RttC always gets drop when you get mezzed, it works that way in PvP too. To test it, shut off IW and fight a group of enemies that have crowd control. (Death Mages in PI work just fine for this.) Every time you get hit, RttC will drop, while your other toggles will. This is because it's labeled as an 'offensive toggle,' just like Radiation Infection or Enervating Field is.
What you're seeing isn't RttC (which hasn't changed), but that the mechanics in PvP are completely different than they are in PvE. In PvP there is no such thing as status protection (prevents mezzes completely); instead everything offers status resistance (reduces the duration of mezzes). Since the mezzes still land on you, even if only for a fraction of a second, it will drop any offensive toggle, which RttC is.
Again, RttC was not nerfed, mechanics in PvP zones are just different than PvE. (For the record, I think RttC's "offensive" label is extreme. A 3.5% tohit debuff for ~1s isn't even in the same league as things like Radiation Infection and Enervating Field. I don't mind it dropping in PvE, but in PvP? Different story. Oh, and it's likely it's either offensive toggle or not, probably can't be flagged differently for PvE and PvP.)
Okay, then RttC needs to be fixed so it is not Off all the time. The other powers in Willpower almost never get detoggled. Neither does Integration in Regen. Right now RttC is either Bugged or purposely nerfed.
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
It is neither.
WP's other toggles will never be detoggled except when you run out of endurance or shut them off. That is because none of these toggles are offensive. Likewise, nothing in Invuln will be detoggled by a mez. The examples you cite (Integration) also it not an offensive toggle, and will never be shut off. (Keep in mind that everything except the +status resistance (or protection in PvE) aspect of toggles will suppress when you get mezzed.)
Now compare RttC to Blazing Aura, Mud Pots, Icicles, Chilling Embrace, or Against All Odds (haven't tested this myself, but it should be offensive). All of those will will detoggle because they negatively effect the enemy. This isn't AT specific, either. Steamy Mist won't detoggle, but Choking Cloud will.
You may argue that RttC's 'offensive' flag may be suspect, but it's not a nerf (all offensive toggles are flagged this way) or bugged (again, it's specifically flagged as an offensive toggle). I agree that a 3.5% tohit debuff is hardly a consideration for being detoggled (against players who don't want to sit still for the tohit debuff to linger anyways), but I can't say their method is biased against RttC or WP specifically.
I know that, but RttC's main purpose is Defensive so let's say it is a special case power and bend the rules to take into account RttC's main function which is the main tanking power of Willpower. It doesn't damage Mobs, just mildly debuffs To-Hit, similar to Invincibility, but in reverse and no where near as good as the Defense that Invincibility can generate.
The new rules may not have been targetted to Nerf Willpower and RttC, but that is what the new rules have done. The powerset is just about useless without the main regens from Willpower. And hey, a Nerf is a Nerf is a Nerf, even if it comes in the guise of a politically correct Nerf.
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
If you want to say the pros don't outweigh the cons (in PvP), that I'd grant you. Your last [edit: post] seemed to be (and I may have been reading too much into it) saying the devs either nerfed it or that it wasn't working as intended. That's all I was trying to clear up.
In PvE, I think the tohit debuff outweighs the detoggle aspect as Tankers almost never get mezzed. Also, as you powergame WP, the tohit debuff becomes more and more influential. It's not as true in PvP due to diminishing returns.
If the devs can only have one flag for RttC (offensive or not) and not be PvP or PvE specific, I'd prefer they keep it as is. In PvE the tohit debuff can make an impact, adds additional threat, and opens another avenue for IO slotting (though few would ever utilize it). PvE more often used, too. (I'm biased too, since I rarely PvP and have a tweaked build.)
I disagree only because RttC is the main tanking power in Willpower. Sometimes the devs make mistakes.
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
By the way, RttC was being detoggled by Charged Brawl and Tesla Cage, Haymaker, Dark Blast (I think) all from Lieutenants and none mezzed my Tank at all.
