Tier 9 Idea for Dark Armor

It has long been a complaint of Dark Armor that it lacks a tier 9 power on par with other armor sets. Many people skip Soul Transfer when building DA character because it requires you to die to use. This suggestion is an idea to rectify that situation.

My proposal is to give Dark Armor a power similar to Eclipse from the Warshade secondary, with a couple twists.

This would be an either/or option that unlocks at the same level as Soul Transfer. If you take one, you cannot take the other, much like Follow Up and Build Up for Arachnos Widows.

The power would work as follows:

PBAoE, 15 foot radius, minor damage. The radius and damage would be similar to Dark Consumption and Dark Regeneration from Dark Melee and Dark Armor respectively.

In addition to the damage, it would apply –end, -recovery, and –regen, as well as an un-enhanceable -7.5% to-hit debuff to each target hit. Normal base accuracy.

It would have the standard tier 9 1000s recharge, which can be enhanced, and a 120 second duration. It would have a cap of 10 targets (this is important, I’ll explain why below)

You would receive for each target hit: 2.25% resistance (scrapper and brute) and 3% resistance (tank) to: Smashing, Lethal, Fire, Cold, Negative Energy, and Psionic, all of which are enhanceable to around 4% for scrappers and brutes, and nearly 6% for tanks. You would also receive resistance to Energy damage at 1.75% and 2% respectively, which is unenhancable. Dark Armor is weaker to Energy damage, without being completely vulnerable to it, this would follow that theme. No Toxic resistance. At the level of resistance gained, it should be easily possible to cap resistance for any AT with this power available.

You would also receive defense at 1% per target for scrappers and brutes, and 1.5% for tanks. This defense would be enhanceable, except for Energy defense, which (like the resistance) would be unenhanceable.

Now for the part that would make this power unique amongst tier 9s.

Since this power would be directly dependant on hitting a number of targets for it’s effectiveness, a full endurance crash like other tier 9s would be unfair. What happens if you only hit 2 targets and don’t gain much benefit from it? Or worse, none at all and receive no benefit?

With that in mind I propose that the crash be directly proportionate to the amount of benefit you would gain. With the potential ability of this power to hit both resistance caps and defense soft caps it should have a significant drawback. You would lose 10% of your endurance for each enemy hit when the power is activated upon the power wearing off. I say 10% instead of a flat 10 endurance so you cannot work around the crash by the simple expedient of having more than 100 endurance. It would also apply the standard –recovery portion common to tier 9 crashes. This effect would last for 30 seconds post-crash.

You would ALSO receive a defense debuff equal to the buff you received from the power for 30 seconds post-crash. Yes, that means when you enhance the defense values of the power, you are also enhancing the crash debuff.

If you only hit 1 or 2 targets you will become slightly tougher for 2 minutes, but will not be penalized that harshly. However, if you hit the target cap with the power fully enhanced you will be nigh invincible for 2 minutes and EXTREMELY vulnerable when the power wears off, due to your toggles dropping from endurance loss and the possibility of dropping into negative defense. This vulnerability is directly proportionate to the extreme survivability potential in the power. If this power wears off while you are in combat it will run from being a slight inconvenience to an instant death sentence, depending on how much you were being buffed by it.

I put a lot of thought into this suggestion an tried to A) Keep it within the theme of the Dark power sets of draining your enemies for your benefit, B) make it a unique power that has something that other tier 9s lack, and C) keep the power balanced with other tier 9s by making the penalty for it wearing off directly proportioned with the amount of buff received.

I also suggested that it be an either/or option with Soul Transfer to A) remove the possibility of taking both powers and using Soul Transfer to completely skirt the penalty of a target-capped crash, and B) To ensure that Soul Transfer remains available so that the people who like and use the power are not alienated by having a power they find use for completely discarded. Precedent for this approach was set by both Arachnos Widow power sets and by the powers added to many Epic power pools, which makes it impossible to have all 5 powers in the pool, because you only get 4 power selections after they become available.

Any feedback for this suggestion will be appreciated. Also appreciated would be a suggestion for a name for this power, as I am drawing a blank.

Thanks for taking the time to read this!

Claws

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Dark Regen is Dark Armours Tier 9 power, they just get it early.

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

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My proposal is to give Dark Armor a power similar to Eclipse from the Warshade secondary, with a couple twists.

[/ QUOTE ]Cottage rule.

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Dark Regen is Dark Armours Tier 9 power, they just get it early.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then it still needs a better Tier 9 Power, especially for tanks.

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I use DA on a lot of my tanks. I think it is a great set - especially for a farm tank. (Hate having to get SJ to get good KB protection, but hey, nothings perfect.) I do not skip Soul Transfer. Why would one skip their self rez - especially one that causes damage and disorient? If anything, and the few people whom I know that have a DA build, skip Oppressive Gloom.

