[ QUOTE ]
I don't see many builds clamoring for /Thorns for PvP... It has 4 very hard hitting medium and long range attacks...
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PvP is totally broken since i13. Attacks dont get adjustements according to their cast times, their dmg is totally normalized to their cast times. So it's no difference at all if it hits hard or not in PvE. Doesnt count there.
Furthermore, check your Mids on pvp mode to have an idea : Air Superiority, Kick and Flurry deal twice as more dmg as any of your set attacks, so why bother with them unless they're range ?
The new system is an absurdity. The devs are too stubborn to reverse to the old mechanics. Most of the good pvpers have left the game since long, or just pve now. That's why you wont read alot about each of each set being good or not in pvp.
Anyway good luck 
Translation: roll Electric.
Thorns is OK (it's the Dom version of the PvP favorite Spines, after all) but the long animations and redraw can be deadly in the PvP environment.
So, roll Electric.
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Thorny Assault looks great on paper due to its PvP damage, but the problem with that is the damage comes at the price of huge animation times, which can get you killed.
In short, Thorny Assault is good in theory but not in practice.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Doesn't Electric have the same problem? The biggest source of damage in the set has a 3.3 second cast time, and in melee range no less. It only has 2 ranged attacks. Thorns has Impale which is a 2.43 cast time but from 80 feet, and can then follow up with Thorny Darts at 1.33 cast time, adds up to about the same damage but from 80 feet away, .46 seconds more cast but you can move between them, and they are back up extremely fast. Also about 7 less endurance use total. This isn't counting procs either. How bad is the redraw on Thorns?
Thunder Strike hits like a ton of bricks, which is the only reason it's worth its cast time. It also does KB and has a toggle-dropping mez built-in.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Not meaning to repeat myself or anything, but if I can get similar results to Thunderstrike, from 80 feet away, for 7 less endurance, with some time to move in the middle of the cast time, and can do it over and over again, not to mention reduce their resists by 20% some of the time, why is Thunderstrike better? Having a knockdown and a mez seems redundant in PvP for a Mind Dominator, as my primary will take care of those on demand, from range, and then they will be immune for a bit. I'm just not feeling the idea of intentionally going into melee range as a squishy, seems counter-intuitive, and it seems to me that there's a better option available.
[ QUOTE ]
Not meaning to repeat myself or anything, but if I can get similar results to Thunderstrike, from 80 feet away, for 7 less endurance, with some time to move in the middle of the cast time, and can do it over and over again, not to mention reduce their resists by 20% some of the time, why is Thunderstrike better? Having a knockdown and a mez seems redundant in PvP for a Mind Dominator, as my primary will take care of those on demand, from range, and then they will be immune for a bit. I'm just not feeling the idea of intentionally going into melee range as a squishy, seems counter-intuitive, and it seems to me that there's a better option available.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds like you've pretty much made up your mind then despite what people who have tried it are telling you.
Good luck with that.
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Not meaning to repeat myself or anything, but if I can get similar results to Thunderstrike, from 80 feet away, for 7 less endurance, with some time to move in the middle of the cast time, and can do it over and over again, not to mention reduce their resists by 20% some of the time, why is Thunderstrike better? Having a knockdown and a mez seems redundant in PvP for a Mind Dominator, as my primary will take care of those on demand, from range, and then they will be immune for a bit. I'm just not feeling the idea of intentionally going into melee range as a squishy, seems counter-intuitive, and it seems to me that there's a better option available.
[/ QUOTE ]
gl w/ your mind/thorns. Just don't say no one tried to tell you 
I'm still open-minded to other ideas, it's just that nobody has put forth a reason aside from long animation times and redraw on Thorns. Elec's biggest attack has a significantly longer aniimation time and it's melee. How useful are the other parts of Elec? I just want to make sure I'm not building a one-trick pony.
