Looking for end game advice on Fire/Cold for PvE
By
Chrome_Family,
Posted on: 2009-07-11 15:26 in Corruptors
Benumb is very good for AV's, but on a build with no IO's it is pretty meh, very long rech, short duration. Still worth it, but... ya.
Frostworks is an ok buff depending on who you play with. Put in on a fire, elec, sr, or dark brute and they'll really like it. I put it in my cold builds early and then spec out of it, and then put it back in in the late 40's.
I think it is a very good buff when you first get it. No one has much in the way of +hp (accolades, IO's) and powers like dullpain are no where near perma. It loses its luster in the late 30's and 40's where everyone's' builds start to fill out.
I find it gains value again as a lvl 49 pick because it works so well with minimal slots (1 heal, 1rech). Very few squishies have more than 1,200 hp (cap at 1606) and fewer brutes still are running around at perma hp cap.
(brute with accolades+dullpain = approx 2400hp. They cap at 3200.
1 heal in FW makes it just shy of +600hp. 1 rech lets you have it almost perma on 3 people.
A few extra hundred hp in conjunction with the def shields and your active mitigation can pretty much eliminate the need for any other support.
Some people will say to pick up aidother instead of FW, that is fine if you don't mind wasting over 4 seconds during a fight and being locked into a powerpool. FW is a proactive buff that layers with your other buff/debuff resulting in very impressive mitigation. As a fire/cold I'm sure you can think of about seven hundred better things to do during a fight than cast aidother 
So ya, I'd take both, but you should also think about getting some IO's. The build is good with just SO's, but with set recipes fire/cold is astounding.
*points to guide in my sig*
to summarize everything but Frostworks is awesome. Frostworks is rarely ever good and less useful than Aid Other in most situations.
Definitely take benumb. Even if you aren't facing an AV, it makes whatever you hit it with useless. Great against bosses/EBs as well.
Frostwork is skippable, but on a corruptor it can be really great since you will be teaming with brutes a lot (who benefit quite a bit from it).
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Definitely take benumb. Even if you aren't facing an AV, it makes whatever you hit it with useless. Great against bosses/EBs as well.
Frostwork is skippable, but on a corruptor it can be really great since you will be teaming with brutes a lot (who benefit quite a bit from it).
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Depends on the brute and honestly brutes are the only AT that gets worthwhile benefit out of it over Aid Other. That's assuming they have zero hp buffs of their own.
Frosticus: It seems like these other posts don't agree with your options of Frostwork. I would like to get a better idea, but mostly I am interested in what IO sets you would recommend, or what I types of bonuses I should try to achieve.
Also, is combat jumping with an IO for knockback protection sufficient, or will it be worth it to add some hold protection via acrobatics? I seem to be stunned much more then held, so I don't know.
Thanks!
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Frosticus: It seems like these other posts don't agree with your options of Frostwork. I would like to get a better idea, but mostly I am interested in what IO sets you would recommend, or what I types of bonuses I should try to achieve.
Also, is combat jumping with an IO for knockback protection sufficient, or will it be worth it to add some hold protection via acrobatics? I seem to be stunned much more then held, so I don't know.
Thanks!
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I always just slap a single Stdfast Prot or Karma: KB prot into Arctic Fog, plenty of protection for a corruptor.
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Frosticus: It seems like these other posts don't agree with your options of Frostwork.
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Try it and see if you like it. The principle of layered defense isn't just powerful it is very powerful.
Look at it this way. If your corr friend has 1,200 hp (respectable end game build (that's ~+15% hp). If you put your shields and arc fog (21.4% def) on him he can now take:
1713 pts of incoming damage before dying
Put 1 slotted FW and he can now take:
2292 pts of incoming damage before dying
We only buffed him by ~400hp, but he is effectively 580hp stronger. That's 1.34x more survivable (and that ignores any natural regen, which makes the number even bigger).
Shield brutes are fotm right now lets look at what a single slotted FW does for them:
Avg shield build for brutes has approx
28% def (positional)
16% res to all (but psy)
125% max hp (true grit+a few IO bonuses, no accolades until very late game)
He could take 3298 pts of damage (ignoring regen) before dying.
Obviously our def shields are going to make the largest difference. We'll even assume we stand near them for arc fog, but really that isn't how a fire/cold plays best, but w/e.
w/ shield+arc fog he could take: 4023 pts of damage
w/ shield+arc fog + 1slot FW: 5464 pts of damage or approx 1.34x stronger.
Just for clarity the def shields are base 11.3% def, slotted they are 17.6%. That makes a toon 1.35x stronger than base. Funny how that worked hey?