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If I recall correctly, when Arcana crunched the numbers on armor set's survivability, Dark Armor actually came out on top of the pack outside of Tier 9s, and was only slightly below the Tier 9s. Essentially, it gives a very high baseline performance, but without the Tier 9.

Also, most of my Dark Armor characters, if Soul Transfer were to be replaced, would be shelved because it no longer fits *their* concept.

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Apostrophe guidelines.

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I use DA on a lot of my tanks. I think it is a great set - especially for a farm tank. (Hate having to get SJ to get good KB protection, but hey, nothings perfect.) I do not skip Soul Transfer. Why would one skip their self rez - especially one that causes damage and disorient? If anything, and the few people whom I know that have a DA build, skip Oppressive Gloom.

[/ QUOTE ]What the heck is wrong with them? OG is the *good* mez aura. CoF is the one to skip.

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Apostrophe guidelines.

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My proposal is to give Dark Armor a power similar to Eclipse from the Warshade secondary, with a couple twists.

[/ QUOTE ]Cottage rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you read the rest of the post, Talen? Or did you stop there?

I wasn't suggesting changing the function of any powers at all. I was suggesting that a second option be added at level 32/38 in Dark Armor that was mutually exclusive to the current tier 9. In other words, a NEW power that is functionally similar to Eclipse, but not identical.

I was not suggesting that the functon of Soul Transfer be changed at all, as I happen to like it. I was also not suggesting a direct port of Eclipse. If this were to become an option I would likely have two builds where the only difference was the choice of tier 9s.

I don't think the Cottage Rule applies here because it's not a suggestion to change a power, it's a suggestion to ADD one.

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I use DA on a lot of my tanks. I think it is a great set - especially for a farm tank. (Hate having to get SJ to get good KB protection, but hey, nothings perfect.) I do not skip Soul Transfer. Why would one skip their self rez - especially one that causes damage and disorient? If anything, and the few people whom I know that have a DA build, skip Oppressive Gloom.

[/ QUOTE ]What the heck is wrong with them? OG is the *good* mez aura. CoF is the one to skip.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wally's Mart had a sale on beach towels and crack that day?

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I actually think it's meant to be like that.

The tier 9 for Fire Armor is also a self-rez, though admittedly it dishes out some nice damage rather than a stun... Would you also change Fire Armor's Rez into a tier 9 uber armor?

I always thought that was part of the lure of both sets. The ability to get back up in the middle of a hard fight -without- hogging the Empath's endurance.

-Rachel-

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Also, most of my Dark Armor characters, if Soul Transfer were to be replaced, would be shelved because it no longer fits *their* concept.

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Read the post again. I wasn't suggesting that it be replaced. I was suggesting that the set gain another level 38 power, which can be taken INSTEAD of Soul Transfer, with Soul Transfer remaining an option.

I am not in the slightest advocating the removal of anything from Dark Armor, as it happens to be one of my favorite sets.

Here is the relevant part of my OP:

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I also suggested that it be an either/or option with Soul Transfer to A) remove the possibility of taking both powers and using Soul Transfer to completely skirt the penalty of a target-capped crash, and B) To ensure that Soul Transfer remains available so that the people who like and use the power are not alienated by having a power they find use for completely discarded. Precedent for this approach was set by both Arachnos Widow power sets and by the powers added to many Epic power pools, which makes it impossible to have all 5 powers in the pool, because you only get 4 power selections after they become available.

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Bolded to emphasize the part several people seem to have missed.

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Also, most of my Dark Armor characters, if Soul Transfer were to be replaced, would be shelved because it no longer fits *their* concept.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the post again. I wasn't suggesting that it be replaced. I was suggesting that the set gain another level 38 power, which can be taken INSTEAD of Soul Transfer, with Soul Transfer remaining an option.

I am not in the slightest advocating the removal of anything from Dark Armor, as it happens to be one of my favorite sets.

Here is the relevant part of my OP:

[ QUOTE ]
I also suggested that it be an either/or option with Soul Transfer to A) remove the possibility of taking both powers and using Soul Transfer to completely skirt the penalty of a target-capped crash, and B) To ensure that Soul Transfer remains available so that the people who like and use the power are not alienated by having a power they find use for completely discarded. Precedent for this approach was set by both Arachnos Widow power sets and by the powers added to many Epic power pools, which makes it impossible to have all 5 powers in the pool, because you only get 4 power selections after they become available.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bolded to emphasize the part several people seem to have missed.

[/ QUOTE ]Bah, I totally missed that. s'what I get for posting right when I wake up.

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Apostrophe guidelines.