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Not meaning to repeat myself or anything, but if I can get similar results to Thunderstrike, from 80 feet away, for 7 less endurance, with some time to move in the middle of the cast time, and can do it over and over again, not to mention reduce their resists by 20% some of the time, why is Thunderstrike better? Having a knockdown and a mez seems redundant in PvP for a Mind Dominator, as my primary will take care of those on demand, from range, and then they will be immune for a bit. I'm just not feeling the idea of intentionally going into melee range as a squishy, seems counter-intuitive, and it seems to me that there's a better option available.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds like you've pretty much made up your mind then despite what people who have tried it are telling you.
Good luck with that.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think he's still open minded to suggestions, he's just wanting a better explanation as to "why" */Thorns isn't as good as the glorified */Elec, and to be honest, no one has given him very good answers. If I were him, I too would still be confused.
Again, it sounds like he basically needs better answers as to "why" people are saying this, and maybe even some minor "scenario" examples too (such as he gave). I think the problem is he doesn't like the "it rawks just because it does" answer.
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I think the problem is he doesn't like the "it rawks just because it does" answer.
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What if they said it rawks "hardcore!"
Anyway I agree. On paper Thorns looks better than Electric.
/elec gets voltaic sentinel. Coupled with say fire, and the PPP's, you have the potential to run 3 pets at the same time. One that does decent damage, and two that drain endurance along with all your other attacks with the third healing you sometimes.
/elec also gets buildup. /thorns attacks do largely lethal damage, which is more resisted. all of /elecs attacks drain endurance. Though not a lot, it does add up especially if you take power sink from the Mu pool. That and you should also consider what kind of damage you'll be doing with the revamp doms'll be getting next issue.
From Detailed info taken on test, these are the pvp damage numbers at level 50, unenhanced:
Electricity Assault:
C.Bolts: 115
C.Brawl: 125
Bolt: 173
Havoc: 190
Zapp: 303
Static: 96
T.Strike: 336
Thorns:
Darts: 138
Skewer: 208
Fling: 198
Impale: 236
Burst: 196
Trops: 125
Ripper: 227
Barrage: 216
So while T.Strike does have a long activation time, it's an attack you'd use once someone was held anyways. Whereas your highest damaging attacks as /thorns (Impale, Ripper, Barrage) all have an act time of around 2 seconds, and you'd be using those as part of your attack chain. Elec's other attacks animate in about a second or less. That and /elecs snipe allows you to intentionally interrupt it to gain domination faster.
Ah, see, now biff is getting alot warmer to the explanation that the OP wanted I think lol, and thanks to that, we're able to have a real comparison discussion:
[ QUOTE ]
/elec also gets buildup. /thorns attacks do largely lethal damage, which is more resisted.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thorns get's Aim, which while it isn't build up, is still a decent damage boost and an awesome tohit buff. Furthermore, Thorns get's a ton of -defense attacks which means that after you start landing attacks with Aim activated, you'll be alot more likely to "continue" landing attacks even after Aim expires, which can substantially affect how much damage you put out on your target.
As far as the "lethal" damage goes, it doesn't really matter in pvp anymore, as all resists hover within about 3-5% of eachother (in zone) now anyways. So whether it's psi damage or lethal damage, it's all almost the same as far as "resistances" go. Damage type can help determine "somewhat" a situation when it comes to +defense sets, but that's what Aim plus your array of defense debuffs are for 
[ QUOTE ]
From Detailed info taken on test, these are the pvp damage numbers at level 50, unenhanced:
Electricity Assault:
C.Bolts: 115
C.Brawl: 125
Bolt: 173
Havoc: 190
Zapp: 303
Static: 96
T.Strike: 336
Thorns:
Darts: 138
Skewer: 208
Fling: 198
Impale: 236
Burst: 196
Trops: 125
Ripper: 227
Barrage: 216
[/ QUOTE ]
Great info, and are these the official figures currently on test? If so, then it hasn't supported the case of Elec>>>Thorns still, and here's why:
[ QUOTE ]
So while T.Strike does have a long activation time, it's an attack you'd use once someone was held anyways. Whereas your highest damaging attacks as /thorns (Impale, Ripper, Barrage) all have an act time of around 2 seconds, and you'd be using those as part of your attack chain. Elec's other attacks animate in about a second or less. That and /elecs snipe allows you to intentionally interrupt it to gain domination faster.
[/ QUOTE ]
Going off of the activation times for Thorns and plugging in the damage values you've pointed out above....that means that Thorns can actually achieve "higher" damage than Elec within the amount of time it takes Elec to pull off just "one" Thunder Strike.
[u]Thunder Strike[u] = 3.3 sec activation and = 336 dmg (base)
This means...that Thorns can use either of these attack combos and get roughly the "same" damage, and in less time in some cases (meaning that even a "3rd" attack could be firing off for more damage just as TS would be finishing).
[u]Darts[u] = 1.33 sec activation and = 138 dmg (base)
[u]Skewer[u] = 1.63 sec activation and = 208 dmg (base)
[u]TOTAL ACTIVATION TIME[u] = 2.96 seconds (.34 seconds faster than Elec)
[u]TOTAL DAMAGE[u] = 346 dmg (unenhanced)(that's 10 pts. more dmg than TS)
*As we can see, this chain provides even "more" damage than TS while also having a shorter activation time (which means a 3rd attack could be firing off for more dmg to this total). Half of this chain includes a ranged attack which has it's obvious uses as well, especially with the shorter durations of mez's these days in pvp.
[u]Thorny Darts[u] = 1.33 sec activation and = 138 dmg (base)
[u]Thorn Barrage[u] = 2 sec activation and = 216 dmg (base)
[u]TOTAL ACTIVATION TIME[u] = 3.3 sec (the exact same as TS, but ALL from safe range).
[u]TOTAL DAMAGE[u] = 424 dmg (unenhanced)(this is a whopping 88 pts more dmg than TS, and ALL from range!)
*This, imho, is a pretty large damage difference for roughly the "same" animation time if you ask me. What makes it even more appealing is that it can all be done at pure range, versus having to close into melee.
[u]Skewer[u] = 1.63 sec activation time and = 208 dmg (base)
[u]Ripper[u] = 2.17 sec activation time and = 227 dmg (base)
[u]TOTAL ACTIVATION TIME[u] = 3.8 sec (only 0.5 sec longer than TS)
[u]TOTAL DAMAGE[u] = 435 dmg (unenhanced)
*So while this chain is a tad bit longer to finish than TS, you can pull out almost 100 pts more damage with it. This chain is also pure melee, just like TS.
So anyways, there's a few examples of what Thorns has to offer, which from what I've gathered so far, actually makes it comparable to Elec in a pvp setting. Sure, once the damage value from Build Up is accounted some of those figures could change in favor of Elec, but Thorns still has Aim's dmg buff to help it as well, and it can't end up that far behind Elec in damage when viewing these stats. Granted Elec still has a pet, Sparky, but while he is very useful, he can't always be readily relied upon for damage.
Anwho, there's my thoughts on the Elec vs. Thorns debate so far. I'm not standing here saying that "Thorns >>> Elec 4 eva!!!" lol, I'm just adding some "scenarios" and such to the equation. I "also" want to know why the general concensus is that Thorns blows and Elec is so much better, because from where I stand right now, I just don't see it.
So, help the OP out, is he missing something?
I've pvped with an Ice/Thorns for many issues. It used to be my scrapper/stalker killer in the arena. Lots of things have changed since then practically every other issue some major changes come and u have to reslot and change builds/tactics/strategy.
If thorns sounds like it appeals to you make one and slot it up to its full potential with -Def IOs bring it to arena and duel some elec builds and see what the outcome is. The fun part of this game is everyone has their own theories and how they would build and play their toons so if thorns appeals to you make it your own and go for it.