I don't know about you, but I don't want to cast aid other 3 times during a fight (12.3 seconds) when I could just hit him with a 1.32 second buff before the fight starts.
Now imagine if you put it on TWO brutes... when you gonna find time to fire off rain of fire, sleet, fireball, blaze etc if you are spending so much of the fight casting POS aid other?
*remember +hp boosts the effect of regen, so the difference is actually even larger than I said.
If your target is like MOST players you run into he'll have practically NO +hp in his build at which point FW is massive.
If you were to fully slot FW some brutes would be made over 1.5x as survivable from just using your shields+fog
You may like aidother better, that is your playstyle choice. Aidother is a POS though, make no mistake, it takes 4.1 seconds of IN COMBAT time to use, has virtually no range and is interuptable. On of the best things about fire/cold is that you can unleash astounding far ranged aoe damage. If you want to stand right up by the brutes, that is fine, your choice.
Comparing aidother and FW is pretty ridiculous, you don't even use them the same way. You may as well just take the aoe taunt and taunt off whoever is beating on your friend.
My fire/cold is geared toward offense. I apply my team buffs before the fight and then do some of the highest damage in the game. If I wanted to sacrifice the latter I wouldn't be playing a fire/cold
Just remember, most corruptors like to attack and most MM's suck, so you WILL be using aidother plenty if you go that route. Be sure you like it
Me I prefer to do what /cold does well outside of battle and then do what fire/cold does extremely well inside of battle. Others don't. I'd much rather watch the enemies hp bars while playing my fire/cold than my teammates. Could just be me though.
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I would like to get a better idea, but mostly I am interested in what IO sets you would recommend, or what I types of bonuses I should try to achieve.
Also, is combat jumping with an IO for knockback protection sufficient, or will it be worth it to add some hold protection via acrobatics? I seem to be stunned much more then held, so I don't know.
Thanks!
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Cold is very receptive to +recharge. That tends to be the main focus of every cold I've played. More recharge takes care of survivability (sleet+benumb+infrig up more often) and takes care of recovery (HL up more often).
After +rech, I start boosting +ranged def. Your fire/cold will get heaps of agro, once you start to surpass 20% ranged def you will go from impressive to amazing. Pass 30% and wow, pass 40% and you'll feel unstoppable.
After that I go for +hp, just like your friends, more hp dramatically increases your survivability when layered with def and heaps of -recharge debuffing.
Sets I'd use that aren't for the uber rich: thunderstrikes in ranged damage. Each full set give 3.75 ranged def. The two cheap pieces of Blessing of Zephr in travel powers for 3.13% ranged def each.
If you did two of each of those sets + base arc fog you are at 17.5% ranged def. Well worth the investment.
+recharge bonuses tend to be more expensive. The cheap ones will require possible build comprimises like taking the snipe.
As for kb protection I'd just find the cheapest one you can whether it is karma, steadfast, or blessing of zephr. One is all you really need.
I consider Frostworks one of the best buffs in the game because it is unique. I slot +HP on virtually every build I use. The results are amazing and incredibly beneficial. Every little bit helps a significant amount.
Applying this buff to other players can drastically help them, regardless of archetype.
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I consider Frostworks one of the best buffs in the game because it is unique. I slot +HP on virtually every build I use. The results are amazing and incredibly beneficial. Every little bit helps a significant amount.
Applying this buff to other players can drastically help them, regardless of archetype.
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This is accurate. Very few toons you will run into won't benefit. Some will benefit tremendously. For such a low slot requirement power and the ease of use it gives pretty solid returns.
Remember, support players aren't that common redside. You have the ability to make that a non-issue in most scenarios.
I wouldn't go around skipping others to buff my willpower stalker friend, but I've yet to see a brute that wasn't stronger to unbelievably stronger with FW on them.
I've gotten it at lvl 16 on the three cold corrs I've leveled now and it has tremendous value at that stage of the game. I usually drop it for more offense in the mid 30's, but it always finds a way back into my final build.
Good power, nice looking too.
*like anything though you can play without it and still do well usually.
Wow thanks for all the feedback guys
Now, keeping in mind that I know little about IO sets (i do have the builder to play with), what would you recommend I aim for? I know there are average cost builds and expensive builds, but to me it seems silly to spend time getting something I'd rather just replace.
I know the slots ppl use at 50 differ a lot from leveling, because you add extras to fit in a set for a bonus, so that in mind, any information would be helpful! I need to know what I need before I can start working for it.
I guess I am looking for a build with IO sets. Normally I do this sort of thing myself in games but I just don't know enough about anything to know whats best, and whats not.
In terms of powers, I was thinking everything in fire minus flares and the snipe, and then everything in cold. Plus hurdle/health/stamina, hasten/ss, Shark Skin, Hibernate, and then there is one open spot, whatever someone would recommend.
Thanks!
An important thing to remember when slotting set IOs is that the set bonuses are NOT everything. The actual %s on the enhancements make a significant difference. The term "frankenslotting" comes from mixing and matching different IO sets to maximize enhancements %s while spending as little as possible. That might be a good place to start while you slowly build towards sets or parts of sets that give set bonuses you want AND excellent enhancement %s.
So, if I do that, do I just use a lot of respecs to take those IOs out and replace/re-adjust where things are? I don't want to much spend time getting medium quality IO sets and I'd rather just aim straight for the final best build. I'm sure it is quite an undertaking but the path will seem clearer to me that way.
So whats the best build I could have? (Read my post above I just edited it before you replied)
The concept is that the Frankenslotting build is so cheap that you just throw it away. You drop the other IOs right over on top of it.
Frosticus isn't taking into account HP caps which is the primary reason Frostworks sucks. Consider that 1 Heal SO in frostworks HP caps half the ATs in the game (6 out of 12) and only for a +HP of 401.59 or 589.00 and this value can not be reapplied like a heal ever. Aid Other on the other hand, heals for 450.1 and can be reapplied every 9.06 seconds. Also Aid Other doesn't have it's effectiveness reduced by +HP buffs from IOs, Accolades, and powers on the target, which are overly common.
Also don't let anyone BS you on that +HP significantly increases regeneration. The ATs that cap out at 1 Heal SO FW only get a 36.7% base regen increase which is only 1.639 hp/sec which is less than unslotted health (40%). Brutes only get a 53.3% base regen increase out of it which is equal to 1 heal SO Health. Assuming you hit Aid Other ever time it recharges you would get a 49.68 hp/sec increase, 22.505 hp/sec if you do it every 20 seconds instead of 9 seconds. You would have to wait 190 seconds between Aid Others for it to be less hp/sec than 3 Heal SO slotted Frostworks on a brute which is 2.38 hp/sec.
It's not just bad, it's a buff that is significantly worse than general heals bad.
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Frosticus isn't taking into account HP caps which is the primary reason Frostworks sucks. Consider that 1 Heal SO in frostworks HP caps half the ATs in the game (6 out of 12) and only for a +HP of 401.59 or 589.00 and this value can not be reapplied like a heal ever. Aid Other on the other hand, heals for 450.1 and can be reapplied every 9.06 seconds. Also Aid Other doesn't have it's effectiveness reduced by +HP buffs from IOs, Accolades, and powers on the target, which are overly common.
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I am taking into account Hit Point caps when I say Frostworks is an amazing buff. Additional Hit Points let's people take more hits in a fight. Taking more hits allows you to have more of a chance to eat that green inspiration, execute that key power, finish off that enemy, or do the other amazing thing you need.
I prefer Frostworks over any heal because Frostworks is preemptive. You use it before combat starts. A heal means you have to stop what you are doing and push something else. Frostworks is already working and you can shoot the bad guys or do other things without having to push a heal button.
Frostworks is one of those subtle powers that is hard to notice how game changing it is on a player. There aren't any green nor orange #s. Nothing goes flying anywhere. It doesn't say missed nor avoided. But people just live longer.
Well I guess I may have to use Frostwork myself and see how I like it.
Still, I would very much like to see a top of the line IO build!
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Frosticus isn't taking into account HP caps which is the primary reason Frostworks sucks. Consider that 1 Heal SO in frostworks HP caps half the ATs in the game (6 out of 12) and only for a +HP of 401.59 or 589.00 and this value can not be reapplied like a heal ever. Aid Other on the other hand, heals for 450.1 and can be reapplied every 9.06 seconds. Also Aid Other doesn't have it's effectiveness reduced by +HP buffs from IOs, Accolades, and powers on the target, which are overly common.
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I am taking into account Hit Point caps when I say Frostworks is an amazing buff. Additional Hit Points let's people take more hits in a fight. Taking more hits allows you to have more of a chance to eat that green inspiration, execute that key power, finish off that enemy, or do the other amazing thing you need.
I prefer Frostworks over any heal because Frostworks is preemptive. You use it before combat starts. A heal means you have to stop what you are doing and push something else. Frostworks is already working and you can shoot the bad guys or do other things without having to push a heal button.
