At any rate, looking over the feedback threads this has all been brought to his attention. Whether he does his job or not remains to be seen.
Further input is pointless.
I'm just going to retire my perma earth/fire until it stops being worse than it was last issue. That's my own prerogative just like if people are enjoying the new weaker /fire set then all the power to them.
Maybe after a year or two of datamining it will get fixed.
Okay, here's the numbers:
Blaze previously was 3.02 damage scale, with 10 second recharge. Now it is 3.18 damage scale, with 12 second recharge.
3.02/10 = 0.302 DPS
3.18/12 = 0.265 DPS
DPS (measured in terms of recharge, not activation time) has definately gone down, but most of that is because slower attacks have a lower DPS naturally, they are balanced that way. In order to figure out how much damage Blaze WOULD have done, we would have to apply the ratio of the base damage to the extra damage before, and match it to the current. This would give us a 3.25 adjusted damage scale. (since base damage has gone up from 2.12 to 2.24)
3.25/12 = 0.271 DPS
So, we have 0.265 DPS, not 0.271 DPS. That is a difference of 2.21%.
Applying the same logic to Blazing Bolt we have:
(old) 3.48/12 = 0.29 DPS
(new) 4.28/20 = 0.214 DPS
(adjusted for full bonus) 4.49/20 = 0.224 DPS
The difference is 1-(0.214/0.224) = 4.46%
By contrast, Flares was more drastically changed:
(old) 1.01/2.2 = 0.46 DPS
(new) 0.88/3 = 0.29 DPS
Note the DPS before was pretty high compared to Blaze and Blazing Bolt. And not just because of the DoT. But let's assume we want to preserve the previous ratio:
1.194/3 = 0.398 DPS
That's a loss of 27.1% of the damage, just from no bonus. Even if we assume the 15% figure Castle quoted is accurate:
0.966/3 = 0.322 DPS
And our DPS is about 9.9% lower than what we've estimated it should be. We'd still lose about 19% of the DPS, but that's better than what it is right now. And that's still way larger than the 5% or so from the other attacks.
Flares needs fixing, that is obvious, but 5% is not significant. It's not even noticable. And the figures would probably come out about the same for the other secondary effects, too, so increasing a stun by 5% duration is not going to be significant. Let's spend our energy on getting SERIOUS miscalculations fixed.
I prefer to use ingame numbers and in-game play experience rather than DS because DS is generally meaningless to most onlookers.
New flares fits into the role that old fireblast filled. It is much worse than that attack.
At any rate, I've already compared new flares to old flares and old fireblast in a previous post and it lost badly.
But here are the numbers for fire LIVE
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> NEW FIRE
avg dam Rech Cast DPA End DPE
flare 46.37 3.00 1.19 39.00 4.37 10.61
incin 123.79 10.00 1.85 66.91 10.19 12.15
blast 105.36 8.00 1.45 72.66 8.53 12.35
blaze 152.42 12.00 1.19 128.30 11.86 12.85
SlotDPA w/ FE SlotDPE w/FE
flare 76.05 109.20 20.69 29.71
incin 130.47 187.35 23.69 34.01
blast 141.69 203.45 24.09 34.58
blaze 250.19 359.24 25.06 35.98
</pre><hr />
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> OLD FIRE
avg dam Rech Cast DPA End DPE
flare 36.50 2.18 1.19 30.72 3.69 9.89
incin 75.50 8.00 1.85 40.81 8.53 8.85
blast 53.50 4.00 1.45 36.90 5.20 10.29
blaze 109.20 10.00 1.19 91.92 10.40 10.50
SlotDPA w/ FE w/dom dom+FE SlotDPE w/FE w/dom Dom+FE
flare 59.91 86.03 82.95 109.07 19.29 27.70 26.71 35.12
incin 79.58 114.27 110.19 144.88 17.26 24.78 23.90 31.42
blast 71.95 103.31 99.62 130.98 20.06 28.81 27.78 36.52
blaze 179.24 257.37 248.18 326.31 20.48 29.40 28.35 37.28
</pre><hr />
If you look at a solid build OLD fire has better DPE on everything except Incinerate. That makes sense because incinerate was just adjusted upward so responds better to +dam. Whereas the other attacks forgot to get more dot and it shows. Rather than being worse, they should be BETTER.
ie flares live vs old+dom may be 23% worse DPE, but it should be actually gaining a few points.