[ QUOTE ]
I've pvped with an Ice/Thorns for many issues. It used to be my scrapper/stalker killer in the arena. Lots of things have changed since then practically every other issue some major changes come and u have to reslot and change builds/tactics/strategy.
If thorns sounds like it appeals to you make one and slot it up to its full potential with -Def IOs bring it to arena and duel some elec builds and see what the outcome is. The fun part of this game is everyone has their own theories and how they would build and play their toons so if thorns appeals to you make it your own and go for it.
[/ QUOTE ]
This... there was a time people used to say dark/cold sucked.. Heck I stomped one way back when with my ice/rad corr and after the fight we decided he'd be better off re-rolling. Unfortunately, I never saw him again to apologize for that bad advice. Things change and player A might struggle with a certain combo, while player B excels with it.
The two things I found to be total suck in thorns were:
1. Impale - but it has just been buffed for doms. tbh though I'd still like it buffed to a 10 or 12 sec attack.
2. Constant redraw when switching between primary and secondary.
-This used to be a huge annoyance as you'd literally be switching back and forth with each move to layer high enough mag to burn a tray of bf's. That isn't really the case any more. You only need to toss out one or two mez/knock every 15 seconds. So really, the redraw annoyance has been cut quite a bit too.
-Redraw in and of itself wouldn't be so bad if it didn't make you drop like a stone each time. Basically you hit a player with char and then go to cast thorn dart. (if you are in range) you hear ----shtlick----drop like a stone to the ground and THEN the power would cast. The result is often a lot more time grounded then the casting numbers seem to indicate.
Thorns is the best its ever been right now. It is still stuck with generally long casts on every power, whereas elec is only long on one power, so you'll still get rocked more often then ideal. But if you really want it then go for it.
Maybe you'll be the next Hans and make a unique combo become a legend.
Wow, This thread has sparked my interest and has made me want to re-roll my thought of a Fire/Thorns into a Grav/Thorns for PvP. Granted Grav is no Mind, but a pet that can use your ST Ranged hold is a nice plus... GL to the OP with your /Thorns quest, I say I'll have to side with Dark Master and his opinion on this one...
This is good stuff here, the discussion has gotten quite robust. The redraw sounds like a bit of a pain, but when you think about it, you only put the thorns away to CC people, thus they're a bit tied up while you drop like a rock during the redraw/cast time of your next attack. All the evidence seems to point to Thorns being equally as viable as Elec, so I'm going to go with it.
[ QUOTE ]
As far as the "lethal" damage goes, it doesn't really matter in pvp anymore, as all resists hover within about 3-5% of eachother (in zone) now anyways.
[/ QUOTE ]
Only sorta true when talking about squishies. When you start throwing melee classes in the lethal res becomes much more apparent.
Duel me.
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As far as the "lethal" damage goes, it doesn't really matter in pvp anymore, as all resists hover within about 3-5% of eachother (in zone) now anyways.
[/ QUOTE ]
Only sorta true when talking about squishies. When you start throwing melee classes in the lethal res becomes much more apparent.
[/ QUOTE ]
Somewhat, but even still, I don't find it all "that" apparent. For example, my ELA Brutes outside of pvp have somewhere well over 100% +res to Energy Damage, however while "in" a pvp zone, my +res to Energy Damage is a mere shadow of what it is in pve, sitting at only roughly 60-65% at best (maybe less..I'll have to double check. Definately not more than that though). For the most part, most resistances start to cap out just like Defense does, which is at about the 46-56% mark. It takes quite a bit to push them past those marks in pvp anymore. Even while Tier9'd, resistances and defenses only net minimal gain.
I'd say that the only exclusion from this is Psi damage. Yes, for the most part you "can" get "psi resistance" to be about equal to all other resistance types, and Psi will "also" cap out around the same 46-56% mark, however, tier9's (such as Unstoppable and PowerSurge) do no grant the same "universal resist" values that certain toggles like "Tough" from fighting do. This means that when you pop your tier9 for more resistance ALL of your other resistances will see a minor increase (roughly 12-18%) accross the board on all damage types, all that is, except Psi damage. So until tier9's are taken into account, [u]all damage types are roughly equal[u] in pvp these days, and even while tier9'd Psi only pulls ahead by a slight margin over other damage types.