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
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I know that, but RttC's main purpose is Defensive so let's say it is a special case power and bend the rules to take into account RttC's main function which is the main tanking power of Willpower. It doesn't damage Mobs, just mildly debuffs To-Hit, similar to Invincibility, but in reverse and no where near as good as the Defense that Invincibility can generate.
The new rules may not have been targetted to Nerf Willpower and RttC, but that is what the new rules have done. The powerset is just about useless without the main regens from Willpower. And hey, a Nerf is a Nerf is a Nerf, even if it comes in the guise of a politically correct Nerf.
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No it's not a special case. IT AFFECTS THE ENEMY. Like Chilling Embrace, AAO, and other non-damaging auras like Op. Gloom and Cloak of Fear. So in PvP it is detoggled by mez like any aura that affects enemies.
AAO is also a key power in Shields, as well as Chilling Embrace in Ice, what in the hell makes you think Willpower deserves special treatment?
EDIT: removed invincibility since Wavicle told me it does not detoggle.
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I know that, but RttC's main purpose is Defensive so let's say it is a special case power and bend the rules to take into account RttC's main function which is the main tanking power of Willpower. It doesn't damage Mobs, just mildly debuffs To-Hit, similar to Invincibility, but in reverse and no where near as good as the Defense that Invincibility can generate.
The new rules may not have been targetted to Nerf Willpower and RttC, but that is what the new rules have done. The powerset is just about useless without the main regens from Willpower. And hey, a Nerf is a Nerf is a Nerf, even if it comes in the guise of a politically correct Nerf.
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No it's not a special case. IT AFFECTS THE ENEMY. Like Chilling Embrace, Invincibility, AAO, and other non-damaging auras. So in PvP it is detoggled by mez like any aura that affects enemies.
Invincibility is also a key power in Invulnerability, as AAO in Shields, what in the hell makes you think Willpower deserves special treatment?
[/ QUOTE ]Because it affects his character.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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By the way, RttC was being detoggled by Charged Brawl and Tesla Cage, Haymaker, Dark Blast (I think) all from Lieutenants and none mezzed my Tank at all.
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Not Dark Blast, but Tesla Cage, Charged Brawl, and Haymaker all have short duration mezzes attached to them. Short enough that you might not even notice except for the toggle dropping.
For the record, I agree RttC should be relabelled as defensive, despite the almost entirely irrelevant tohit debuff. If necessary change it to a tiny Defense buff instead.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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I know that, but RttC's main purpose is Defensive so let's say it is a special case power and bend the rules to take into account RttC's main function which is the main tanking power of Willpower. It doesn't damage Mobs, just mildly debuffs To-Hit, similar to Invincibility, but in reverse and no where near as good as the Defense that Invincibility can generate.
The new rules may not have been targetted to Nerf Willpower and RttC, but that is what the new rules have done. The powerset is just about useless without the main regens from Willpower. And hey, a Nerf is a Nerf is a Nerf, even if it comes in the guise of a politically correct Nerf.
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No it's not a special case. IT AFFECTS THE ENEMY. Like Chilling Embrace, Invincibility, AAO, and other non-damaging auras. So in PvP it is detoggled by mez like any aura that affects enemies.
Invincibility is also a key power in Invulnerability, as AAO in Shields, what in the hell makes you think Willpower deserves special treatment?
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Invincibility does not effect mobs in any way and as such does not detoggle when you're mezzed. Just to clarify.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Okay, then RttC needs to be fixed so it is not Off all the time. The other powers in Willpower almost never get detoggled. Neither does Integration in Regen. Right now RttC is either Bugged or purposely nerfed.
[/ QUOTE ]Uh, no, it's working exactly the way it's supposed to, as per the rules of how such powers should react and interact.
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I know that, but RttC's main purpose is Defensive so let's say it is a special case power and bend the rules to take into account RttC's main function which is the main tanking power of Willpower. It doesn't damage Mobs, just mildly debuffs To-Hit, similar to Invincibility, but in reverse and no where near as good as the Defense that Invincibility can generate.