Fireblast w/dom looks to be ~14% worse dpe, but if it was fixed it should be a few points higher than old. So more like a 17% disparity.
But as mentioned old fireblast was used in place of new flares so the disparity is closer to 26% for DPE (vs old w/dom) and 24% for DPA.
That's the two most used attacks. Unless we assume everyone just runs around with SO's and never used FE or domination they are a lot more than 5% off. Does ~20 disparity when you avg the two attacks warrant attention? Yes, but my guess is not for a year or two 
All well, if people are happy and like the new /fire then good. I hope they play it and Castle gets the population numbers he was aiming for. I don't like the new /fire and I don't think I'll be playing my earth/fire much anymore.
Fireblast was my staple attack and it was a lot better DPA/DPE/DPS than new flares and it actually looks good. When one attack makes up over 50% of attacks used it is important imo.
If your /fire dom feels more powerful then I don't know why because it isn't. Other than possibly because we were told it should be more powerful.
this of course speaks nothing of the overall higher recharge requirements necessary under the new model, which are compounded by requireing more endurance slotting. Where does one get all the slots to slot 1-2 acc, 3dam, 2-3 rech, and 2-3 end??? oh ya IO's ARE required
bah like I said this is entirely pointless, either he will do the work or he won't. It isn't' a matter of whether it should be done.
gl doms
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bah like I said this is entirely pointless, either he will do the work or he won't. It isn't' a matter of whether it should be done.
gl doms
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Basically, all your chart really shows is that when you include Domination in the equation, the End cost seems to go up, because before you were boosting the DoT, which you don't pay any End for, with Domination. Note, though, that as you tack on more damage boosts, that difference cancels out. When you compared Blaze before to Blaze after, with just Domination, there was an 11% difference in their DPE. Yet, when you added in FA, that difference shrank to only 3.5%. Which is essentially what I said it was, and what it is when you just consider the base modifier.
These are not big differences. You're talking about a difference of maybe 2 DPE. And you already have at least that much advantage over the other Secondaries, Energy Assault comes out to about 18 or 19 DPE, if you figure the new values, or the old ones with Domination.
Flares is the only thing that really shows up as a big outlier, and I think we can demonstrate exactly why that is. The rest of it is just picking. And I don't have any problem playing Fire. I don't have any problem with the damage, which is better, and I don't have any problem with the Endurance, which I can control. Nobody's telling me that I'm doing more damage, I am, and I can demonstrate it.
23% and 14% on the two most used attacks aren't significant? ok
agree to disagree.
remember that the domination buff was effectively put into the base numbers. If it isn't valid to compare domination mode vs new doms then what is valid?
I'd appreciate you demonstrating you are doing more damage now. My dom isn't unless I have FE up. If I jam another ~40% recharge into the already perma dom set up it will, but that seems pretty ridiculous to me. At which point the end consumption baloons to well over 6 eps.
So my Fire/Thorns Dom, who is fully IO Reciped out at 50, got scarier? Nice
To Fairy person bemoaning about Psi & Castle, blah blah.
Quit the game already
JJ
I delete more 50s, then you'll ever have.
http://www.pandora.com/people/jjdemon
I still say right now, thorns feel like the "sleeper set" of the season. It really does seem to be doing AWESOME damage now. So good I'm afraid of future nerfage. (heck all these changes have me afraid of future nefs).
However, I will admit, I suck at numbers. I only passed statistics in college on a wing and a prayer. Any numbers person mind taking a look at Thorns in comparison to other sets damage wise???
My level 50 Dominators:
Madame Mindbender 50 Mind/Energy
Fly Agaric 50 Plant/Thorn
Nate Nitro 50 Fire/Psi
I liked my Fire/Thorn before the changes. Now I love her. So much that I started another one on a different server. I just couldn't think of a combo that I would enjoy more.