While I would not be opposed to adding alternative powers to sets (and I'd be fine if they added an additional tier 9 choice to Dark Armor for people that wanted it), my problem is this:

You really can't give this kind of feature to one set and not to the others. Why should Dark Armor get two tier 9 powers to choose from, but Invuln doesn't? The Devs would need to create this choice for every set, I feel.

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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus

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While I would not be opposed to adding alternative powers to sets (and I'd be fine if they added an additional tier 9 choice to Dark Armor for people that wanted it), my problem is this:

You really can't give this kind of feature to one set and not to the others. Why should Dark Armor get two tier 9 powers to choose from, but Invuln doesn't? The Devs would need to create this choice for every set, I feel.

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I actually agree with this statement. The only reason I didn't bring it up is Dark Armor was the only one I actually had an idea for. I have no idea what could possibly be added to any of the other armor sets to keep the field level.

It wasn't that I didn't think of it, just that I didn't think of a way to address it.

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While I would not be opposed to adding alternative powers to sets (and I'd be fine if they added an additional tier 9 choice to Dark Armor for people that wanted it), my problem is this:

You really can't give this kind of feature to one set and not to the others. Why should Dark Armor get two tier 9 powers to choose from, but Invuln doesn't? The Devs would need to create this choice for every set, I feel.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually agree with this statement. The only reason I didn't bring it up is Dark Armor was the only one I actually had an idea for. I have no idea what could possibly be added to any of the other armor sets to keep the field level.

It wasn't that I didn't think of it, just that I didn't think of a way to address it.

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Could address it by giving the sets WITHOUT a self-rez but -with- a tier 9 power a Self Rez alternative? Though I'm not sure -what- you could do for Willpower or Regen, since they both have both!

-Rachel-

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If I recall correctly, when Arcana crunched the numbers on armor set's survivability, Dark Armor actually came out on top of the pack outside of Tier 9s, and was only slightly below the Tier 9s. Essentially, it gives a very high baseline performance, but without the Tier 9.



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Exact why I made the comment I did.
Dark Regen allows you to refill your health bar when in typical combat every 15secs (With just SO
slotting, IO builds or hasten drops this even further). Thats a peak performance equivalent to about 1600% regen.
Instant healing is a mere 800%.

Of course that assumes 1) endurance and 2) 3 or more mobs hit. Outside of an AV fight, if you need to use dark regen, its a fair assumption that there are more than 3 mobs around you.

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My proposal is to give Dark Armor a power similar to Eclipse from the Warshade secondary, with a couple twists.

[/ QUOTE ]Cottage rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you read the rest of the post, Talen? Or did you stop there?

[/ QUOTE ]Nope. I stopped there. Because I figured that you were going to move on with the postulate of 'let's ignore the cottage rule,' and then move into the realm of 'let's buff dark armour,' which meant you were already on a different planet to me. I have a hard time holding my attention on stuff like that, like how I tend to zone out when a nice man on my doorstep starts talking to me about his relationship with whoever he advocates.

Seems I was pretty much right.

What were we talking about?

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Dark Regen allows you to refill your health bar when in typical combat every 15secs (With just SO
slotting, IO builds or hasten drops this even further)

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With just SO slotting it will kill your endurance pretty quickly, and if you are taking enough damage fast enough you will probably die while it is animating. I speak from experience on that one. I have repeatedly gone to activate Dark Regen while at around half health and was on the floor before the heal was applied. Also, if you have your to-hit debuffed enough there is a decent chance of it hitting nothing when you activate it, thereby providing no healing at all.

It has enough drawbacks to not be considered a tier 9 equivalent, in my opinion. It's just a really good self-heal

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...Castle's example was removing the +dmg and +tohit and making build-up build a small "cottage" hence the cottage rule. I do believe it originated during the Blaster defiance change/ AT buff discussions which are LONG gone.

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That the Cottage Rule you were talking about Talen? That's the closest I could come to quoting it, because even Castle can't find the original post anymore.

If my suggestion had been to change Soul Transfer into a power that does what I described THEN I would be ignoring the Cottage Rule. I was suggesting that a new power be added that can be chosen instead of Soul Transfer, while leaving Soul Transfer untouched and still available if you choose not to take the new power. They would be mutually exclusive in that you could take one, or the other, but not both.

The way I read the quoted part, the Cottage Rule would not apply here because it does not involve a power being changed, rather a new one being created.

Seriously, if you don't like the idea, just say so, there is zero need to belittle it because you don't agree with it.

Further edit: I'm trying NOT to be rude to anyone, I am aware the idea has a couple flaws, which was the point of asking for feedback. Please read the entire suggestion and make sure you understand what exactly is being suggested before you post. If something is unclear about my wording I will be happy to clarify what I meant. All I ask is a reasoned response, rather than a flame based on one sentence. (probably asking too much in this particular section, but I can hope)

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Well, it could be interesting if all power sets had some sort of alternate power(s). In the case that if you pick one certain power, another of the same tier would be greyed out. Besides slotting, power preferences, IOs and all that makes characters independent, different ability choices could make characters of the same primary/ secondary be a little more different than the other. Anything that can make my character more of an individual besides graphics, I am up for it.