The new rules may not have been targetted to Nerf Willpower and RttC, but that is what the new rules have done. The powerset is just about useless without the main regens from Willpower. And hey, a Nerf is a Nerf is a Nerf, even if it comes in the guise of a politically correct Nerf.
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No it's not a special case. IT AFFECTS THE ENEMY. Like Chilling Embrace, Invincibility, AAO, and other non-damaging auras. So in PvP it is detoggled by mez like any aura that affects enemies.
Invincibility is also a key power in Invulnerability, as AAO in Shields, what in the hell makes you think Willpower deserves special treatment?
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Invincibility does not effect mobs in any way and as such does not detoggle when you're mezzed. Just to clarify.
[/ QUOTE ]Which is surprising that Taunt effects are not considered "enemy affecting".
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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I know that, but RttC's main purpose is Defensive so let's say it is a special case power and bend the rules to take into account RttC's main function which is the main tanking power of Willpower. It doesn't damage Mobs, just mildly debuffs To-Hit, similar to Invincibility, but in reverse and no where near as good as the Defense that Invincibility can generate.
The new rules may not have been targetted to Nerf Willpower and RttC, but that is what the new rules have done. The powerset is just about useless without the main regens from Willpower. And hey, a Nerf is a Nerf is a Nerf, even if it comes in the guise of a politically correct Nerf.
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No it's not a special case. IT AFFECTS THE ENEMY. Like Chilling Embrace, Invincibility, AAO, and other non-damaging auras. So in PvP it is detoggled by mez like any aura that affects enemies.
Invincibility is also a key power in Invulnerability, as AAO in Shields, what in the hell makes you think Willpower deserves special treatment?
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Invincibility does not effect mobs in any way and as such does not detoggle when you're mezzed. Just to clarify.
[/ QUOTE ]Which is surprising that Taunt effects are not considered "enemy affecting".
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Actually, right after I posted that I realized that I never actually tested that with my Invuln character and so I can't be 100% sure, but that was my understanding was that Taunt is the one exception to the rule and that Invinc does not detoggle. I'll go check in a bit.
EDIT: Confirmed. Invincibility does not detoggle when mezzed. All the effects suppress of course, presumably Including the Taunt.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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And hey, a Nerf is a Nerf is a Nerf, even if it comes in the guise of a politically correct Nerf.
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Do you even know what a nerf is? The devs have to change a power to nerf it. Rttc always detoggled when a player got mezed. It wasn't buffed like other toggles that no longer drop when mezed.
Dirges
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And hey, a Nerf is a Nerf is a Nerf, even if it comes in the guise of a politically correct Nerf.
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Do you even know what a nerf is? The devs have to change a power to nerf it. Rttc always detoggled when a player got mezed. It wasn't buffed like other toggles that no longer drop when mezed.
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Now now, if this one player says it's a nerf, it's a nerf! Never mind what all the other players, the devs, and two decades of common usage have established as its meaning. All that's out the window. This guy gets to control us all.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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I know that, but RttC's main purpose is Defensive so let's say it is a special case power and bend the rules to take into account RttC's main function which is the main tanking power of Willpower. It doesn't damage Mobs, just mildly debuffs To-Hit, similar to Invincibility, but in reverse and no where near as good as the Defense that Invincibility can generate.
The new rules may not have been targetted to Nerf Willpower and RttC, but that is what the new rules have done. The powerset is just about useless without the main regens from Willpower. And hey, a Nerf is a Nerf is a Nerf, even if it comes in the guise of a politically correct Nerf.
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No it's not a special case. IT AFFECTS THE ENEMY. Like Chilling Embrace, AAO, and other non-damaging auras like Op. Gloom and Cloak of Fear. So in PvP it is detoggled by mez like any aura that affects enemies.
AAO is also a key power in Shields, as well as Chilling Embrace in Ice, what in the hell makes you think Willpower deserves special treatment?