Even if /thorn came out to be the top AoE, a lot of people would still avoid it for the same reasons a lot of people avoid spines, the look and the redraw. Although after having to redraw the Vet staves all the time, I barely even notice it anymore. Except Impale, I really wish they'd do something about that one.
@ Sfort
Post may sarcasm
Leet speak, and generally difficult to read posts will be not be read.
OAS! AAS! LLS!
Ok, let me see if I get this right. I have a lvl 39 Ice/Fiery and I thought my damage is better than before but that could be because he has no sets, just pure SOs.
1. Current /Fiery's DoT damage does not benefit from the new damage buff which leads to a little bit less damage than before with Domination, right?
2. Flare is worse than before (luckily I hate that power anyway)
3. Fire Blast does less damage in the long-run but I enjoy the burst damage. One thing I don't understand about all the concern on old Flare is that once you have some +recharge, your old Fire Blast recharge so fast that do you even have time to use Flare? With the new buff, Fire Blast is on 8s which can be brought down to 4-5s with +recharge. I like the new changes.
I think Castle already said that he needs to look into the DoT damage so once that's been adjusted, I am sure /Fiery will perform even better. So far, I like /Fiery more and mainly due to the change on Fire Blast. I thought the old 1.5s Flare and 4s Fire Blast were too overlapping once you have +recharge. When my level is higher and with sets, I won't even invest in Flare. Just Fire Blast, Incinerate and Blaze is good enough IMO. I mean I still need to spend time controlling.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
[ QUOTE ]
1. Current /Fiery's DoT damage does not benefit from the new damage buff which leads to a little bit less damage than before with Domination, right?
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Firey's DoT DOES benefit from the new damage buff. It does NOT benefit from the increase in base damage and recharge time. In other words, Fire Blast does more damage now, but it does the same DoT. So since the recharge time has increased, it does less DoT proportionally than before.
Since previously damage varied depending on whether you were in Domination or not, and now it does not vary, it is difficult to make a flat-out comparison. But in simplest terms DPS is less than it used to be, if you are in Domination. If you are not in Domination, you are doing greater DPS overall. And if you have enough damage boosts, you should eventually gain more DPS in Domination, as well.
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2. Flare is worse than before (luckily I hate that power anyway)
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Flares is the one power for which the DoT has been eliminated (reduced to 4.5% of the overall damage) instead of just being left the same, relative to a greater base damage. This is where more of the End cost is coming from, since many /Fire users that spammed Fire Blast before are now spamming Flares for the same effect.
This also means Flares is doing less damage than it did before, under Domination, both in terms of DPA and in DPS. (Both the damage per shot and the damage over recharge time were decreased)
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When my level is higher and with sets, I won't even invest in Flare. Just Fire Blast, Incinerate and Blaze is good enough IMO. I mean I still need to spend time controlling.
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This has been my strategy since the changes. I use Incinerate a lot more than Fire Blast, and I'm also working Dominate and Levitate into the chain.
If you can afford it try slotting 3 GW Embrace + the Proc, Plus the Neuronic Shutdown Proc, and the Purple Hold set proc...for a chance to hit them 3 procs + the dmg from Dominate.
I used to use it on my fort and without using aim I killed a hp capped stalker in 6 shots. So...that means 1600/6 ~ 266.6dmg per shot. This is i12 before fort damage was wrecked, but now doms have fort dmg so I think it warrants comparison. So a dominate that averages that much damage seems pretty nice to me.
I used the GW's cause they give me an HP bonus I believe with four slotted. If you want more acc in it or what not, you could always go old school and slot hamios.
YMMV.
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23% and 14% on the two most used attacks aren't significant? ok
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It's not the 23% and the 14% that is insignificant, it is the 12% and the 7% for both Dom and FE. I slot FE for recharge, so it is up as often as it can be. Not to mention that 55% of the time I do NOT have Domination running. So for that time that I DO have Domination running and DON'T have FE running, I am paying more End for my attacks than I was previously. The rest of the time makes up for it.
[ QUOTE ]
I'd appreciate you demonstrating you are doing more damage now.