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With just SO slotting it will kill your endurance pretty quickly, and if you are taking enough damage fast enough you will probably die while it is animating. I speak from experience on that one. I have repeatedly gone to activate Dark Regen while at around half health and was on the floor before the heal was applied.

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My own experience suggests otherwise. While there's no question dark regen is a trickier power to use than average, most accounts of its difficulty are exaggerated, and usually include significant observer skew. In particular, circumstances such as described above if interpreted literally are unsustainable regardless, and therefore no heal would allow one to face such situations often. At best, a better heal would allow a player to run from such a situation and not return, which by defintion makes such situations rare.

There's also the presumption that the full power of dark regen can only be utilized under ultra-extreme high damage environments, which presumes high burst damage as a consequence. However, even at lower levels with just SO slotting dark regen can be leveraged by skilled players in other ways. *Prior* to getting SOs I ran a Dark Brute with the strategy of never (rarely) using Dark Regen *during* or *near the end* of fights, but rather at the *start* of fights, when I was guaranteed the maximum number of targets. All I needed was enough health to survive long enough to get into position, and get full health without even heal slotting: just accuracy and endurance DOs (mostly endurance DOs: you don't need much accuracy if you only need to hit about half the targets to get back to full). Not many scrappers or brutes - even regen scrappers - get to start essentially every fight at full health.

Its not just an end-game tanking tool. It just has a reputation of being such.

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Well, since you've posted here Arcana, is the power I outlined in my OP at least decently well balanced?

I don't actually care if it makes it's way into Dark Armor, I would be just as happy to see it used as the basis for a tier 9 of a completely new set.

It was the mechanic of it I thought would be interesting. A tier 9 defensive power that is enemy target based, where the amount of crash you experience depends on the number of targets hit. The more buff, the more crash.

I suggested it for Dark Armor because it seemed to be the only pre-existing set that it fit thematically, since it has a bit in common with Soul Drain, Dark Consumption, Dark Regeneration, and the power that inspired the idea, Eclipse (which always struck me as a very Dark scrapper-ish power)

So, with all that said, is the power itself balanced? Numbers can always be tweaked up and down to adjust performance, they're not set in stone. What I'm curious about is whether the positives and negatives of the power equal out for the most part.

They seem to from my perspective, but I'm not very well versed in actually balancing things.

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Dark Regen is Dark Armours Tier 9 power, they just get it early.

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Then it still needs a better Tier 9 Power, especially for tanks.

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Better than Dark Regen? What other power lets you go from 1hp to full every 15 seconds?

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Also, most of my Dark Armor characters, if Soul Transfer were to be replaced, would be shelved because it no longer fits *their* concept.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the post again. I wasn't suggesting that it be replaced. I was suggesting that the set gain another level 38 power, which can be taken INSTEAD of Soul Transfer, with Soul Transfer remaining an option.

I am not in the slightest advocating the removal of anything from Dark Armor, as it happens to be one of my favorite sets.

Here is the relevant part of my OP:

[ QUOTE ]
I also suggested that it be an either/or option with Soul Transfer to A) remove the possibility of taking both powers and using Soul Transfer to completely skirt the penalty of a target-capped crash, and B) To ensure that Soul Transfer remains available so that the people who like and use the power are not alienated by having a power they find use for completely discarded. Precedent for this approach was set by both Arachnos Widow power sets and by the powers added to many Epic power pools, which makes it impossible to have all 5 powers in the pool, because you only get 4 power selections after they become available.

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Bolded to emphasize the part several people seem to have missed.

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And then every other set in the game will want a new t9 option. Sorry Claws, it's a good idea but it won't fly.

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And then every other set in the game will want a new t9 option. Sorry Claws, it's a good idea but it won't fly.

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That point was already brought up, and I agreed that if DA got this then the other defense sets should get something too. The only reason I didn't mention it from the get go was this was the only one I had an idea for.

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I think your suggestion is interesting but hinders on a rather large caveat; what extra tier 9 are the other sets going to get. While this power seems in keeping the theme and function of Dark Armor, I find impossible to judge for balance with knowing what the other sets receive.

For those of us that don't buy into the "DR is a tier 9" nonsense, adding a secondary tier 9 sounds appealing. There are those who actually like Soul Transfer and this option would allow them to retain it. I assume it's possible to make this type of change since it was used on VEATs.

If you want this suggestion to have any real weight, perhaps you can come up with alternate tier 9s for all the other secondaries. Then folks could comment on balance. Without a balance discussion, I don't see something like this ever happening.

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