Frostworks is one of those subtle powers that is hard to notice how game changing it is on a player. There aren't any green nor orange #s. Nothing goes flying anywhere. It doesn't say missed nor avoided. But people just live longer.
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A reactive heal is superior to it both numerically and in function especially since the rest of Cold set is based around -Recharge and +Def.
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Frosticus isn't taking into account HP caps which is the primary reason Frostworks sucks. Consider that 1 Heal SO in frostworks HP caps half the ATs in the game (6 out of 12) and only for a +HP of 401.59 or 589.00 and this value can not be reapplied like a heal ever.
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Actually I did take hp caps into account, that is the shiny 1606 used for the corr and 3212 for the brute. That's exactly why I said it does so well with only 1 heal slot and 1 recharge. I'm not saying it is as good as this power, but speed boost requires no slots to be awesome. I personally think it is a good thing when you have some powers that don't need to be 5-6 slotted to do well. YMMV.
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Aid Other on the other hand, heals for 450.1 and can be reapplied every 9.06 seconds. Also Aid Other doesn't have it's effectiveness reduced by +HP buffs from IOs, Accolades, and powers on the target, which are overly common.
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Don't forget the 4.1 second interuptable cast time . Actually heals are reduced in effectiveness when +hp is added, but it is subjective rather than objective. A FW's /shield brute is at about 2540hp, so a 5-6 slotted aidother will only move their hp bar about 1/6th. On the other hand if you hadn't buffed him FW that same brute would gain 1/4 of their hp back. The higher the hp the less effective your weak heal feels. I know this after playing years of stormies with o2 boost. It feels effective on low hp toons, but is like a drop in the sea on high hp toons.
If a high hp toon gets to the point they require heavy healing aidother fails anyway. It is only sufficient for light healing duties.
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Also don't let anyone BS you on that +HP significantly increases regeneration. The ATs that cap out at 1 Heal SO FW only get a 36.7% base regen increase which is only 1.639 hp/sec which is less than unslotted health (40%). Brutes only get a 53.3% base regen increase out of it which is equal to 1 heal SO Health. Assuming you hit Aid Other ever time it recharges you would get a 49.68 hp/sec increase, 22.505 hp/sec if you do it every 20 seconds instead of 9 seconds. You would have to wait 190 seconds between Aid Others for it to be less hp/sec than 3 Heal SO slotted Frostworks on a brute which is 2.38 hp/sec.
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You have to fully slot aidother for it not to suck, and even then it still sucks Thx but no thanks, I have 23 other powers that I'd rather put slots into than aid other, especially on a fire/cold.
I'm surprised you continue to hang onto he notion that everyone is running around with their +hp accolades, often have +hp buffs that bring them up to hp cap and a heap of +hp IO's. Reality (well in-game reality) does not match this. At all.
- Probably less than 2% of players have the unbreakable badge, and thus no Born in Battle (5%hp)
-You need all the mayhem's (so 45+ unless you leech off of a friend) to get Invader badge (5%hp)
-You need to be 30+ (or again leech), work off 1.2 million debt, and farm the crap out of rare marcone bosses to get HPT (10%)
I can guarantee you the number of people running around with meaningful +hp from accolades and IO's is insignificant. The number of people running around with them and perma dullpain probably doesn't even register.
Anyway, the comment, had you read it, was that +hp increases regen and that when combined with the layered defense makes the large survivability boost even larger. I won't go into specifics because I have no idea how fast the person plays or what enemies they are facing to determine the rate of incoming damage.
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It's not just bad, it's a buff that is significantly worse than general heals bad.
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I've yet to say FW is better defensively than healing, but in an overall package it is definitely better than aidother. Maybe an ice/cold has the time and lack of things to do where they can afford to be hovering over their teammates. A fire/cold does not and the mass agro you should be generating means you need looking after more than anyone else. If you are being left alone to cast aidother without being interrupted numerous times you are probably not playing a fire/cold very aggressively (but that is up to the player) or well (but that is subjective)
To OP:
Anyway, you've got more than enough info to go try the power and see if you like it yourself.
Better yet I'd get a cold to cast it on you and then go play and see how much tougher it makes you feel.
The biggest difference? FW will eliminate timid players. Aidother turns you into a wannabe empathy
gl/hf.
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Frosticus isn't taking into account HP caps which is the primary reason Frostworks sucks. Consider that 1 Heal SO in frostworks HP caps half the ATs in the game (6 out of 12) and only for a +HP of 401.59 or 589.00 and this value can not be reapplied like a heal ever. Aid Other on the other hand, heals for 450.1 and can be reapplied every 9.06 seconds. Also Aid Other doesn't have it's effectiveness reduced by +HP buffs from IOs, Accolades, and powers on the target, which are overly common.
