Scaling Endurance

This idea is to simply help make the lower lvls more manageable and not as frustrating as they can sometimes be. It's a bit hard to put it into words as to clarify what the actual suggestion is, so bear with me as I'll do my best.

The idea is that during the lower lvls, maybe between 1-12 or maybe 1-20, your powers do not consume as much endurance as they do now. In other words, the higher your lvl, the more endurance your power will consume until it reaches the dev's prerequisite.

For example - the tanker's combustion power at the moment consumes rougly 15.68 endurance per cast, no matter when you take it, yet, the power is available at lvl 6 iirc (Not enitrely sure). With my idea, than when the tanker first grabs the power at lv6, than it wouldnt cost 15.68 endurance, but only 7.62 or something like that. But, by time the player reaches level 20 (the lowbie cap), the power will cost its original 15.68. However, if the player were to take combustion beyond lvl 20, than it will consume the dev's default 15.68. Make sense? Scaling endurance.

The reasoning behind this suggestion is that combat isn't as enjoyable in the lower lvls as it is during the higher ones. Beginning heroes/villains suffer from mediocre damage, frsutrating accuracy, and weak endurance management tools outside of inspirations. The reason I capped the lower lvls at 20 is because the player would be close being to slot their SOs, and also, they'll have access to stamina by then.

By no means am I trying to fix everyone's endurance issues. I'm just simply trying to make the lower lvls, a bit more fun.

You know... the lower levels are meant to represent those first days when your super character gets to discover that sure, s/he can do and be much more than the normal person on the street, but s/he is also by no means as "super" as those other superpowered people who can already fly and fire more blasts and throw more punches than you can. The idea is to grow a character through the levels...

Besides, slotting for Endurance, using those yummy blue inspirations, and getting buffed up by others are all valid and already-existing ways to deal with Endurance recovery. A big part of the fun in this game, at least for me, is overcoming those difficulties of growing a character and building it to suit ones' playstyle.

I'm unsigned.

Interesting idea.

But, if you never have to slot for endurance reduction at low levels, wouldn't people get upset that they're running out of endurance later?

Part of the reason endurance is so difficult to manage early is to get you ready for the higher levels when you have more powers burning endurance.

Also, in the early levels you are still a beginning hero or villain. You haven't completely mastered your powers yet, so it makes sense that you can't fight for as long. I look at endurance management as learning how to use your powers more efficiently as you gain levels.

So, I doubt you'll see any changes here. The devs would likely respond with "Working as intended"

I'm all for this. I can't stand the game pre-22 (except on regen scrappers) for this very reason. There will be plenty of people who say blue insps and slotting for endurance reduction are fine, or that it's part of the "challenge" of low levels.

That's all well and good, and if you like things the way they are, that's fine too. In my opinion though, it just makes those levels a slow, boring, grind.

I can see this both ways. One, they've already increased accuracy at lower levels and it scales away as you raise in level. Also, slotting TOs or even DOs into toggles doesn't do anything. What's 5% of .3 end per second?

However, at early levels, you're also using the most basic, low endurance powers and probably don't have a lot of toggles yet. The only thing that throws the early endurance usage out of whack is using Vet temp powers. Also, brawl and your origin temp power consume way too much endurance for powers that you basically need the first few levels.

Overall, end usage doesn't seem to be an issue until level 10 or so, and gets worse until you can slot end redux SOs or get stamina around level 20.

I dunno, i think it would be too confusing to have your endurance usage yo-yo. I mean, what if someone thinks their end usage is fine, so they don't bother grabbing any fitness powers or slotting any end redux, only to find that by level 30 they're winded after every encounter?

Also, enemies in early levels are partially balanced around you losing your entire end bar after a straight minute of fighting, so if you were to do this, the devs would have to re-balance the enemies and we'd essentially have the same problem all over again.

As a player, i can get behind this idea, but going into a design/balance mindset makes me weary of this suggestion and its implications. So while i'm not /unsign-ing, i'm not completely sold on it, either.

I think everyone's first attack that you are forced into should increase your recovery rate by 100% for 5 seconds. This attack is almost always very low damage with a very fast recharge, so giving it a built in recovery boost would allow you to keep attacking when you get too low on endurance, just do much less damage and at the same time build your endurance back up twice as fast as normal. This would come in handy not just at the low levels, but from 1-50.

It's kinda how CO works, but I figure they are stealing about 90% of the things that make this game cool, so why not borrow one of thier better ideas?

This isn't CO, and that isn't quite how their end recovery works.

