Beta Testing: The weight of subjective feedback
By
7thCynic,
Posted on: 2009-07-01 10:35 in The Global Training Room Test Server
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Oh, and another thing....."feel wronged because Positron slapped my wrist..." is really super funny to me. I have never been banned, had my account locked, kicked from forums, had M.A. missions nerfed, characters deleted, nothing. Perhaps my opinion is based on 4 years of playing the game, but I understand that it may not be EVERYONES opinion. In any case, it certainly is not because I am mad for being disiplined.
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But apparently your PvP ego has been slapped quite hard - by Castle and Positron (I seriously doubt Positron didn't have a decent hand in it, changes that big require AUTHORITY! ;P)
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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.funny, I thought Positron said the new pvp was great, but apparently not good enough to be used for base raiding, oh well.
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There's more to base raiding than simple PvP.
And Lightfoot was just listing things from this issue - every issue (except maybe the first one or two) has various things that can be pointed at and linked to players. Such as ditching the ACC debuff on travel powers and going with suppression instead. Bodyguard evolved from player needs. Etc.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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Oh, and one final point to make.....you list 7 items of note as examples of how responsive to player feedback developers have been, but if you read these items closely, you will notice that 3 of the 7 are called "potential" changes that are "in the pipeline".....we were not talking about how responsive they could have been, or say they will be in the future, so your example shows they are responding to player feedback (on minor issues) a little over half the time. I suppose that is better than not at all.
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Hmm, and those changes in the pipeline are all cosmetic. One of which was basically suggested/asked for in dialogue with BAB today. One of the tricks of MMOs - always changing somehow.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
I just want more issues like i12. That was such a great issue. It's been a decline since then in my view.
you guys are right, the devs love player feedback, and jump right on it, how could i ever have not seen this was the case. i suppose that all the folks that think otherwise are just being big babies.
@Viking Queen.
I guess the devs do deserve the credit, they do in fact listen to more subjective feedback then most other MMOs but still listening to 0.000001% of player feedback is still better then not. The amount that they listen to player feed back is bigger then that, but its never on more then cosmetic changes. The rest of the changes are usually based on data.
Rite now, if you take the man hours to analyze the pvp activity IN-DEPTH, there is very little. The amount the pvp content is being used has gone UP, but thats more due to pvp io farming and badge hunting than anything. It's really a dead issue, many of the players who care to notice, have noticed the general decline of pvp popularity.
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you guys are right, the devs love player feedback, and jump right on it, how could i ever have not seen this was the case. i suppose that all the folks that think otherwise are just being big babies.
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Obviously you're sore over the PvP changes. But the PvP changes were a very unusual case. The problem was that even though the PVP population liked it the way it was, the overall numbers were low with nothing exciting in terms of the slope of the trendline. So they took a big gamble and changed it radically hoping to attract large numbers of "have-nots". Seems not to have worked, sadly. But to generalize that example to "the devs don't care what players think" is absurd.
Oh and I'm sure someone with better search-fu than mine can dig this up, but I remember being absolutely blown away by a post a few months ago cataloging dozens of game features that were directly the result of player suggestions.
But is it even automatically right for the devs to always listen to the players? There are times the devs have to take actions looking towards the overall health of the business even though they go directly against what players want. Obviously players didn't request things like the fire tanker Burn nerf, regen nerfs, the nerfs to Energy Melee, removal of Rikti Comm officer farms, etc. All of those things were quite unpopular but the game designers tried to make changes that would be better for the long term health of the business.
The devs are trying to improve a game that pays their salaries. Do you think that when a game like Auto Wars or Tabula Rasa failed, the dozens of people who worked on those projects high-fived each other over not having to be bothered by pesky customers any more and continued to draw salaries from some magical cookie jar? If you think the devs actually enjoy making decisions that result in even a small number of players quitting, you're living in some kind of simplistic pretendy world. Grow up.
EDIT: I'm not trying to be a fanboi here. It *IS* upsetting that years of negative feedback on things like the Posi TF and the Shadow Shard TFs have resulted in no changes at all. I am disappointed in the current state of the Hero TF and hope they make some key improvements. I'm not trying to say that the devs are infallible. I'm just saying that your extreme position of "the devs never listen and don't give a rip what we think" is absurd.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
you sound like a fanboy to me. fact of the matter is, i am not a pvp player, but the pvp situation is not the only example of how the devs ignore player feedback. nor am i the only player who thinks that the only opinion the devs care about are the ones that reinforce their existing ideas...but keep defending their "honor" or whatever it is, maybe they will buy you dinner after. They DID NOT nerf pvp due to player demand. they did not remove the C.o.P. trial because of player demand. If you can show me a post where players wanted the base raiding feature turned off, please post the link here. was the "global defense nerf" due to player outcry too ? please continue to act like they are doing you a favor by nerfing your toons, and making your powersets less effective.