Keep in mind that DR hits tohitbuff very hard right now. Aim is still *better* than buidup for hitting things, but it's not nearly as much of a difference as in PvE. Yes I know that none of the final numbers scale in a really linear way, but even so...
Yes DR affects almost everything, but it does not do so equally. THB seems to have made it very high up on DR's $#!+ list.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
[ QUOTE ]
Ah, see, now biff is getting alot warmer to the explanation that the OP wanted I think lol, and thanks to that, we're able to have a real comparison discussion:
[ QUOTE ]
/elec also gets buildup. /thorns attacks do largely lethal damage, which is more resisted.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thorns get's Aim, which while it isn't build up, is still a decent damage boost and an awesome tohit buff. Furthermore, Thorns get's a ton of -defense attacks which means that after you start landing attacks with Aim activated, you'll be alot more likely to "continue" landing attacks even after Aim expires, which can substantially affect how much damage you put out on your target.
As far as the "lethal" damage goes, it doesn't really matter in pvp anymore, as all resists hover within about 3-5% of eachother (in zone) now anyways. So whether it's psi damage or lethal damage, it's all almost the same as far as "resistances" go. Damage type can help determine "somewhat" a situation when it comes to +defense sets, but that's what Aim plus your array of defense debuffs are for
[ QUOTE ]
From Detailed info taken on test, these are the pvp damage numbers at level 50, unenhanced:
Electricity Assault:
C.Bolts: 115
C.Brawl: 125
Bolt: 173
Havoc: 190
Zapp: 303
Static: 96
T.Strike: 336
Thorns:
Darts: 138
Skewer: 208
Fling: 198
Impale: 236
Burst: 196
Trops: 125
Ripper: 227
Barrage: 216
[/ QUOTE ]
Great info, and are these the official figures currently on test? If so, then it hasn't supported the case of Elec>>>Thorns still, and here's why:
[ QUOTE ]
So while T.Strike does have a long activation time, it's an attack you'd use once someone was held anyways. Whereas your highest damaging attacks as /thorns (Impale, Ripper, Barrage) all have an act time of around 2 seconds, and you'd be using those as part of your attack chain. Elec's other attacks animate in about a second or less. That and /elecs snipe allows you to intentionally interrupt it to gain domination faster.
[/ QUOTE ]
Going off of the activation times for Thorns and plugging in the damage values you've pointed out above....that means that Thorns can actually achieve "higher" damage than Elec within the amount of time it takes Elec to pull off just "one" Thunder Strike.
[u]Thunder Strike[u] = 3.3 sec activation and = 336 dmg (base)
This means...that Thorns can use either of these attack combos and get roughly the "same" damage, and in less time in some cases (meaning that even a "3rd" attack could be firing off for more damage just as TS would be finishing).
[u]Darts[u] = 1.33 sec activation and = 138 dmg (base)
[u]Skewer[u] = 1.63 sec activation and = 208 dmg (base)
[u]TOTAL ACTIVATION TIME[u] = 2.96 seconds (.34 seconds faster than Elec)
[u]TOTAL DAMAGE[u] = 346 dmg (unenhanced)(that's 10 pts. more dmg than TS)
*As we can see, this chain provides even "more" damage than TS while also having a shorter activation time (which means a 3rd attack could be firing off for more dmg to this total). Half of this chain includes a ranged attack which has it's obvious uses as well, especially with the shorter durations of mez's these days in pvp.
[u]Thorny Darts[u] = 1.33 sec activation and = 138 dmg (base)
[u]Thorn Barrage[u] = 2 sec activation and = 216 dmg (base)
[u]TOTAL ACTIVATION TIME[u] = 3.3 sec (the exact same as TS, but ALL from safe range).