To the original poster: If we were to make the lowbie game easier, we could make end reduction enhancements drop more, or make blue insps drop more. You will find arguments ad-nauseum on these forums about end usage being a problem at low levels, and there have been suggestions ranging from making stamina free (or the first power in a pool), to reducing costs across the board. You will also find people arguing that you can build nearly any powerset without it if you want. I always seem to take it, and most people I know base their character's maturity on level 20 or 21 as well (stam with 2 or 3 end mods in it), but I still think its just a choice I make. I could instead slot endredux, and if I did, I could take more powers. its a tough decision, but certainly doesn't need to be taken by everyone.

More powers that boost end recovery of you or your teamates would be nice though.

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This isn't CO, and that isn't quite how their end recovery works.

*snip

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Really? It's pretty obvious this isn't CO, way to state the obvious. Also, I know that isn't how thier endurance recovery works. That's why I said it's KINDA like CO. Giving everyone a low damage/quick recharging attack that boosts your recovery rate is not a bad idea, so I don't really get the purpose of your remark. It seemed negative, but I have no idea why.

If we're working on making Endurance more manageable for lowbies, why not simply boost EndRed TO's to a performance more like DO's?

It might be a reminder that EndRed slotting is also important, not just the more obvious Acc/Damage.

I'm firmly against this for two reasons.

One reason is the what I like to call "the creeping suck." The game starts out, everything is easy, your character rocks, you're mopping the floor with everyone. Then things start getting harder and harder and harder until you start wondering when you're character is going to stop getting WORSE and actually get BETTER as you level up. This creeping suck starts to creep in on Blasters around level 30 and outright ambushes them at level 40, as the game suddenly becomes a LOT harder while they haven't improved all that much.

I like to gain levels and become stronger. Having my powers cost more and more and more is not conducive to that. It creates a funny sense of lull, which always leads to an unpleasant crash when the training wheels come off and the game punches you in the face. I'd rather have as few instances of "sudden suck" as humanly possible.

The other reason is more religious. I'm sick and tired of people holding Stamina to be the holy grail of endurance management, so I will not support any idea to make endurance management easier until Stamina can be taken. Endurance is manageable in a lot of ways other than boosted recovery, and I'd rather people were forced to come up with them before they found an "out" so that they have a better solution even AFTER they take Stamina.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I think training Enh are useless and should be taken out back and shot. They should just have DOs go from lvl 1- 25. Training enghancments are part of the problem. I tend to slot my first two attacks with 3 accuracy and 3 end reduction right off the bat....and it's like I slotted nothing at all. I still miss constantly and run out of endurance every fight. Having usless enhancments is not helping the early game.

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I think training Enh are useless and should be taken out back and shot. They should just have DOs go from lvl 1- 25. Training enhancments are part of the problem. I tend to slot my first two attacks with 3 accuracy and 3 end reduction right off the bat....and it's like I slotted nothing at all. I still miss constantly and run out of endurance every fight. Having useless enhancments is not helping the early game.

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Except for two typoes that are fixed in my quote I agree with JDouble. Training Origin enhancements don't really -do- anything. Well they do, but it's not a noticeable benefit. Typically I run without slotting anything until 12 so I can slot DOs, and the difference is staggering.

However I'll also note that levels 1-12 with DOs would just be pathetically easy. =-3

-Rachel-

Actually I have a bunch of lvl 1-15 SOs that I have collected off the black market, and I trancfer them to new characters quite often. Even with SOs slotted, lvls 1-12 is not "pathetically easy". I just don't waste so much time missing and resting.

Oh I have so missed these threads.

It has been a while since I could paste this bad boy

Sha bang

This is the second in a series of point-counterpoint articles, which will review commonly requested player suggestions, and review the pros and cons of those suggestions.

This week’s subject – Endurance Management

POINT:

Endurance is one of the key factors in determining the pacing of the game. For an action oriented game like Co*, having to wait for endurance to recover is often a boring time sink. Making players wait around while they recover endurance can disrupts the flow of the game.

There are numerous ways in which the devs could modify the way we handle endurance that would significantly reduce the time spent waiting for endurance to recover. The devs could provide players with an inherent form of stamina, just like rest and brawl, or just up the recovery rate. They could also increase the amount of endurance we have, either at a certain level, or each level, like +1 end per level. The could also add new badges that lead to accolades that provide endurance pools, like some already do, or increased recovery rate. Another idea would be to add more temporary powers, like those from Mayhem and Safeguard missions, ones which would increase recovery or overall endurance. Many of the mechanisms for doing these things already exist, so adding to them would be easier than making up something entirely new. By increasing the speed of the game by making endurance easier to manage, the devs can capitalize on the action centric nature of the combat system, allowing players that enjoy fast paced action to maintain a high level of speed throughout a mission.