@Viking Queen.
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Text of Barracuda Strike Force changed, based on Player Feedback.
Text of Kahn Task Force changes in the pipeline, based on Player Feedback.
Science Jacket 2 potenitally being changed to accept a second color on the center panel, based on Player Feedback.
Tier 1 Dominator Assault powers changed to faster recharge / lower endurance / lower damage for the Issue 15 Dominator changes, based on Player Feedback.
Power Customization (or at least, control over the hue of our Powers) coming in Issue 16, oft requested by players since the game's release.
ALL emotes that are available to all characters (not via the Boosters) being added to the quickchat menu, based on Player Feedback.
Combat Auras from the Cyborg Booster available from level 1, based on Player Feedback.
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And as another example of the developers trying to bring features to this game that the players request I give you PvP. The game was advertised as being uniqie by not haveing it at launch.
So the very example (PvP) that you are using as the basis of one of your arguements you give in your post came to fruitation because Jack caved in to not only the player base that was crying out for it but pressure from outside sources and the feeling that COH must compete with other MMO's that had PVP.
Regardless if you love or loathe PvP, (I avoid it like the plaque personally), IMO the epic fail was adding PvP to the game in the first place....
Dragon-King First level 50 -- Fire/Nrg Blaster
(and to many alts to mention)
Protector
Quote:
| Originally by Arcanaville: Everything in Praetoria was designed during a drinking binge in which the devs temporarily forgot the rules. |
There are actually 2 steps to responding to feedback- collecting it and determining if it exceeds a certain threshold so that it requires action, and THEN deciding what that action should be.
What's your threshhold? If you've got, say, 100k subs...are 10 complaints enough to reopen a system? 1000? 10,000? As someone else mentioned, there's a grey area as well of non-reporters both pro and con.
Even if you have (Y) players saying something doesn't work, you will have (int<=Y) different opinions on how to fix it, in many if not most cases. Fix it one way, someone still complains. Fix it another way...someone still complains.
I'm one of the complainers, for sure. Almost all of us are. I like the things I like, and I dislike the decisions and fixes I don't like. I've snarked in here about things that I've thought are boenheaded, and, unfairly, more so than I've supported things I've thought went well. I think it's human nature.
So, rather than the usual Manichean 'the devs do/don't listen to the playerbase enough' thread (which we have plenty of already, thank you), maybe what needs to be discussed is the /system/ they use for filtering and implementing player-suggested changes.
Things to remember:
-Common sense ain't;
-Overkill is the only kill;
-If someone asks if you're a god, run away.
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you sound like a fanboy to me. fact of the matter is, i am not a pvp player, but the pvp situation is not the only example of how the devs ignore player feedback. nor am i the only player who thinks that the only opinion the devs care about are the ones that reinforce their existing ideas...but keep defending their "honor" or whatever it is, maybe they will buy you dinner after. They DID NOT nerf pvp due to player demand. they did not remove the C.o.P. trial because of player demand. If you can show me a post where players wanted the base raiding feature turned off, please post the link here. was the "global defense nerf" due to player outcry too ? please continue to act like they are doing you a favor by nerfing your toons, and making your powersets less effective.
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Thank you for bringing humor to my boring morning. This post makes me feel better about myself and reminds me there is always someone more butthurt and jaded then I thought possible. 
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EDIT: I'm not trying to be a fanboi here. It *IS* upsetting that years of negative feedback on things like the Posi TF and the Shadow Shard TFs have resulted in no changes at all. I am disappointed in the current state of the Hero TF and hope they make some key improvements. I'm not trying to say that the devs are infallible. I'm just saying that your extreme position of "the devs never listen and don't give a rip what we think" is absurd.
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This. Yes, the dev listen, but to what degree? And is it enuff? It seems like they were surprised by the reaction to the TF/SFs. Sure, theyll make some minor changes, but itll prolly be all text, dialogue and such, but not much more. Theyll say they dont have the resources to make big changes cuz theyre working on future content. And thats understood, but should there be exceptions? If a TF is unpopular @ release, and they dont usually go back and fix content, should they leave it as is, possibly firever? Or should they hold on the future projects and get what they just released right?
