The best DPS?

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Why is it that Castle has adopted that rule? Why is it so earth shatteringly important that a power cannot be largely changed?

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There are probably a large number of reasons for the Cottage Rule. The IO set problem is one. Player outrage is another. Balance considerations are also more difficult because the balance heuristic is shifted significantly. That's why it's just easier to simply alter numbers rather than outright change function.

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True, true.

I do sacrifice DPS for safety it seems when I play my namesake, I mean, nothing was a threat to me after lvl 35, and after shocking grasp the game was a cakewalk.

However, by itself It cant do AoE blaptrolling, unless combined with /ice, /elec/ or /eng (due to more drain, ice's utility mixed with drains, or powerboost)

and when it cant do it's job in that sense, what does it have?

It has a pet which is essentially a Pwe-Pwe machine, yet it isnt too good at ST...the heck?

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I think that's my biggest problem: Elec gets an anemic pet in exchange for a tier 3 blast and doesn't really get anything to make it really zing. Short Circuit is horrible DPA. The secondary effect is painfully binary and hard to actually use. It's the only set I know of that has to largely borrow from its secondary in order to have a full suite of attacks. It's not bad because of it, but it's definitely not entirely competitive on the ST damage front.

If they made sparky either into a machine gun or do more dam, it may be all it needs..

It trades damage for safety IMO, but its not good by itself in the safety dept, unless paired just right.

Now that that is out of the way, what do you all think could be the highest DPS achievable by the kings of damage?

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If they made sparky either into a machine gun or do more dam, it may be all it needs..

It trades damage for safety IMO, but its not good by itself in the safety dept, unless paired just right.

Now that that is out of the way, what do you all think could be the highest DPS achievable by the kings of damage?

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I'm reasonably sure that fire/nrg and fire/elec should be capable of pulling more than 300 dps factoring in BU and Aim. Fire/elec could probably pull a tad bit more because of lighting field adding an extra 11 DPS and Shocking Grasp actually being a decent attack whereas Total Focus is rather bleh.

I agree that we're fully capable of doing so but too bad you can throw a rock at a blaster and watch them fold lol.

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Truth, but i cast it before combat starts.

And wouldnt resummoning a free source of extra 33dps be worth it?


(just a thought, but if we can prove via this that Elec is actually far behind in DPS....think it could see a buff? )

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It still amazes me, and i don't know why they haven't fixed it yet, after pointing it out many times. That VS never got the 12.5% BASE damage increase that all blaster primary attacks got back in, oh what was it issue 8 now?

That and it needs to fire off faster/deal more drain/have tesla cage or some variation or fix thereof.

Player99, when you make up your new chain: look at putting Havoc Punch into it. If your numbers are correct it's 70% more DPA than Charged Bolt.

^

I am, dont worry :P

Im also trying to see if altering the chain to alter defiance buffs come into play as well...

New chain:

I went to 15 attacks (20ish seconds) and it averages out to 251DPS it seems...

Sparky / / Def timer: 0
C. Brawl(1st): (109*(1+.205+.255+.9749)) = 265.40 / Act: .924 / Def Timer: .924 / 0 sec
C. Bolt(1st): (62.6*(1+.26+.255+1.009)) = 158 / Act: 1.188 / Def Timer: 2.112 / 1.188 / 0
Havoc(1st): (144.6*(1+.326+.255+.9749))= 369.58 / Act 1.584 / Def Timer: 3.696 / 2.772 / 1.584 / 0
ShG(1st): (100.1*(1+.425+.255+.9749))= 265.76 / Act 1.188 / Def Timer: 4.884 / 3.96 / 2.772 / 1.188 / 0
C. Brawl(2nd): (109*(1+.491+.255+.9749)) = 296.58 / Act: .924 / Def Timer: 5.808 / 4.884 / 3.696 / 2.112 / .924 / 0
C. Bolt(2nd): (62.6*(1+.546+.255+1.009)) = 175.91 / Act: 1.188 Def Timer: 6.996 / 6.072 / 4.884 / 3.3 / 2.112 / 1.188 / 0
Lbolt (1st): (102.6*(1+.612+.255+1.009))= 295.08 / Act 1.848 / Def Timer: 8.844 / 7.92 / 6.732 / 5.148 / 3.96 / 3.036 / 1.848 / 0
-.205, -.055
Havoc(2nd): (144.6*(1+.462+.255+.9749))= 389.25 / Act 1.584 Def Timer: 10.428 // 8.316 / 6.732 / 5.544 / 4.62 / 3.432 / 1.584 / 0
-.066
C. Brawl(3rd): (109*(1+.495+.255+.9749)) = 297.01 / Act: .924 Def Timer: 11.352 /// 7.656 / 6.168 / 5.544 / 4.356 / 2.508 / .924 / 0
-.099
ShG(2nd): (100.1*(1+.451+.255+.9749))= 268.36 / Act 1.188 / Def Timer: 12.54//// 7.356 / 6.732 / 5.544 / 3.969 / 2.112 / 1.188 / 0
LBolt(2nd): (102.6*(1+.517+.255+1.009))= 285.33 / Act 1.848 / Def Timer: 14.338//// 9.204 / 8.58 / 7.392 / 5.817 / 3.96 / 3.036 / 1.848 / 0
-.066 -.055
C.Bolt(3rd): (62.6*(1+.506+.255+1.009)) = 173.4 / Act: 1.188 / Def Timer: 15.526////// 8.58 / 7.005 / 5.148 / 4.224 / 3.036 / 1.188 / 0
-.066
C. Brawl(4th): (109*(1+.506+.255+.9749)) = 298.21 / Act: .924 / Def Timer: 16.45/////// 7.93 / 6.072 / 5.148 / 3.96 / 2.112 / .924 / 0
-.11
Havoc(3rd): (144.6*(1+.451+.255+.9749))= 387.66 / Act 1.584 / Def Timer: 18.034//////// 7.656 / 6.732 / 5.544 / 3.696 / 2.508 / 1.584 / 0
-.099
ShG(3rd): (100.1*(1+.451+.255+.9749))= 268.36 / Act 1.188 / Def Timer: 19.222/////////