COUNTERPOINT:

But there are also certain reasons why endurance is the way it is. The most important is probably because the devs wanted endurance to be a tactical feature of the combat system. The game system is currently balanced around the existing endurance limits and recovery rates. Changing them could require a further set of balancing changes to critters. It is also possible to think of Endurance more as a percentage of available endurance, something that rises as we level, but is countered by increasing power costs.

Further, there are existing methods of endurance management that players can do that do not require any game changes. Power and Toggle management can be used in combat situations to decrease endurance usage, either by using the more cost effect attacks to defeat opponents, or turning off toggles of little or no value during the fight. Powers can be selected, like stamina, which increase personal or team recovery. Players can also make more frequent use of recovery powers, like Rest. Invention sets can provide increased recovery. Doing missions or collecting badges which lead to existing recovery buffs is also possible. It is also possible to manage powers through enhancements, adding more endurance reduction enhancements into powers, in particular, replacing recharge reduction enhancements. If all else fails, players can take on easier critters, which will increase the drops/level while increasing hr/level.

It is also possible to modify the way players can gain endurance modification, without necessarily modifying the game balance. Adding new power pools that provide a recovery buff that does not stack with stamina, or moving some of the recovery in stamina to other powers in the fitness pool. The devs could also provide another global endurance reduction, like the one that came with the launch of enhancement diversification. There are numerous ideas on how endurance could be modified.




In all, here is a list of all the robust ideas that have come up regarding endurance. Each has Pros and Cons:

1. Inherent stamina, either granted at a certain level, or at level 1 as represented by an increase in base recovery
PROS: Relieve players of the requirement to get the fitness pool in order to maintain game play speed, opening new power selections.
CONS: Fundamentally alters the nature of endurance management, could require other game balance changes to compensate.

2. Increased endurance pool, either a step increase at certain levels, a gradual increase, such as +1 endurance per level, or a new power.
PROS: Allows for an increase use of progressively greater number of powers available to characters.
CONS: Fundamentally alters the nature of endurance management, could require other game balance changes to compensate.

3. Add additional pools that end in stamina, or rework existing pools to allow stamina.
PROS: Allows great freedom in build selection while still maintaining the current game balance.
CONS: Existing pool changes may cause existing build difficulties for coding. Changing pools may require further pool balancing. Finding a different but equal pool to fitness may prove problematic.

4. Change global endurance costs, or modify specific AT costs.
PROS: Global change has already happened, so the code already exists. Can pinpoint specific AT needs rather then change the entire system.
CONS: Could require further balance changes, stamina likely reduced in effectiveness.

5. Modify the existing fitness pool, making part of the enhanced recovery of stamina available in other powers in the pool.
PROS: Requires minimal work to change, does not modify game experience for anyone not taking the fitness pool.
CONS: Does not provide alternative methods from existing conditions.

6. Add a new accolades and set bonuses that increases endurance recovery.
PROS: Requires minimal work to change, inspires proactive player action.
CONS: Likely small increase similar to other accolades may not address endurance concerns, may require farming of certain critters to obtain.

7. Add new temporary powers that can buff recovery, either click powers (timer or use limit), or inherent buffs.
PROS: Inspires proactive player action, temporary powers already obtainable via safeguard/mayhem missions, so the code already exists.
CONS: Stacking with stamina could require other game balance changes to compensate, may require farming of certain missions to obtain.

Hopefully this article will get you thinking about your own endurance usage, and perhaps provide you some insight into a means of addressing your own endurance concerns. Endurance is an issue which the devs have commented on in the past, so it is one they will definitely be keeping an eye on.


If Endurance is causing you problems, try a few of the following.

1. Turn off toggles mid-fight. Trade Green Bar for Blue.
2. Remove Recharge Reduction enhancements from your powers, and replace them with endurance reduction enhancements. Remove or do not use Hasten as often from your builds. Reduce DPS to increase DPE.
3. Select Endurance recovery improving powers (Stamina, AM, Recovery Aura, etc.)
4. Team with players who have AoE Endurance recovery improving powers.
5. Use Rest, it recharges in 3 minutes unenhanced.
6. Fight less challenging opponents, thus reducing the need to have toggles on at start, or reducing the risk if endurance does run out.
7. Do missions or gather badges which boost endurance amounts.

Not everyone will like the above suggestions, because they do not necessarily fit a particular play style. But using them works, and asking the devs to change something that works is going to require significant effort. Choosing not to use them isn’t going to convince the devs something is wrong. Certainly, if there is an endurance usage bug, it should be fixed, but choosing to play a certain way is not sufficient reason for change.

Also consider the following. Two people playing the same character, same build, and same slots can run out of endurance at different times. One player saves his AOE attacks for when there are actually multiple monsters in the target zone — doesn't fire Fireball or Ball Lightning or Stone Cages at a single target. That player also turns off any toggles that aren't directly contributing to his combat: Sprint, Superjump, etc. When facing enemies that don't do Energy damage, he turns off his Energy defense toggle; when the enemies are doing neither Smashing nor Energy damage, and do not stun, he stops buffing people with Increase Density to conserve power. That player slots for Accuracy; because he knows that hitting 9 times out of ten instead of 7 times out of 10 is like a 15% Endurance reduction over time — enemies will drop with fewer attacks.

Perhaps that player examines his attack chain and decides to take a medium-damage, low-endurance attack instead of using Brawl, which is pretty inefficient for its Endurance cost. Or perhaps he skips that attack and just waits one to two seconds for a better attack to come up. That one player may also anticipate when he has powers that do DOT — instead of wasting another attack to zap that last 3 Health away, he'll let the DOT take the enemy out at 2 damage per over 2 ticks.

The other player mashes all the biggest buttons as soon as they're recharged — Rain of Fire, Fireball, Fire Breath — and doesn't stop to wonder if a smaller, more efficient attack is better.

If the devs were to provide some form of modified endurance recovery, they would have to balance that with the rest of the game content. It would have to be weak, endurance reduction enhancements reduced, or power cost increased. They could also increase the available endurance pool, but doing so would require all powers to go up in cost as you level as well. Another alternative would be to increase the pool of endurance, but also maintain the current cost for powers by having each power do a set amount of damage. That would maintain the balance, but that would make fights longer because critter HP goes up with level too.

The devs believe that endurance management is a vital part of the gaming experience. The game is balanced around the current endurance system. If endurance management is a problem for you, try using some of my above suggestions. If you still experience problems, offer some counter balance for the increase recovery rate, otherwise the devs would have to balance all the current mobs to the higher recovery rate, which would take a lot more time than just adding a modified endurance recovery, and might actually make critters harder to beat.

Personally I just think some powers use way too much endurance. I love my plant/storm controller but i have like 8 powers that use more than 10 endurance each even with endurance reductions in them. Don't know how everyone else feels but I think anything above 10 endurance is too much.

Its ok when you're on a team with someone that can give you sb, or another recovery buff but when your solo it just becomes tedious trying to use your attack chains.

You haven't been looking Bowfling.

Haven't seen you in a while. been hiding from me?

Well, part of the reason I made this thread is because TOs are almost useless, and because of that, lower lvls cant hit anything, hurt anything, endure anything, nor be effective in a prolonged fight.
I understand that it's supposed to fit the theme of as you gain lvls, you become stronger, but there's a fine line between, being weak, and just being frustrating.

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You haven't been looking Bowfling.

Haven't seen you in a while. been hiding from me?

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the forums really, been doing other things with my micro time allowances.

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Well, part of the reason I made this thread is because TOs are almost useless,


[/ QUOTE ]no they aren't. They are 1/2 as good as DOs, and 1/4 as good as SOs. Plus, IOs, even at low levels, are reasonably effective.[ QUOTE ]


and because of that, lower lvls cant hit anything,

[/ QUOTE ] With just one even level TO, you should hit about 85% of the time. If you are used to 95% hit rates, it will FEEL like you are missing a lot, but tha tis only because you are missing 3 times as often. But you are still hitting 85% of the time.[ QUOTE ]

hurt anything, endure anything, nor be effective in a prolonged fight.



[/ QUOTE ] I have played drops only characters, even running one now at the moment, up to DO levels, and have no problem facing even level critters. If you face things harder then that, then consider that it isn't the lack of endurance that is the issue.[ QUOTE ]


I understand that it's supposed to fit the theme of as you gain lvls, you become stronger, but there's a fine line between, being weak, and just being frustrating.

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Frankly, I find the low levels to be easier, if only because there are fewer choices to make and therefore less variability in battle patterns. If you have become too used to stamina as your crutch to cut out endo redux, and then use that extra space to add acc or damage or something, I can see your concern, but have to argue that you are giving up at least one power, and sometimes people consider 3 powers and a set, as the cost to have that ease. Try using the techniques I suggested above, and I think you will be better off.

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You haven't been looking Bowfling.

Haven't seen you in a while. been hiding from me?

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the forums really, been doing other things with my micro time allowances.

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I understand that. I've been working some overytime lately, so I haven't had a lot of time for playing. I like to set aside at least an hour for that. But after work, I'm too tired to decide which of my several dozens of alts I want to play, let alone actually play them.

But, I can come here and read the forums. And I do at least twice a day.