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Fire Blast does more damage now, doesn't it? Incinerate does more damage now, doesn't it? Blaze does more damage now, doesn't it? Your own table, DPA for Blast went from 99.62 to 141.69. Incinerate went from 110.19 to 130.47. And Blaze went from 248.18 to 250.19. That's DPA, not DPS, but you're talking about END COSTS. You're not saying damage went down, you're saying the End cost for the same amount of damage went up.
And damage was not SUPPOSED to go up relative to Domination, due to the base damage change. That was the result of the changes to recharge time. So whether I'm spending more End for it or not, I'm still doing at least the same damage as before.
I have way more burst damage, if I choose to take advantage of it. In fact, though, I don't, I have more than enough damage just because I essentially have Domination going all the time. I've even taken to waiting until attacks like Incinerate finish doing all their damage, since I know now it will actually kill them without needing to use a second attack. Usually just using Dominate to keep them still while they burn is enough to make sure.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd appreciate you demonstrating you are doing more damage now.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fire Blast does more damage now, doesn't it? Incinerate does more damage now, doesn't it? Blaze does more damage now, doesn't it? Your own table, DPA for Blast went from 99.62 to 141.69. Incinerate went from 110.19 to 130.47. And Blaze went from 248.18 to 250.19. That's DPA, not DPS, but you're talking about END COSTS. You're not saying damage went down, you're saying the End cost for the same amount of damage went up.
And damage was not SUPPOSED to go up relative to Domination, due to the base damage change. That was the result of the changes to recharge time. So whether I'm spending more End for it or not, I'm still doing at least the same damage as before.
I have way more burst damage, if I choose to take advantage of it. In fact, though, I don't, I have more than enough damage just because I essentially have Domination going all the time. I've even taken to waiting until attacks like Incinerate finish doing all their damage, since I know now it will actually kill them without needing to use a second attack. Usually just using Dominate to keep them still while they burn is enough to make sure.
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I agree burst damage has gone up, that's good for 2-3 minions and then what? Burst st damage is verging on meaningless in pve. Burst aoe fits very well with the design of the game, but if you are st damage dealer you need much more sustained damage.
You still haven't demonstrated it though. In terms of actually playing this game; if I gave you a power with 300 dpa that recharged in 60 seconds would that be better or worse than a power with 30 dpa that recharges in 6 seconds?
I would like you to actually tell me your slotting and how you attack that is giving you noticeably higher damage (and I assume faster mission completes).
I agree that /fire has a smidge higher peak potential now, but the slotting requirements necessary to unlock that relative to old /fire are daunting.
I'd have much preferred that old /fire had just been left alone like ice and just got the modifier increase. The old workhorses - fireblast+blaze are better than the new workhorses - flares+fireblast.
Damage would be about as high as the new fire, but slotting requirements would be way lower.
If the dot of new fire gets fixed and flares gets unsuckified then I'll sing I different tune.
The biggest reason to choose Elec is for buildup. Critical for PvP as the dominator suffers from a lack of tohit buffs.
A lot of PvP doms go /thorn just for aim.
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Well now my Fire/Psy will just collect dust until I can figure out if I'm going to delete him or not and my Plant/Fire has gone down on damage out put, slower recharge and now sits at a constant empty blue bar.
Yeah... thanks for the "buff"
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I just respec'd my Fire/Psi and took Scream instead of subdue. I had to lose a power and can't lose PSW since i invest millions in the Arma set. But, I am debating on taking my purple sets off of my fire/psi dom too since I can farm faster with my EM/WP brute. Sad, when he only has 2 aoe's, and 50% recharge. Outside of the villain farm toons getting borked by the brilliant devs I would say the dominator is still a pretty great AT. That is if you are a little whiney child that complained about them and screwed everyone else. All in all, Epic Fail on the so called buff. Oh, and by the way... While we are giving buffs to great farming toons you might wanna look at controllers. They seem to be pretty good at lvling people!
I PL myself! YAY
Ok trust me, I was the first person to cry FOUL on the PSW changes. I saw what was coming by simply connecting the dots before any actual numbers were posted.