EDIT: removed invincibility since Wavicle told me it does not detoggle.
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AAO is a primarilly offensive power, RttC is a Defensive one.
RttC is without a doubt the most powerful defensive tool a WP tank has for survival. Dropping it is essentially the equivalent of an Invulnerable Tanker suddenly losing all S/L Resistance.
A tanker that loses AAO in a fight probably won't die from it.
One that loses EttC probably will.
IMO either change the mechanic so that WP Tankers will be viable in PVP zones and missions or else Drop the inane -tohit effect and give RttC the same basic +taunt mechanic invincibility has.
You find people stand next to you powering your RttC a lot in PvP?
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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You find people stand next to you powering your RttC a lot in PvP?
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Some people do actually run the missions in PVP zones and attack the NPCs there (as the OP was trying to do).
Having RttC detoggle while fighting NPCs in a PvP zone makes that specific tank set essentially worthless there.
Wait, you fight the mobs OUTSIDE in the pvp zones?
Well...I think that's a little crazy...
But...
Like I said before, I agree that RttC should be considered defensive for the purposes of toggle dropping.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
If you're going for Shivans in Bloody Bay, for example, I can see this would be a real problem.
That involves fighting AI mobs outside, so its hardly a crazy idea.
I agree with Quixotik that something's wrong here - a power that's 90% defensive and 10% offensive, AND one of the main survival tools for a set should maybe be excepted from this rule and shouldn't detoggle.
Especially when you consider that the "offensive" part of the power is a To Hit debuff, which is really defensive itself, ie its keeping you marginally safer rather than upping your damage in any way.
It may not be technically bugged or nerfed, but I wouldn't be surprised if its been overlooked.
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If you're going for Shivans in Bloody Bay, for example, I can see this would be a real problem.
That involves fighting AI mobs outside, so its hardly a crazy idea.
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When I do Shivan runs, the only things I fight are the turrets, and I don't remember them ever holding me. (If you run to the meteorites fast enough, you can get the shard and be running away before the Shivans spawn / attack you. Just did it recently on a Corruptor with no issue. This is how I've always done it, too.)
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Especially when you consider that the "offensive" part of the power is a To Hit debuff, which is really defensive itself, ie its keeping you marginally safer rather than upping your damage in any way.
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If you follow that logic, Darkest Night is fully defensive and shouldn't detoggle. Ditto for Chilling Embrace and Ice Storm. The difference is that it is possible* for those debuffs to increase the survivability of others if the target is attacking someone else.
* I realize this applies to the other toggles more than RttC (it taunts mobs to attack you, and players likely won't stand in it to stay debuffed), but they all fall into the 'debuff to increase survivability' category.
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I agree with Quixotik that something's wrong here - a power that's 90% defensive and 10% offensive, AND one of the main survival tools for a set should maybe be excepted from this rule and shouldn't detoggle.
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If you're in a PvP zone fighting against mobs, then yes, it is a hindrance. If you're in PvP fighting a player, not so much since they kite. In PvE, it almost never happens, so it's no issue whatsoever.
Honestly, I consider it a minor inconvenience because fighting NPCs inside a PvP zone is a pretty rare activity. If the options were to keep it as is or remove the tohit debuff and make it not detoggle, I'd keep it as is. (Again, the debuff is extra threat in PvE which WP needs and increased survivability - esp if you build for defense.)
[edit: The thing about special cases is it opens Pandora's Box; once it's open, there's no going back. Anyone who'd support the detoggle removal should think about that hard.]
I think it would make more sense to simply remove the tohit debuff in pvp zones and allow RTTC to stay toggled on, regen or no, when mezzed.
This is a stupid Nerf. I went to Bloody Bay today to level up on some Bosses and my Tanker is mezzed by every stun and hold and RttC is down more than running! Literally as soon as I activate RttC, it's knocked off again.
Why not just remove RttC from Willpower if it bothers the Devs so much? Shouldn't the Tank do more damage if RttC is never working now?
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator