Looking for end game advice on Fire/Cold for PvE

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Anyway, I never pick up Frostworks or Aid Other because if you picked up everything else in Cold you will NEVER need either those powers. This is coming from someone who regularly runs MoSTFs and MoRSFs on my colds.

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As the sole buffer/debuffer, on a pick-up group (which means eight random people who don't know each other ), with a 100% success rate ? Unless you can answer "yes" to that question, I don't think you can claim a Cold will never need FW or Aid Other (the latter being a terribly unefficient pick in my opinion, but to each his own).

In a STF or RSF team, there's usually eight folks. Running with friends or with cookiecutter buff/debuff teams doesn't say anything about the performance of any single powerset in that team.

I mean, you could take a level 45 scrapper with nothing but flurry and jump kick and run a MSTF with 7 controller friends. Just because you complete it doesn't mean you'll never need these powers - it meant your team make up and/or your buddies were good enough to make up for your build deficiencies.

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Anyway, I never pick up Frostworks or Aid Other because if you picked up everything else in Cold you will NEVER need either those powers. This is coming from someone who regularly runs MoSTFs and MoRSFs on my colds.

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As the sole buffer/debuffer, on a pick-up group (which means eight random people who don't know each other ), with a 100% success rate ? Unless you can answer "yes" to that question, I don't think you can claim a Cold will never need FW or Aid Other (the latter being a terribly unefficient pick in my opinion, but to each his own).

In a STF or RSF team, there's usually eight folks. Running with friends or with cookiecutter buff/debuff teams doesn't say anything about the performance of any single powerset in that team.

I mean, you could take a level 45 scrapper with nothing but flurry and jump kick and run a MSTF with 7 controller friends. Just because you complete it doesn't mean you'll never need these powers - it meant your team make up and/or your buddies were good enough to make up for your build deficiencies.

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Sorry but you can't convince me that 400-600 hp is going to save an idiot PuG teammate or that Aid Other isn't superior to Frostworks in a set that is very heavy in +Def and -recharge allowing plenty of time to get reactive heals off easily.

That's cool, I don't care about convincing you. If you seriously believe Aid Other is a superior power, our views of the game are so different I doubt anything I could say would make sense to you.

I was just pointing out jumping to your own experience in specific conditions to an absolute statement about everyone is a bad idea.

Just like how reactive heals are easier/better in a high def, high mitigation situation so is higher base hp. I showed you how that 400 hp we added to a corruptor acts more like ~600hp once you add the defense.

That extra hp can be stretched very far once you factor in your active mitigation.

It's why the principle of layered mitigation works so well, it isn't just a linear gain.

if cold had a heal other power I'd recommend it, but cold doesn't and cold itself isn't a high def set so once you rip off sleet, rof, and fireball you need to be prepared to have aidother interrupted. A lot. Otherwise 6 slotted to maximize heal and interrupt reduction. Compared to a 1-2 slotted FW that you use before fights. I'll put those extra slots into fireball thx.

Like I said before maybe an ice/cold is different, I could see how many people would build it for st damage only. It is a lot easier to move around the battle field and play medic when you don't have massive hate generation and cessation of your attacks barely slows the team down. Not so much for fire/cold.

W'sup guys! I guess I missed the beginning of this conversation. Okay, here's my take on Frostworks. As much as I like Turbo_Ski, I do have to disagree with her assessment of Frostworks. Here's an old copy of my analysis of the use of Frostworks with fellow Villain ATs. It's a little number heavy, but not as bad as DPS chain calculations:

Okay, first up, Frostworks buffs a teammate's HP by an amount equal to a percentage of the corruptor's base HP. That means different ATs will get a different percentage of the buff based on the ratio between a corruptor's base HP and that particular AT's base HP. Unslotted Frostworks gives about +44% of the corruptor's base HP. This is buffable will Healing enhancements, according to the Schedule A category. For the purposes of these calculations, I will use just the base +44% buff amount.

Next, rather than use actual numbers, I'm using percentages of the AT's base HPs. This puts into perspective the relative amount of "bufferage" a particular AT gets from Frostworks; 400 hp might be a nice small buff for a L50 Brute, but it's overkill for Stalkers.

Okay, here are the relative HP caps for the Villain ATs:

Corruptors: +50%
Dominators: +58%
Masterminds: +100%
Brutes: +114%
Stalkers: +33%
VEATS: +125%

Corrs, Doms, MMs, and Stalkers all have the same numerical HP Cap, but because they have different base HPs, some ATs can benefit "more" than others from HP Buffs.

Now, I will show the percentage of a AT's base HP that Frostworks buffs on equal levels for caster and target. Though it does +44% for Corruptors, it differs from AT to AT.

Corruptors: +44%
Dominators: +46%
Masterminds: +59%
Brutes: +31%
Stalkers: +39%
VEATS: +44%


From these numbers, Stalkers cap out with just one application of Frostworks. Corruptors and Dominators almost cap out with just one application (and exceeds the cap if those ATs get the +HP Accolades). Masterminds, even with Accolades, still has a little more to hit the cap (slotting up Frostworks for Healing probably would cap it). Brutes and VEATs don't come close to the caps. Even fully slotting for Heal, Frostworks could only cover +60% of the possible +114% Max HP for Brutes and +80% of the possible +125% Max HP for VEATs.

Considering that +20% Max HP can be obtained from Accolades and a small percentage of Max HP can be obtained from various IO sets, Frostworks can still be nice for most Villain ATs.

For a IO'ed and Accolade-badged stalker, Frostworks isn't going to matter much, if at all. No use getting this power if you team up exclusively with experienced Stalkers.

For Corruptors, Dominators, and Masterminds, just one Heal slot could allow you to hit the HP caps. It's a nice buff whose power doesn't need more than a slot or two.

For Brutes and VEATs, Frostworks can definitely be buffed to the ED cap to get max results. If you team up with Brutes and VEATs on a regular basis, then they will love you if you devote a few more slots to Frostworks, though you can still get by with just a couple or three.

So based on these calculations, most Villain ATs can still get a decent boost from Frostworks. Only Stalkers and the most IO'ed Level 50 builds would barely notice a difference. It only takes a few slots to get the most cost-effective results, unlike some toggle buffs. And, for the n00bs out there, it will not cover up costumes like the other two Cold shields will.

If you team up with many Brutes and VEATs, they would appreciate the extra HPs themselves.


REGEN & FROSTWORKS
It has always been common knowledge, particularly among melee AT players, that more HP increases the number of HP regenerated per second without actually changing the rate itself. For Brutes and VEATs, this is strong consideration for builds and survival. Brutes already have big HP and can get much more; giving them more HP effectively buffs their regen rates by hard numbers rather than by rates, which adds on another small level of damage mitigation.

For VEATs, though their base HP may not be high, their caps are equal to the Scrapper cap, meaning that they can definitely use more HP Buffs even after Accolades, powers and IO set bonuses. And when you consider that VEATs have a higher base regen rates, they too can benefit with a better return from Frostworks compared to other Villain ATs.

This is just another consideration that shows Brutes and VEATs get better returns from Frostworks than other Villain ATs, though most ATs will still receive a nice buff.


COMPARING FROSTWORKS WITH AID OTHER:
Frostworks is a pro-active, pre-fight buff, much like the other Cold Shields. This works well with /Cold since you buff up in the beginning, then blast or debuff during the fight. This power seems to be more in line with how a Corruptor, and specifically the Cold Domination set, operates. Plus, Frostworks works tremendously better for taking alpha and beta strikes than heals could.

Aid Other is a reactionary, pool power heal. Yes, it is interruptible, but a skilled player can minimize that risk. It would need to be used in the middle of a fight, taking time away from a /Cold corruptor's chance to blast or debuff.

Aid Other may still be a pretty decent power for what it does. However, it is a healing power, and though it ignores whatever kind of damage is delivered, it is still under the limitations that most "healer" builds and powers have. Plus, healing is more common than +HP buffs. If a team wants a healer, it might go with a thermal or pain domination as a secondary instead.

Either power can allow a team member to take probably another hit or two before dropping. Aid Other, however, can be spammed multiple times within the same fight to mitigate additional incoming damage. But, if you are spamming Aid Other just to keep the team alive, then there is probably something wrong with the team's strategy or toon builds that is making the fight difficult; Frostwork won't necessarily improve survivability for such a team either, unless it had some /WP brutes in it.

Aid Other could still be a viable power for some corruptor builds, but a /Cold corruptor seems to lose out more given the nature of its secondary. Hey, if you can use both powers within the same team, then more power to ya. But I would just rather stick with Frostworks on a /Cold corruptor and leave the healing to someone else. I don't want to have to keep spamming Aid Other when I should be Benumbing, Infridigating, Sleeting, Heat Losing, or blasting throughout the fight. I'd rather shield up and FW my team and then let lose with debuffs, blasts, and eventually scourges. The +HP buff is still more attractive to me than another simple heal, even after AT HP caps are considered.

Aid Other isn't a better power than Frostworks, though Aid Other would be better suited for a healer build.

And as a Fire/Cold, you are not a healer, you are either bringin da' fiery pain, or buff/debuffing for the team.

Also as a Fire/Cold, you will draw aggro if you go on the offensive. Your secondary will help, but not 100%. That means you might not last long if your teammates don't help you in some way. And with that much aggro, you will most likely be interrupted when activating Aid Other.

Okay so one ability, when added in with defense, allows more chances for things to miss the target and the target thus being able to get out or heal or pop a green. The other is interruptible, can't be used while being hit, does nothing to extend life that a green couldn't do better and doesn't really help the main AT that will be taking damage redside.

Wow, I am so sold on aid other.

Even when I get Aid Self on a character I take stimulant as the prereq, cause someone actually responding to the "zzz" in chat is pretty rare. I mean most storm corrs don't even realize that they have stun protection in their heal and just slot it for recharge and forget about it.

Also this is redside. Redside is about offense. If you want to sit around spamming aid other roll your cold dom blue-side. Defenders don't really have anything better to do than sit around applying long cast, interruptible heals since unslotted aid other is arguably more effective than most of the defender blasts.

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Either power can allow a team member to take probably another hit or two before dropping. Aid Other, however, can be spammed multiple times within the same fight to mitigate additional incoming damage. But, if you are spamming Aid Other just to keep the team alive, then there is probably something wrong with the team's strategy or toon builds that is making the fight difficult; Frostwork won't necessarily improve survivability for such a team either, unless it had some /WP brutes in it.

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except you don't have to spam it at all to be more numerically useful than Frostworks, only 2 to 3 times within 190 seconds, which is basically in between fights which makes the cast time and interrupt time irrelevant anyway or the need for either power.

No one is going to take a burst hit above their base hp with Cold's Def shields in normal missions anyway unless they are deliberately trying to get themselves killed. For STF and RSF the only person getting hit like that is the tanker or brute and they will HP capped or already close to it by that point anyway. What very little benefit it brings is negated by common IOs, armor powersets, and accolades at the only place it's even remotely needed, at the end game.

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except you don't have to spam it at all to be more numerically useful than Frostworks, only 2 to 3 times within 190 seconds, which is basically in between fights which makes the cast time and interrupt time irrelevant anyway or the need for either power.

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Then cast Frostowrks on those people you would heal before the fight. Same effect. They have a bonus XXX amount of Hit Points.

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No one is going to take a burst hit above their base hp with Cold's Def shields in normal missions anyway unless they are deliberately trying to get themselves killed.

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Perhaps all your teammate always wait patiently and meticulously plot and scheme every battle. My teammate and I always charge in manically and get huge amounts of aggro.

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For STF and RSF the only person getting hit like that is the tanker or brute and they will HP capped or already close to it by that point anyway. What very little benefit it brings is negated by common IOs, armor powersets, and accolades at the only place it's even remotely needed, at the end game.

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Brutes: 1500 Hit Point Base at level 50. 20% From the Accolades goes to 1800 Hit Points. 3 Heal Slotted Dull Pain goes to 2700. Still 600 Below the cap.

Tanks: 1875 Base. 2250 Accolades. Capped with Dull Pain

But not all the sets have a +HP power. Few people have all the accolades.

Thus, very big benefit for most people. I guess some people just play the game differently. Personally I like to shoot stuff instead of always avoiding ever getting shot at by following behind some big ugly dude. Frostworks is an excellent "Here now you gotta better shot at surviving power" for nearly everyone in the game except for the few exceptions that somehow flood every team of some players.

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Either power can allow a team member to take probably another hit or two before dropping. Aid Other, however, can be spammed multiple times within the same fight to mitigate additional incoming damage. But, if you are spamming Aid Other just to keep the team alive, then there is probably something wrong with the team's strategy or toon builds that is making the fight difficult; Frostwork won't necessarily improve survivability for such a team either, unless it had some /WP brutes in it.

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except you don't have to spam it at all to be more numerically useful than Frostworks, only 2 to 3 times within 190 seconds, which is basically in between fights which makes the cast time and interrupt time irrelevant anyway or the need for either power.

No one is going to take a burst hit above their base hp with Cold's Def shields in normal missions anyway unless they are deliberately trying to get themselves killed. For STF and RSF the only person getting hit like that is the tanker or brute and they will HP capped or already close to it by that point anyway. What very little benefit it brings is negated by common IOs, armor powersets, and accolades at the only place it's even remotely needed, at the end game.

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I can keep FW on 4 people easily. It takes at least 3 uses of aidother to match the mitigation that FW offers.
3x4=12 uses of aidother in 190 seconds (as you say)
12x4.1=49.2 seconds
26% of my IN COMBAT time spent spamming aidother

no thx. I barely spend that much time healing on my thermal on bad teams. Molly Medic is not a good role for /cold.

It is quite possibly one of the worst ways to play a fire/cold. That much time spent focusing on healing people would be an ok fire/thermal I guess.

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No one is going to take a burst hit above their base hp with Cold's Def shields in normal missions anyway unless they are deliberately trying to get themselves killed. For STF and RSF the only person getting hit like that is the tanker or brute and they will HP capped or already close to it by that point anyway.

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Again, there are a few misconceptions here.

Firstly, sure, no single hit is only to drop you from base HP, even with some defense from Cold's shields. However, that single hit is probably going to be accompanied by several others, which could cause a significant loss of HP in short amount of time, possibly even dropping a toon. Yes, this is what's called the alpha strike, and that can and will drop most toons except for the sturdiest bunch (like Brutes and Tanks). And sometimes, there is a secondary beta strike that can be dangerous but not as heavy as the alpha. That can happen to anyone, regardless of AT or TF/SF. Sure, Tankers and Brutes might expect to get hit like that, but unless that toon has excellent aggro management, a good amount of mob hate is going toward that Fire/Cold as soon as it starts throwing out its blasts.

In this classic "tanking" scenario, more HP over base would certainly be more of an asset. The extra HP will help take on an alpha or even beta strike regardless of toon. And it is even more so than Tanks and Brutes, who both may have the function of aggro management. If the tanking/aggro management toon can survive the first volley, the better they are for contributing to the team. Frostworks does exactly to increase survivability over Aid Other.

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What very little benefit it brings is negated by common IOs, armor powersets, and accolades at the only place it's even remotely needed, at the end game.

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Okay, I've actually done the research, and considerable +HP bonus are not that common, even with IO sets. Yes, with the accolades, you can get up to +20%, but that's still less than half of what's possible to max out (exception Stalkers, because they're not one of the cool kids). You can get +3% from IO sets, but only from Purple sets, so at best you can two of those bonuses. The next amount is at +2.25%, and even maxed out with five sets, would get +11.25%. That's sizeable, but unless you are a brute, most ATs would be building for +def or +recharge rather than +HP. Yes, the IO sets are optional, but if you are going out of your way to max up HP, most ATs get more out of IO min/maxing from getting bonuses other than +HP bonuses.

Outside of getting all the accolades, there are only a handful of powers that can personally buff max HP, and most of them belong to Brutes and Tankers, who can always use more HP to get to the cap. You can nickel and dime it with IO sets, but non-melee ATs get better returns for other bonuses, and melee ATs usually need far more HP to hit the cap. And with the VEATs, their max HP caps out at +125%! Even with the accolades, secondary powers, and IO bonuses, they can still appreciate additional max HP buffs.

And that's what makes Frostworks so great! Have other ATs IO out their build for some extra defense and recharge, some more damage and status resists. The builds that want to get more max HP will still be a ways from hitting their cap. So soft-cap off their def with your Cold shields, and show them the creamy filling with a big chunk of extra max +HP!

Now in most games, just getting more HP just means more HP to be knocked off before dropping, but in the CoX game, additional HP is not considered within a vacuum. It has been said before that more max HP also means better numbers for the same regen rate. You can't ignore that even passive regen can definitely help with an additional level of survivability.

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Firstly, sure, no single hit is only to drop you from base HP, even with some defense from Cold's shields. However, that single hit is probably going to be accompanied by several others, which could cause a significant loss of HP in short amount of time, possibly even dropping a toon. Yes, this is what's called the alpha strike, and that can and will drop most toons except for the sturdiest bunch (like Brutes and Tanks). And sometimes, there is a secondary beta strike that can be dangerous but not as heavy as the alpha. That can happen to anyone, regardless of AT or TF/SF. Sure, Tankers and Brutes might expect to get hit like that, but unless that toon has excellent aggro management, a good amount of mob hate is going toward that Fire/Cold as soon as it starts throwing out its blasts.

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I really don't know why you're talking about Frostworks saving the Fire/Cold dying from aggro since the two have nothing to do with each other. Also I can't possibly see a scenario against non-EB non-AV mobs where any AT is going to face plant from an alpha strike with Sleet+Ice Shield+Glacial Shield+Arctic Fog all mitigating right off the bat and Snow Storm + Sleet significantly hurting the attack chain afterward.

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Okay, I've actually done the research, and considerable +HP bonus are not that common, even with IO sets. Yes, with the accolades, you can get up to +20%, but that's still less than half of what's possible to max out (exception Stalkers, because they're not one of the cool kids). You can get +3% from IO sets, but only from Purple sets, so at best you can two of those bonuses. The next amount is at +2.25%, and even maxed out with five sets, would get +11.25%. That's sizeable, but unless you are a brute, most ATs would be building for +def or +recharge rather than +HP. Yes, the IO sets are optional, but if you are going out of your way to max up HP, most ATs get more out of IO min/maxing from getting bonuses other than +HP bonuses.

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+HP is a set bonus that is paired frequently with +Recharge bonuses in non-purple sets. Now tell me how many builds do you think aren't going for +recharge at all? You commonly get around 9 to 11% hp bonus from stacking non-purple sets that have +Recharge.

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Outside of getting all the accolades, there are only a handful of powers that can personally buff max HP, and most of them belong to Brutes and Tankers, who can always use more HP to get to the cap. You can nickel and dime it with IO sets, but non-melee ATs get better returns for other bonuses, and melee ATs usually need far more HP to hit the cap. And with the VEATs, their max HP caps out at +125%! Even with the accolades, secondary powers, and IO bonuses, they can still appreciate additional max HP buffs.

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With no IO bonus or accolades and only using Dull Pain:
Tankers: 12.43% from hp cap
Scrappers: 21% from hp cap
Brutes: 55.29% from hp cap
Crabs: 66% from hp cap
If they have all their accolades and IOs the hp bonus is going to be about 30% +/- 2%. However even if we leave that out Brutes and Crabs are the only ones that aren't going to hit their cap without 2 Heal SOs slotted into frostworks. Scrappers and Tankers cap out at zero Heal SOs slotted.

Let's also observe that the ATs that receive the greatest benefits are those with access to lots of self-mitigation to start with and those that receive the least have almost nothing in self-mitigation coupled with lower base hp and a lower hp cap.

Here in lies the problem, Frostworks is the only buff in the game you could possibly call situational. Fort, shields, SB, etc. all are useful no matter what AT they are cast on, but a especially useful for those that need the attribute the most. Frostworks however limits itself to only being real useful to Brutes/Scrappers/Tankers/EATs that have awful mitigation.

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Now in most games, just getting more HP just means more HP to be knocked off before dropping, but in the CoX game, additional HP is not considered within a vacuum. It has been said before that more max HP also means better numbers for the same regen rate. You can't ignore that even passive regen can definitely help with an additional level of survivability.

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because +61.26% regen is just so great for a willpower brute when it takes 3 Heal SOs to do so, and those slots are completely wasted on 8 out of 12 ATs and a good majority of specific sets on the other 4 out of 12 ATs. By the way, we're talking about an ally only buff that has a recharge and duration comparable to Fortitude but costs 4 endurance more and buffs for significantly less.

Whatever. You keep thinking in a vacuum concerning certain powers. And not every Tank/Brute/Scrapper has Dull Pain or Earth's Embrace. And look at your numbers; they don't lie. Room for improvement is just that. And even if you do have a Tank/Brute/Scrapper with perma-Dull Pain, that player would still appreciate Frostworks. Why? Dull Pain is used as a Heal rather than as a fire-and-forget HP buff; Dull Pain gets better returns if you use the Heal component for gameplay rather than just as a proactive pre-fight buff. Frostworks can raise the max HP during Dull Pain's downtime, increasing all associated stats with it.

To the OP: If you get Frostworks, get it late game. It's a low maintenance power which benefit most ATs, particularly the melee ones.

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With no IO bonus or accolades and only using Dull Pain:
Tankers: 12.43% from hp cap
Scrappers: 21% from hp cap
Brutes: 55.29% from hp cap
Crabs: 66% from hp cap
If they have all their accolades and IOs the hp bonus is going to be about 30% +/- 2%. However even if we leave that out Brutes and Crabs are the only ones that aren't going to hit their cap without 2 Heal SOs slotted into frostworks. Scrappers and Tankers cap out at zero Heal SOs slotted.


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Last time I checked (and admittedly it was yesterday, so things may be different now) Brutes are an exceedingly popular AT redside.

Willpower and sheilds are the most common secondaries I see right now.

You only team with blueside in co-op zones.

Only TWO brute secondaries have dullpain (invuln and stone) that leaves SEVEN other sets that don't. (unless we include /ea in god mode) Of those two secondaries the percentage of players that have perma-dullpain is statistically insignificant.
*FW is very important to use on /ea though because they use typed defense, so arc fog no longer benefits them (defensively) and the ice shields have holes to fire, cold and PSI (which /ea is already weak to). That same goes for the 99.9% of invuln users that aren't perma dullpain w/ full accolades.

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Here in lies the problem, Frostworks is the only buff in the game you could possibly call situational. Fort, shields, SB, etc. all are useful no matter what AT they are cast on, but a especially useful for those that need the attribute the most. Frostworks however limits itself to only being real useful to Brutes/Scrappers/Tankers/EATs that have awful mitigation.

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So first you blanket apply uber builds when discussing +hp, but then you ignore uber builds when discussing things like +def.

I see FAR more softcapped characters roaming around than one's anywhere near their hp cap. By your faulty logic we could just as easily say that the cold shields are situational, or that the positional only def of arc fog is situational, or that fortitude is situational.

But that just isn't true, not often enough to even warrant entertaining the idea.

The "situations" where FW is of poor value are exceedingly rare. You have to actively look to find them.

I will say that one great thing about taking FW on a FIRE/cold is that it makes your allies "feel" much sturdier (because they are MUCH sturdier). So they will just dive right in with no hesitation. That is very important because if you play with timid people the agro a fire/cold will gather is (ime) unparalleled.

I do not like requiring a babysitter, so I make everyone around me alleviate that need. I can't control how well someone else takes care of me, but I can control how much stronger I make my teammates and that greatly reduces the necessity of anyone watching over me.

There is more to using FW that just impressive numbers for an aoe agro monster like Fire/cold.

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To the OP: If you get Frostworks, get it late game. It's a low maintenance power which benefit most ATs, particularly the melee ones.

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I personally like it as soon as it is available. It's basically an impossibility that anyone has meaningful +hp at that stage of the game that would reduce the effectiveness of FW at all. Toons with dullpain are no where near perma until the late 40's.

Also defenses/mitigation are underdeveloped at that early for all AT's. Especially /cold who doesn't really start to shine both offensively or defensively on a team until they have sleet.

Adding 180hp (single green lvl 20 DO) to two people out of the box is actually pretty significant. I usually drop it on the lead agro sponge (brute usually) and a Dom. A less timid dom is a lot like a less timid blaster. Very good.

By lvl 22 w/ a single green SO it is adding just shy of 300hp to your two most agro hungry allies. That isn't just good, that is very good for an unslotted power.

It is one of the most powerful single slot powers in the game.

It's so powerful that you barely need to enhance it (does Forge suck because it provides great tohit and +dam in base form? *I realize you can't improve the +dam aspect). I think that is a good thing myself, but then again I like that I don't need to also slot recovery aura for additional recovery. I get sick of things being "the suck" until you 5-6 slot it.

Regardless, I think we're all in agreement (aside from Turbo) that FW is a worthwhile pick. When you take it is up to the user, just like anything.

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So first you blanket apply uber builds when discussing +hp, but then you ignore uber builds when discussing things like +def.

I see FAR more softcapped characters roaming around than one's anywhere near their hp cap. By your faulty logic we could just as easily say that the cold shields are situational, or that the positional only def of arc fog is situational, or that fortitude is situational.

[/ QUOTE ] Oh please go on about these many builds with 45+% Ranged/Melee/AoE perma-defense solo that are running around. Unless a player has all 3 of those capped while solo then Ice/Glacial shield isn't situational and neither is Fortitude which also gives +dmg and +Tohit.

Frostworks only buffs Toxic resist (which is a fluff effect since it's an incredibly rare damage type) and +HP. If HP is capped it offers essentially nothing else and the biggest problem is HP doesn't even need to be capped to make the effects almost pointless. It does this naturally when cast on blasters and stalkers since 401.59 is the max benefit it can provide, assuming the stalker and blaster has zero hp buffs. Any HP buffs to themselves of course negate the Frostworks benefit and make it even more pointless, since it only takes 34% to cap them and 30% can be easily obtained through accolades and IOs alone.

It's like if they put a Defense cap of 10% on blasters and stalkers, and a 20% defense cap for defenders, controllers, corruptors, and dominators. Then they left tankers and scrappers at 40% and left every remaining AT capless. Under those circumstances would you still consider Ice/Glacial shield good powers? It's the exact same situation frostworks is in now and why it's such a poorly designed power.

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The "situations" where FW is of poor value are exceedingly rare. You have to actively look to find them.

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Oh like when used on half the ATs in the game? Are blasters, Stalkers, Corruptors, Defenders, Dominators, and controllers all "Exceedingly Rare" now?

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I will say that one great thing about taking FW on a FIRE/cold is that it makes your allies "feel" much sturdier (because they are MUCH sturdier). So they will just dive right in with no hesitation. That is very important because if you play with timid people the agro a fire/cold will gather is (ime) unparalleled.

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The initial aggro and following aggro for both fire/cold and ice/cold are essentially the same since Sleet + Snow Storm vs Sleet + Snow Storm + Ice Storm is only a 10% -recharge total difference. The amount of aggro you obtain is identical, and I've certainly never had a problem on either my cold/ice or ice/cold with surviving such aggro. Also since no one is dying using the other 8 powers in Cold, there really is no need for such a crappy buff like Frostworks.

The +HP wasn't well thought out when they made the power, since they should have made it static percent increase targeting the recipient's base hp not the caster's and make it a secondary effect to something else like +Dmg/+Tohit. Instead they decided to set it up like a Ally heal which makes it functions terribly with the current hp caps.

Oh please, go on about these many builds with capped hp... or just fail at reading comprehension again.

I'm not even going to bother. You deliberately misquote and take things out of context, fail at reading comprehension, and are just flat out wrong.

We get it, you play with hp capped toons constantly and/or only stalkers and blasters (that have all hp accolades and fully IO'd), so the power is not worth your time and you believe aidother is far better. But at the same time you are so awesome that you don't take either of them.

You've been repeatedly disproved both mathematically and subjectively, but still you go on. Either you get it or you don't, you evidently don't. NBD.

The OP (and anyone reading the thread) has more than enough information to justify trying the power and determining its value relative to their needs.

The fact that you even use snowstorm in late game on part of these "uber" builds/teams you play with is pretty telling. But that is neither here nor there.

I'm glad that your teams don't need the extra mitigation of FW (or aidother on your builds according to you). Truth be told they probably don't need you at all.

There is nothing left to discuss, gl with your plight and have a good one.

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The fact that you even use snowstorm in late game on part of these "uber" builds/teams you play with is pretty telling. But that is neither here nor there.

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I think it says a lot when you think a -50% recharge AoE is useless in the end game.

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The fact that you even use snowstorm in late game on part of these "uber" builds/teams you play with is pretty telling. But that is neither here nor there.

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I think it says a lot when you think a -50% recharge AoE is useless in the end game.

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Did I say the numbers on it were useless? It is a good power, in prolonged fights. But if you are playing with hp capped toons that neither have use for FW, or because you are so awesome they don't need aidother either, then why would they need Snowstorm?

It would seem these uber builds and expert players you roll with would just cream everything in sight and they are so survivable they wouldn't need to ensure the npc's original attacks don't cycle again because:
a/ they are so survivable and
b/ uber builds kill so fast

The only time mobs would be standing long enough would be against exceptionally meaty targets, those targets reduce snowstorm to 7.5% -rech.

Maybe you wouldn't need to spend valuable in combat time utilizing the mitigation it offers if you prebuffed people to be more survivable?

In the time it takes you to use sleet+SS+icestorm my fire/cold has done sleet+rain of fire+fireball+blaze. If the team has any additional aoe output every minion is dead, the luts are in scourge range and so is the boss I just hit with blaze.

Different strokes for different folks I suppose, but the way you have presented yourself you play /cold like a defender would and have some weird fetish with it being a Molly Medic while in combat.

We definitely differ. The fire/cold build I posted for the OP doesn't even have Snow Storm in the final build. But I've already said I play fire/cold to it's strengths. I prebuff and I destroy. SS is redundant in late game (for me) because there is almost nothing I can't kill before the additional -recharge would pay off. So all it would do is extend the fight for the exact same outcome and the same incoming damage, just take longer.

Nothing escapes sleet, nothing lives long enough to cycle attacks again, why would I cast SS?

However, if you aren't making your allies nearly as survivable as you could and you believe your role while fighting is to nurse allies then ya, I guess SnowStorm is definitely worth casting.

Just to clarify a few things here:

Snow Storm can still be useful in the late game, even though it might not be used as regularly as other powers. Sure, the slow effect is cool, but since it's a target toggle, I really only make use of it if there's a single tough mob, like an EB or AV, or even one of the stronger Bosses.

Snow Storm also has a -Fly component, which is useful for grounding most flying mobs. I used it against some flying CoT Air Casters that were clustered together and trying to attack me. I hit Snow Storm on one of them and they all dropped like rocks through the hole in the floor (of course, this was in a situation where there was no aggro management and I had to pull whatever tricks I had).

Secondly, there are a few mobs that can escape Sleet. Not many, but there are a few, like Warwolves and Slag Beasts, and they can't even be stopped by Snow Storm. In such cases, I just hope that I can blast faster than they can attack.

I can see turbo ski's logic here, maybe its just the way they are saying it that its not coming through correctly.

Basically when you team with veats you cap Defense to all, those teams don't get hit very often as a result of that. Heck running around with 45+ defense is LOVELY!

The simple answer is since Ice shields grant major +defense you won't get hit as often then where is the need for the +HP if your not taking in damage? Also at the same time you shut your oppenants down with all the slows so they barely attack. And when they do its normally a miss.

Now to play to Frost's point.. the +HP IS something that is needed more than the shields in PvP now since they nerfed defense. That +HP does help

See so your both right if you look at it in the right light.

I can agree with you both here.

There is no place on the internet for more than one person to be right!

Review it again I say.

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Just to clarify a few things here:

Snow Storm can still be useful in the late game, even though it might not be used as regularly as other powers. Sure, the slow effect is cool, but since it's a target toggle, I really only make use of it if there's a single tough mob, like an EB or AV, or even one of the stronger Bosses.

Snow Storm also has a -Fly component, which is useful for grounding most flying mobs. I used it against some flying CoT Air Casters that were clustered together and trying to attack me. I hit Snow Storm on one of them and they all dropped like rocks through the hole in the floor (of course, this was in a situation where there was no aggro management and I had to pull whatever tricks I had).

Secondly, there are a few mobs that can escape Sleet. Not many, but there are a few, like Warwolves and Slag Beasts, and they can't even be stopped by Snow Storm. In such cases, I just hope that I can blast faster than they can attack.

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You describe prolonged fights, which I agree it is very solid in.

The lack of -fly is a weakness in my current build for sure. One I used to fill with web envelope, but I'm no longer a /mace build. It generally isn't a devastating weakness though to me or my team, so I can usually accept it.

IME the mobs that can escape sleet+rain of fire+fireball are the same mobs that can escape sleet+SS+rain of fire+fireball, except now I have a toggle debuff to keep an eye on running around and quite possibly agroing everything in the vicinity on to me.

Don't get me wrong, SS is a fine power, I just find that as the game goes on and on I use it less and less for both cold and storm. For my fire/storm troller and my fire/cold corr it just worked out that I dropped the power from my final builds. I still have it on my cold/dark and my storm/sonic though, but both are more defensively focused, where the two fire toons are offensive beasts.

To reply to Chrome_Family:

Here's an important detail to know about soft-capped defenses: it's not full-proof. There is still at least a one in twenty chance for you to get hit. And twenty chances is not a whole lot when you consider the number of mobs and the number of their attacks on big teams. And then you add in defense debuffs, and the each single hit just makes you more vulnerable to more hits, a "cascading failure" of defense. /SR is the only set that has significant Defense Debuff Resistance (DDR) to avoid cascading failure. Other positional defense sets, like Shields and the VEAT secondaries, also have some DDR but can still be susceptible to cascading failure for a short time.

The other thing to consider is that there are some mobs that have high Accuracy, To-Hit, or both. Rulaaru Watchers, Malta Gunslingers, and stacked-Vengeance Nemesis, and higher-level conning mobs can get a significant chance to hit through the soft-cap, and possibly even debuff that defense, which could lead to further problems. And let' not forget some of the mobs that have attacks with no positional tags!

The idea is that just one level of damage mitigation is not totally reliable. Experienced players know and understand this. Most toons are not going to hit the soft-cap in most cases, even after getting hit with both Cold Shields. And even if they do, a little extra help would still help. Frostworks is that little bit help. Especially those without soft-capped defenses, Frostworks can be a boon. Hell, I've had a Brute bother me for Frostworks as most Stoners beg for Speed Boost.

Again, the benefits of Frostworks cannot be seen just as a simple max HP boost. When you consider the effects of that max HP have on regen rate numbers, and the limitations of just a single level damage mitigation, Frostworks starts to look more and more attractive.


To Frosticus:
I have to agree with you there. The fact that this game can allow even radically different builds between ATs and even the same sets tends to lead to different playstyles and strengths and weaknesses. Some may be better than others, but there will always be some sort of compromise with whatever you get, given the limitless option available.

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Here's an important detail to know about soft-capped defenses: it's not full-proof. There is still at least a one in twenty chance for you to get hit. And twenty chances is not a whole lot when you consider the number of mobs and the number of their attacks on big teams. And then you add in defense debuffs, and the each single hit just makes you more vulnerable to more hits, a "cascading failure" of defense. /SR is the only set that has significant Defense Debuff Resistance (DDR) to avoid cascading failure. Other positional defense sets, like Shields and the VEAT secondaries, also have some DDR but can still be susceptible to cascading failure for a short time.

The other thing to consider is that there are some mobs that have high Accuracy, To-Hit, or both. Rulaaru Watchers, Malta Gunslingers, and stacked-Vengeance Nemesis, and higher-level conning mobs can get a significant chance to hit through the soft-cap, and possibly even debuff that defense, which could lead to further problems. And let' not forget some of the mobs that have attacks with no positional tags!

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Most of the -Def attacks that cascade easily are energy based which is covered by the resists in Arctic Fog. Additionally slows halt -Def cascading in it's tracks, assuming it even gets started off. The lethal -Def attacks that cascade are all melee which is easily avoided using slows again. As I've said time and time again, +Def and -Recharge is an amazing defensive combo.

One of you is from BC the other is from Houston. You will never agree on this. Since we have that out of the way let's turn this debate over to Universal Healthcare pros/cons.

/threadjack