I've backed off on that a bit. I always used Psyscream as part of my attack chain..so I'm not seeing much a diff on Fire/Psi. My fire/psi can still do his job. And I have to agree over all../psi has become a balanced set. I do think Castle and team did a good job evening out doms. But would he try the same thing with defenders or controllers..probably not. There are far too many players who like them the way they are..and poor defenders have been crying for a damage buff for ages now. Again I don't think Castle would dare touch defenders, that's just asking for trouble in a colossal way.
My level 50 Dominators:
Madame Mindbender 50 Mind/Energy
Fly Agaric 50 Plant/Thorn
Nate Nitro 50 Fire/Psi
[ QUOTE ]
Ok trust me, I was the first person to cry FOUL on the PSW changes. I saw what was coming by simply connecting the dots before any actual numbers were posted.
I've backed off on that a bit. I always used Psyscream as part of my attack chain..so I'm not seeing much a diff on Fire/Psi. My fire/psi can still do his job. And I have to agree over all../psi has become a balanced set. I do think Castle and team did a good job evening out doms. But would he try the same thing with defenders or controllers..probably not. There are far too many players who like them the way they are..and poor defenders have been crying for a damage buff for ages now. Again I don't think Castle would dare touch defenders, that's just asking for trouble in a colossal way.
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Actually, I think most defenders are more asking for SOMETHING to change. Defenders - as the overall AT, not just certain power sets - have not been touched or altered in how long now? Yes, they still work well - but Controllers have been out-shining them as the Team Support AT since Containment was introduced. And with GR around the corner - and the possibility that it will allow for the Corruptor AT to be introduced to Blue Side play - the Defender's niche will take another big hit.
If nothing changes, I can honestly see Defenders being an AT only played for those rare people who want to use one of the Support sets Corruptors don't get, AND blast at the same time. And if we get another round of proliferation? That may not even stay true.
It's time and past time that Defenders got an overhaul. I can sympathize with the problems related to changing a Force Multiplier like the Defender - they could easily become overpowered - but Defenders are underperforming now. And it's only going to get worse the longer they are left.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
[ QUOTE ]
Defenders are underperforming now
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I was so puzzled reading this quote I stood there for 10 minutes typing and erasing different answers, but I believe it speaks volumes by itself.
Obligatory emoticon : 
It was the DOT that was specifically buffed for all fire blasts across all AT's. Now it is the DOT that is much weaker than it was specifically buffed to be.
The DOT is the problem with the fire attacks right now (or more specifically their bonus damage). Fire is not receiving the bonus damage that it is supposed to as a game wide mechanic. It is a feature of all fire sets. If Castle wants to explain that the dot is actually too strong and is being targeted for a reduction then I can accept that. Right now it just looks like someone isn't doing their job.
I don't really care about the base DS, end costs, or rech, those are standard across attacks and look to be accurate for fire as well.
If you really want to get into the discussion of adjusting secondary effects then YES is the answer to your questions.
ie. If bonesmasher was originally intended to be x recharge with y duration stun then YES, if you adjust x then y should move proportionally. That is just logical.
The fact that numerous powers have been adjusted through the game (ie more than just doms), but their secondary effect goes unchecked seems ridiculous to me.
Either that means the secondary effects are viewed as virtually meaningless by the dev team (easily arguable just by looking at powers like PSW that have massive secondary and tertiary effects that play no part in the balance of the power). But easily countered when looking at powers like screech.
Or they ARE important, but someone can't be bothered to adjust them when playing around with the other numbers in the power.
Interestingly enough, it is largely the secondary effects that MAKE a powerset different from its peers.
Are you honestly telling me that you were ok when psy dart used to be 1.5 sec w/ 5 sec debuff and was changed to be 6 sec w/ 5 sec debuff?
Honestly? or are you just apologizing for someone else not doing a thorough job?
edit: when a "secondary" effect is a significant aspect of the "balance" of said power then yes it needs to be adjusted when the recharge/damage/end costs are tweaked. If the secondary effect is superfluous then it is less important and for the sake of speed could be skipped, though really if you are doing a good job it wouldn't be.