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I am taking into account Hit Point caps when I say Frostworks is an amazing buff. Additional Hit Points let's people take more hits in a fight. Taking more hits allows you to have more of a chance to eat that green inspiration, execute that key power, finish off that enemy, or do the other amazing thing you need.
I prefer Frostworks over any heal because Frostworks is preemptive. You use it before combat starts. A heal means you have to stop what you are doing and push something else. Frostworks is already working and you can shoot the bad guys or do other things without having to push a heal button.
Frostworks is one of those subtle powers that is hard to notice how game changing it is on a player. There aren't any green nor orange #s. Nothing goes flying anywhere. It doesn't say missed nor avoided. But people just live longer.
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A reactive heal is superior to it both numerically and in function especially since the rest of Cold set is based around -Recharge and +Def.
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I've tried an aidother build when I had my fire/cold spec'd for pvp with aid self. It fricken sucked for me. If I wanted to play combat nurse with debuffs I'd be on my thermal or roll a pain.
Cold is a proactive buffing set and a reactive debuffing set. Substituting in aidother is going to come at the cost of either dealing damage or debuffing.
Considering how great cold is at debuffing, I'll just say no thx.
Considering how great fire is at damage, I'll just say no thx.
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Frosticus isn't taking into account HP caps which is the primary reason Frostworks sucks. Consider that 1 Heal SO in frostworks HP caps half the ATs in the game (6 out of 12) and only for a +HP of 401.59 or 589.00 and this value can not be reapplied like a heal ever. Aid Other on the other hand, heals for 450.1 and can be reapplied every 9.06 seconds. Also Aid Other doesn't have it's effectiveness reduced by +HP buffs from IOs, Accolades, and powers on the target, which are overly common.
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I am taking into account Hit Point caps when I say Frostworks is an amazing buff. Additional Hit Points let's people take more hits in a fight. Taking more hits allows you to have more of a chance to eat that green inspiration, execute that key power, finish off that enemy, or do the other amazing thing you need.
I prefer Frostworks over any heal because Frostworks is preemptive. You use it before combat starts. A heal means you have to stop what you are doing and push something else. Frostworks is already working and you can shoot the bad guys or do other things without having to push a heal button.
Frostworks is one of those subtle powers that is hard to notice how game changing it is on a player. There aren't any green nor orange #s. Nothing goes flying anywhere. It doesn't say missed nor avoided. But people just live longer.
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A reactive heal is superior to it both numerically and in function especially since the rest of Cold set is based around -Recharge and +Def.
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No it is not. I'd rather START with 400 more Hit Points than wait for someone else to stop what they are doing, stop shooting, stop debuffing, stop whatever else and then add 400 HP after I've already taken damage.
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Well I guess I may have to use Frostwork myself and see how I like it.
Still, I would very much like to see a top of the line IO build!
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Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]
Level 50 Corruptor Fire/Cold
I've built this toon quite a few ways from pvp dueler, high recharge aoe damage dealer w/ little team support powers, AV soloer, and I finally settled on this build for a mix of extreme damage, great team buffing (I make most allies over twice as strong before adding in my active mitigation debuffs/damage), and very high personal survivability.
No idea how I would even fit medicine into the build and if I did, where I would find the 4-5 extra slots it requires.
If I had that kind of build flexibility I'd take Firebreath so I could do:
sleet>aim>rainoffire>fireball>firebrea th>blaze(boss)>fireball ---move to next spawn.
But I don't really like firebreath and it doesn't mesh with the ranged aoe damage I do as standing for that long at short range opens you up to enemy aoe's/cones which I'm not that strong against.
edit: I consider pvp IO's basically non-existent in this game, so didn't include any.
Anyway, I never pick up Frostworks or Aid Other because if you picked up everything else in Cold you will NEVER need either those powers. This is coming from someone who regularly runs MoSTFs and MoRSFs on my colds.
Yet another /cold thread de-railed into a Frostworks rant, courtesy of Turbo-Ski.
Thanks.
My Fire / Cold Corruptor is nearing 50 and this will be my first 50. That being said, I am unsure of a few powers and whether or not they will be expected of me.
Benumb (Sounds great vs AV but otherwise not used much)
Frostwork?
Should I invest enough to get acrobatics for the anti-hold and knockback protection?
I think I want to go Mako for Hibernate, is the pet worth getting?
And then there are enhancement sets, which I know little about. Should I farm AE tickets and try to get recipes or, something else to get money to get recipes?
Thanks in advance, I know Iknow a lot of questions =)