Total Dam: 4193.89 / 19.222 = 218.18 + 33.18 = 251.36 DPS



now, if sparky were changed to have the 12.5% dam buff in his attack:

Damage: 50.05(44.49) Rech: 1.32(2.5/1.899) Cast: 1.32
Enhanced 96.9%: 98.56(87.59)
DPS: 37.33
Chain DPS: 218.18 + 37.33 = 255.51

Sparky Recieves Act and rech shavings:

Damage:87.59(44.49x1.969) Rech: 1.05(2/1.899) Act: 1.188
DPS: 87.59 / 2.238 = 39.14
Chain: 218.18 + 39.14 = 257.32

With both:
98.56 / 2.238 = 44.04 DPS
Chain: 262.22

just tossing it out there that sparky could make a large difference to elec blast if buffed a little..

But enough about elec blast not being able to breach 250 by much if at all..

lets check out the more damage rather than safety sets to see what we can pump out?

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I'm just going to argue semantics: the S in "DPS" stands for "second" as far as i'm aware.

Show me an attack, or a whole CHAIN of attacks, which can be COMPLETED WITHIN A SECOND (that does over 300 damage, to boot), and I'll shush up about it =)

In the meantime, make up another term to adequately describe what's being talked about.

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It's Damage per Second, not Damage in a Second. No matter how you try to semantically argue that you're right, you're wrong. The entire point of the term is that it is an averaged value across an extended time frame using a smaller unit to display the average contribution over a longer period of time. If you've got a problem with how DPS is used, then you've also got a problem with how recovery and regeneration operate as well since, they don't actually operate within a second as would be suggested by their read outs (end/sec and hp/sec, respectively). Base Regeneration is actually a single tick of healing for 5% of max health once every 12 seconds. That's not hp/sec, but that's how we see it. Endurance works the exact same way but with more, smaller ticks that are still percentage based.

It's the same reason why pressure is often measured in lbs/ft^2 or rain is measured in inches over an area rather than in a more discrete and specific measurement. I have yet to see any game that uses the term DPS (or any *PS) as a tool for measurement that specifically measures for a single second rather than the average contribution over the number of seconds that took place.

If you want to argue semantics, at least try to make your argument founded on something more solid than weak supposition and ignorance.

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Thank you. I was wondering what all this blather was about. "DPS", i.e. damage per second, has long, long been used in online games to mean over a span of time. DPA is good as far as calculations to build attack chains go, but for damage output over a period of time on a single target, you want DPS. It took X seconds to kill AV Y. What build makes Y the smallest? At least w.r.t. damage done, not necessarily considering debuffs, etc.

I've always been suspicious of extremely complex DPS calculations, especially when they try to incorporate effects like Defiance and pets. So I decided to find out mine the only way I know: pylon soloing. Go empiricism!

I bought a ton of Phenomenal Lucks and Resurgences, ate them, and blew up Pylon 17 in 5: 47 , using a timed Borea mission as a clock. By the formula ( 38343.75 / seconds ) + 127.8125 = DPS, that's 238 DPS.