[u]TOTAL DAMAGE[u] = 424 dmg (unenhanced)(this is a whopping 88 pts more dmg than TS, and ALL from range!)
*This, imho, is a pretty large damage difference for roughly the "same" animation time if you ask me. What makes it even more appealing is that it can all be done at pure range, versus having to close into melee.
[u]Skewer[u] = 1.63 sec activation time and = 208 dmg (base)
[u]Ripper[u] = 2.17 sec activation time and = 227 dmg (base)
[u]TOTAL ACTIVATION TIME[u] = 3.8 sec (only 0.5 sec longer than TS)
[u]TOTAL DAMAGE[u] = 435 dmg (unenhanced)
*So while this chain is a tad bit longer to finish than TS, you can pull out almost 100 pts more damage with it. This chain is also pure melee, just like TS.
So anyways, there's a few examples of what Thorns has to offer, which from what I've gathered so far, actually makes it comparable to Elec in a pvp setting. Sure, once the damage value from Build Up is accounted some of those figures could change in favor of Elec, but Thorns still has Aim's dmg buff to help it as well, and it can't end up that far behind Elec in damage when viewing these stats. Granted Elec still has a pet, Sparky, but while he is very useful, he can't always be readily relied upon for damage.
Anwho, there's my thoughts on the Elec vs. Thorns debate so far. I'm not standing here saying that "Thorns >>> Elec 4 eva!!!" lol, I'm just adding some "scenarios" and such to the equation. I "also" want to know why the general concensus is that Thorns blows and Elec is so much better, because from where I stand right now, I just don't see it.
So, help the OP out, is he missing something?
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Ah, I actually totally overlooked that thorns had -def, which does give it some appeal. Some would suggest doms to take Earth/ since THAT has -def making everything easier, or Mind/ since its psi based and easier to hit with.
As far as the animation times, I did kinda realize that thorns would still be getting better DPA than elec, despite the huge damage T.Strike throws out, just that you're using slightly longer animating attacks more often, therefore either standing in one spot for around 6 seconds to throw out your 3 biggest hitting attacks or at least making it easier for some melee guy to close range while you're rooted during those three.
That and Dom's base damage got boosted, meaning I'd think you'd get a bigger return from Build up than you did before, where as before using Domination then Buildup would most certainly start dipping into DR cutoff range; you don't have to worry about that anymore.
Hell, I'd roll a /thorns just to see what it could do, grav/thorns sounds hella fun. Just trying to come up with reasons why so many doms took/take /elec. I'd actually be interested to see if /energy is more attractive over /elec come issue 15; both their big hitters do around the same damage, just /energy gets Power Boost which can turn some holds in some instances into 10 second long ones
Doms look like fun and I want to try one out, I would like a build that's good in both PvP and PvE, though PvP gets preference if there has to be a tradeoff. Decided on Mind for primary. I'm just wondering why I don't see many builds clamoring for /Thorns for PvP, because on paper it looks like an incredible set for it. It has 4 very hard hitting medium and long range attacks, no need to even go into melee, unlike /Elec for example. It has relatively long activation times but due to the way PvP works now, it increases the damage in proportion to that. It has a useful secondary effect in -defense, which also helps by being able to put some good procs into it. It also has Aim.
/Elec seems to be the most popular secondary for PvP. It stacks up well but seems to have you depending on going into melee to do serious damage via Thunderstrike. It's arguable that Mind provides a good ranged damage chain on its own but with secondaries getting buffed next issue, I think I'd rather have some more ranged damage in my secondary.
On the other hand, I know that things on paper don't always translate to working in practice. What would you recommend for me? Keep in mind I'm not a big fan of being a 1-trick pony and relying on one skill for mega damage, especially when I can throw 2 things at the same time as a /thorns that do just slightly less damage in the same amount of time and from range, and recharge 3x as fast. Is /Elec overrated, and is /Thorns good in PvP especially after next Issue? Express your opinion.