Id be happy if they dedicated an issue to just revamps. Revamp the TFs, dead zones, etc....even costume pieces.
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The devs do not care about player opinion. There is no point in trying to understand why this is the case, because unless you are willing to complain to ncsoft about it enough to get someone replaced, then it isnt going to change. Sad but true.
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Sha, and you started playing this game yesterday right?? Or just started reading the forums atleast, I've been playing this game since beta, they are VERY good about listening to player feedback, and have been since day one. Now that won't or can't do it all tho, limited resources and somethings would take too much time money to do.
like
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Power Customization (or at least, control over the hue of our Powers) coming in Issue 16, oft requested by players since the game's release.
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but they are still putting it in.
troll = /fail
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like
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Power Customization (or at least, control over the hue of our Powers) coming in Issue 16, oft requested by players since the game's release.
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but they are still putting it in.
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Well, thats more of a suggestion/idea - which I have no doubt they listen to. We're talkin subjective feedback as in cosmetic/content complaints.
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you guys are right, the devs love player feedback,
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If it's something other than "lolsuck" yes, they do (exception : there have been a few times when people have been flat out told to stop offering feedback in [Mostly thinking ED here] insofar as trying to have a decision reversed. Very rare though).
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and jump right on it, how could i ever have not seen this was the case. i suppose that all the folks that think otherwise are just being big babies.
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However, you seem to be under the delusion that Listening to Feedback from Players is like a Catholic Priest listening to a Papal Edict. Listening does not mean obeying it and executing it as soon possible.
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they did not remove the C.o.P. trial because of player demand.
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No, they removed it because some issue in it's base coding allowed for a MASSIVE exploit that gave SG members *not* in the trial to be unable to complete a fed ex/Talk to NPC mission. Yet still collect the completion XP each and every time they clicked on the NPC.
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was the "global defense nerf" due to player outcry too ?
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No, but defense values had become something of an issue.
Various other games, like Everquest (or even World of Warcraft) suffer from "power bloat" where players get so very strong that to challange players the mobs had to get extremely powerful - resulting in players that didn't min-max being unable to do newer content.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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EDIT: I'm not trying to be a fanboi here. It *IS* upsetting that years of negative feedback on things like the Posi TF and the Shadow Shard TFs have resulted in no changes at all. I am disappointed in the current state of the Hero TF and hope they make some key improvements. I'm not trying to say that the devs are infallible. I'm just saying that your extreme position of "the devs never listen and don't give a rip what we think" is absurd.
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jet pack vendors were added as a 'fix' to the shard allowing all players easy access to the zones themselves. it was a simple, quick fix that did not require 4 hr meetings that likely sound much like the feedback forums except spoken in math.
speaking of math.
i sometimes get the feeling that, much like the operators onboard the ships in the matrix films, the TPB in CoX see it in terms of cascading code that suggests: blonde, brunette, redhead. except the redhead has a crooked nose, the blonde's ears are high on her head, and the brunette always wanted to be blond.
Kittens give Morbo gas.
If the Devs took subjective player feedback much more seriously than they do, nothing would get done.
For every player that wants costume piece x revamped, there is one that loves the old piece.
For every player that wants their powerset buffed, there is another that wants it nerfed.
For every player that wants a TF to be tougher, another wants it more accessible.
With the exception of major system overhauls like ED, every time I have sen a true consensus about somethjing, the Devs have done what the players wanted...
...granted, some times years later, after the players that wanted it had moved on or adapted to the status quo.
In the case of the new Reichsman missions, we will see fixes to the storyline since there was a consensus on that. I have seen no such consensus on overhauling the mission entirely (although there have been some good suggestions), with the excepion of the Axis Amerika/5th Column snafu, and that may be fixed when they overhaul those critters at some point months from now.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Oh, and one final point to make.....you list 7 items of note as examples of how responsive to player feedback developers have been, but if you read these items closely, you will notice that 3 of the 7 are called "potential" changes that are "in the pipeline".....we were not talking about how responsive they could have been, or say they will be in the future, so your example shows they are responding to player feedback (on minor issues) a little over half the time. I suppose that is better than not at all.
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I'm guessing you have never played another MMO because if you had; you'd see enviroments and Dev Teams that do not listen to player feedback beyond exploit or bug reports. The CoX Dev Team is VERY responsive to player feedback as compared to every other major MMO out there. And no, I'm really not a fanboi of CoX; I've honestly played a BUNCH of MMOs over the years (started with Meridian 51).