I'm pretty certain I can do it in under 5 minutes: The Pylon would KB me everytime it landed a hit, and I kept letting my inspirations wear off or BU/Aim sit unused, all of which ate into my time. Can I borrow someone on Virtue with an FF defender?

I have a FF defender on Virtue- I think I'm level 34, though, and I won't be around until about Monday.

So maybe Monday afternoon? Send a tell to @Boltcutter.

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Truth, but i cast it before combat starts.

And wouldnt resummoning a free source of extra 33dps be worth it?


(just a thought, but if we can prove via this that Elec is actually far behind in DPS....think it could see a buff? )

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It still amazes me, and i don't know why they haven't fixed it yet, after pointing it out many times. That VS never got the 12.5% BASE damage increase that all blaster primary attacks got back in, oh what was it issue 8 now?

That and it needs to fire off faster/deal more drain/have tesla cage or some variation or fix thereof.

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The way I see it; VS was cited as one of the reasons for the pet recharge nerf. It is just that good

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Truth, but i cast it before combat starts.

And wouldnt resummoning a free source of extra 33dps be worth it?


(just a thought, but if we can prove via this that Elec is actually far behind in DPS....think it could see a buff? )

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It still amazes me, and i don't know why they haven't fixed it yet, after pointing it out many times. That VS never got the 12.5% BASE damage increase that all blaster primary attacks got back in, oh what was it issue 8 now?

That and it needs to fire off faster/deal more drain/have tesla cage or some variation or fix thereof.

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The way I see it; VS was cited as one of the reasons for the pet recharge nerf. It is just that good

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well, it didnt effect My sparky, he still does the same rate of fire as he did before the "nerf"

anywho, just throught of something:

do scrappers factor DPS by soloing pylons? because Crits could scew it...

crits are part of their damage output. Over time it averages out.

Unless you mean because pylons are AV? class so scrappers crit more against them than say minions?

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crits are part of their damage output. Over time it averages out.

Unless you mean because pylons are AV? class so scrappers crit more against them than say minions?

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From what I've been able to infer, the enemy ranks actually have a value of some kind. Minion and Underling are low and Lt, Boss, AV, EB, pylon, Reichsman, etc are higher. Scrappers have the higher crit rate (generally 10% compared to 5%) against anything above Minion or underling. Honestly, I've always found it perfectly serviceable to use the 10% crit rate or the "averaged" 7-8% crit rate when calculating DPS mainly because minions aren't really much of a threat and die so quickly any ways.

Keep in mind that most Scrappers use pylon soloing times as a DPS comparison within the confines of the AT.

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crits are part of their damage output. Over time it averages out.

Unless you mean because pylons are AV? class so scrappers crit more against them than say minions?

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Well, DPS isnt calculated for Minion battles...

What i want to know is, are scrappers only able to compete with/outperfom some blaster builds soley due to Crits when it comes to long term DPS?

Lets face it, its near guarenteed in a long fight to get crits.

10-15% (10 becaus eits tough targets, 15 for the special attacks that do that) chance per attack for double damage, over the course of like 100 attacks, is essentially like tacking on an extra 10-15 attacks into the chain, without sacrificing time...

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crits are part of their damage output. Over time it averages out.

Unless you mean because pylons are AV? class so scrappers crit more against them than say minions?

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Well, DPS isnt calculated for Minion battles...

What i want to know is, are scrappers only able to compete with/outperfom some blaster builds soley due to Crits when it comes to long term DPS?

Lets face it, its near guarenteed in a long fight to get crits.

10-15% (10 becaus eits tough targets, 15 for the special attacks that do that) chance per attack for double damage, over the course of like 100 attacks, is essentially like tacking on an extra 10-15 attacks into the chain, without sacrificing time...

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Ya dps is pretty irrelevant for minions, which is why I was asking what you were specifically talking about. The 10% crit rate they experience vs pylons is fine for dps summaries because dps generally doesn't matter much on things that they crit less against.

A 10% crit rate means 10% more final damage (not quite accurate for fire, but meh). If lowering their final dps by 10% makes them fall below the line you are suggesting then I guess that answers your question.

But I'm still unclear of what you are aiming at.

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crits are part of their damage output. Over time it averages out.

Unless you mean because pylons are AV? class so scrappers crit more against them than say minions?

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From what I've been able to infer, the enemy ranks actually have a value of some kind. Minion and Underling are low and Lt, Boss, AV, EB, pylon, Reichsman, etc are higher. Scrappers have the higher crit rate (generally 10% compared to 5%) against anything above Minion or underling. Honestly, I've always found it perfectly serviceable to use the 10% crit rate or the "averaged" 7-8% crit rate when calculating DPS mainly because minions aren't really much of a threat and die so quickly any ways.

