1-2 controlled crits as well. 50% crit chance on AoEs already cements the fact that Stalkers trade HP for crits. It's a fine trade IMO.
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Honestly, both of those situations are assuming worst case for Scrappers. In best average case, Scrappers are going to be managing 10% crit rate, if only because minions die so fast and a number of the more commonly used Scrapper attacks have superior crit rates. This is actually tied with the absolute worst Stalker case, though, keep in mind that Stalkers have a lower damage modifier than Scrappers. Assuming best cases for both, Stalkers have nearly three times the crit rate as Scrappers (10% compared with 31%) with the ability to guarantee a few of their crits as well (though the actual DPS loss thanks to having to resume stealth or activate Placate often makes this an even trade) which, incorporating base damage scalars, actually makes Stalkers substantially better at dealing damage simply because they've got a better functional multiplier. Of course, if you look at the hit point disparity, it's actually rather well balanced considering.
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So you're pretty much just agreeing with what I said?
Also, point against Scrappers: I find they overkill-crit about as often as they don't so it's like half those crits aren't even on the radar. Stalkers on the other hand, often frontload a controlled crit to balance out those occasional overkill-crits. I won't even bring up the double assassin strike... 
So if going rogue truly means we can switch from blue to red and red to blue are we going to see a decline in certain archetypes? Devs need to look at the inherents imo to keep this from happening.