Keep in mind that most Scrappers use pylon soloing times as a DPS comparison within the confines of the AT.

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agreed. The pylons work well though, they aren't particularly threatening to a solid scrapper build and they have enough meat to ensure that the test also checks for sustainability of the build.

AV's can work just as well for long term dps calculations, but they can skew results by fleeing unless you are DM or MA.

The pylons, like the RWZ challenge, are good because everyone can easily access it and run it at their convenience.

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crits are part of their damage output. Over time it averages out.

Unless you mean because pylons are AV? class so scrappers crit more against them than say minions?

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Well, DPS isnt calculated for Minion battles...

What i want to know is, are scrappers only able to compete with/outperfom some blaster builds soley due to Crits when it comes to long term DPS?

Lets face it, its near guarenteed in a long fight to get crits.

10-15% (10 becaus eits tough targets, 15 for the special attacks that do that) chance per attack for double damage, over the course of like 100 attacks, is essentially like tacking on an extra 10-15 attacks into the chain, without sacrificing time...

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Ya dps is pretty irrelevant for minions, which is why I was asking what you were specifically talking about. The 10% crit rate they experience vs pylons is fine for dps summaries because dps generally doesn't matter much on things that they crit less against.

A 10% crit rate means 10% more final damage (not quite accurate for fire, but meh). If lowering their final dps by 10% makes them fall below the line you are suggesting then I guess that answers your question.

But I'm still unclear of what you are aiming at.

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what Im aiming at is whether or not its Crits that make all the difference for scrappers when it comes to out-DPSing blasters in certain cases

For example, what does the pylon have? 38khp?

that means a scrapper has to do 38k damage

that much damage is helped tremendously in the long-run by a 10% boost...(38000 vs 41800)

Say they do a hypothetical 100attacks to reach the 38k, and it takes 5min (300sec)
(126.7dps for those who are counting...)

Now, they crit 10% of the time

38000/10=3800+38000=41800

41800/300=139.3 DPS

38000/139.3= 272.79sec, or 4.5 min

this is discounting regen of the pylon, etc etc. but the point is, that 10% from crits can push the numbers significantly...

Scrappers don't out-DPS blasters because of crits.

IF scrappers out-DPS blasters it is generally because of one of two things:

1) Scrapper spent a billion on the build, and Blaster did not, or
2) Blaster is not using all the tools they have.

I suppose there is case
3) Blaster is dead on floor in the first two runthroughs of the attack chain.

the third is irrelevant when we are just trying t do the numbers...and most blasters know how to live

A scrapper built to solo a Pylon could outdamage a blaster built to do the same, because part of soloing a pylon is surviving it, and a scrapper can do a much easier job of it. A blaster built for max survivability will likely have to sacrifice a bit of DPS in the process.

Take that out of the equation and there's no way a scrapper should outdamage a blaster built for pure DPS, unless you're talking about like a Dark/Shields vs. Sonic/Dev or some silly mismatch.

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Scrappers don't out-DPS blasters because of crits.

IF scrappers out-DPS blasters it is generally because of one of two things:

1) Scrapper spent a billion on the build, and Blaster did not, or
2) Blaster is not using all the tools they have.

I suppose there is case
3) Blaster is dead on floor in the first two runthroughs of the attack chain.

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Then there's the whole single vs. multiple target issue. A blapper might max out DPS including their fire sword or whatever, but some blasters, myself included, don't take it, preferring to take anything that helps with ranged instead. After all, the only thing that lasts long enough to be worth it is an AV, and I'd rather be in the rear with the gear than risk it adding a few percent to the DPS. You croak, the DPS of the group tends to go way, way down.

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A scrapper built to solo a Pylon could outdamage a blaster built to do the same, because part of soloing a pylon is surviving it, and a scrapper can do a much easier job of it. A blaster built for max survivability will likely have to sacrifice a bit of DPS in the process.

Take that out of the equation and there's no way a scrapper should outdamage a blaster built for pure DPS, unless you're talking about like a Dark/Shields vs. Sonic/Dev or some silly mismatch.

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Any /Ment properly built will outdamage any scrapper against a pylon. /Ment produces by far the most damage for any one click against hard targets. Its so lopsided that I don't know when I will stop laughing at people that made the claim that fire/elec or Fire/energy had the best DPS.

Just to put this in perspective /ment has a 3750 point dot attack that does not need aim or build up and takes 1.33 seconds to cast. Nothing on the scrapper side or any other blaster secondary comes close