That's just it though, the AT is not designed to be team-oriented unlike most defenders.
Off topic, but people really should give Trick Arrow more attention. I found it to be a BLAST. In fact, until I made one and got serious with it I really had no idea how powerful it truly was.
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
TA is pretty fun. My TA/A is level 46 and I don't refer to him as a Defender. I view him as a mini blaster that has a few debuffs ;p
A bunch of 50s and too many alts...
Neo's Guide To Thugs/Storm (need to update it)
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Questions about Fire/Rad? Just ask!
With all this TA talk, we're now getting off topic.
Anyhow in reference to the original post, I'd take either and would be happy with either on a team. I enjoy playing both and they both play differently. Shields and a AoE +def is only part of what each set offers.
My last post still stands. *shrugs*
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
On many team encounters this is how complicated each set is:
cold
buff all friends with 4 min shields, toggle up fog, cast sleet on each spawn (infrig, benumb, snow) are largely useless in spawn to spawn play. Heat loss is nice, but the uber rech means it isn't part of 'regular' play, but cast it when needed; it is great.
FF
buff all friends with 4 min shields. Toggle up disp bubble, cast repulsion bomb on each spawn. (all the other powers are largely useless in spawn to spawn play).
Really the game is so easy in full teams that neither set is very involving.
That said sleet is really really good and is reason enough to go cold over FF imo.
QR
Hi thread.
Cold > FF
I love my Cold/Ice Defender and he's perfect for the ITF, as a teammate. My favorite combo is 3 Luck Inspirations, 3-4 Reds and then PBU + Sleet + Heatloss + AIM + Ice Storm and Blizzard. It's perfect for the Towers on the ITF, especially when there's 1-2 tanks/brutes to gather up 30+ critters.
I die alot, but who cares. 
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cast sleet on each spawn (infrig, benumb, snow) are largely useless in spawn to spawn play
[/ QUOTE ]
Let me get this straight, Sleet & Snow Storm are useless from spawn to spawn? Really?
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Heat loss is nice, but the uber rech means it isn't part of 'regular' play, but cast it when needed; it is great.
[/ QUOTE ]
So 90 sec up (of infinite end), 30 sec down isn't good enough for you? I guess Recovery Aura is even less part of "regular" play.
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cast repulsion bomb on each spawn.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, much more useful from spawn to spawn, I'm sure.
Note, I'm not trying to knock FF, but if this is how you view the two sets, you really don't know how to fully utilize Cold.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
<QR>
cold>>>>>>>FF
I play mostly endgame content (ITF/STF/PvP) so YMMV. If I could have one of each I'd probably still want 2 colds.
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
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The powers in FF need some thought. For the powers that you listed, you don't keep on using them except for repulsion bomb.
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So you admit the FF set is a twiddle your thumbs set in between shielding and repulsion bombs.
[/ QUOTE ]Which gives you more time to fire off your blasts from your secondary. Nothing quite like hitting Aim, Soul Drain, <insert nuke here> in a bit more safety than many defenders get for it to make you grin. (Better option, with FF/Ice, hit Aim, Soul Drain in your current mob, then Ice Storm/Blizzard the next mob so they're already dead when you finish the current one.)
FF is the set for people who want more time to attack.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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I don't think you've played a high level Cold/ Defender.
With the shield duration being quite long, Heatloss having a long recharge and only using Benumb on really tough opponents; there's plenty of time to attack for a Cold/.
I use Sleet + Ice Storm almost every mob, not to mention spamming my 3 attacks and Infrigidate on bosses.
Nah, I'm going to disagree with you.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you've played a high level Cold/ Defender.
With the shield duration being quite long, Heatloss having a long recharge and only using Benumb on really tough opponents; there's plenty of time to attack for a Cold/.
I use Sleet + Ice Storm almost every mob, not to mention spamming my 3 attacks and Infrigidate on bosses.
Nah, I'm going to disagree with you.
[/ QUOTE ]So, Turbo's entire point about FF having nothing to do while you're using Cold constantly was utterly full of [censored], then?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
|
I'm not getting into your bickering match with Turbo. I was stating why you were wrong about Cold/ not having time to attack.
I prefer Cold/ over FF/ and that's all that matters to me.
I think Turbo's given up. Then again, I don't particularly care.
I like Cold and FF equally, for different reasons. I've stated my reasons and stand behind them as I've yet to see something that really sways me away from either set. They are both fun and enjoyable to me, and that's all I really care about.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
I want the hour of my life back I spent reading this.
Also, I tend to build my characters to not die when I'm playing them and there's no defender around. This means when there is a defender around, the difference between +30% def and +20% def probably isn't that big a deal. One way or another, a defender is not giving a naked character mitigation, they're layering mitigation.
In this regard, I find FF extremely lacking. It's not very exciting and a large body of its powers seem to be dedicated to keeping bad players alive the way bad healers think their powers are supposed to. Cold has tricksy stuff, interesting looking debuffs, and a freezing rain analogue, which can bask in the radiated love I have for Freezing Rain.
Look, the biggest complaints that have come up in this whole thread, repeatedly, is that cold is ugly and forcefield isn't 'as bad as that.' There's also something about Turbo having numbers cited at him/her, then no longer posting, not even a 'Oh. Huh, well, I learned something to day. Doesn't invalidate the rest of my points, though perhaps my tone was unreasonable.' kind of post which would do a lot to their credit.
I might as well add my opinion (just an opinion). Ive leveled a FF to 35, and Ive leveled a cold to 50. Ive played with both sets quite a bit and through respecs have used every power in each set.
Cold blows FF away. Theres a reason one never made it past 35, and the other breezed right through and became my first 50. It wasnt play style. It wasnt because it was the new shiny. It was because it was just that much better. With cold shields I could support a team just as well as my FF. While the defense numbers may have been a little less they were more than enough when layered with their own mitigation. Also that +30 % damage to nearly every person on the team (a well placed sleet) made a heck of a lot more difference than the additional defense would have. Plus most of those mobs in sleet are flopping around on the ground and not doing damage. FF is overkill I think in a lot of cases. Most of those cases coming in the 30+ game when characters become more well rounded. Which is likely why my FF stopped at 35.
A lot of the TF and late game content is EBs and AVs. Cold is miles better than FF when dealing with hard targets. Lets be honest. That is usually the ONLY time a team of 50s is in danger usually. Cold debuffs typically make those AV fights a lot less dangerous.
Honestly, the biggest advantage FF has isnt even the minor additional defense. Its the AOE mez protection. That is pretty sexy. I would argue that the stealth of Arctic fog counters that somewhat but not completely. So when we are talking the defense powers, FF is ahead. Once you get past the shields and the main toggle, Cold has a ton of debuffs with some nice Buffs, FF has knockback basically. Im sorry but I wouldnt trade all the rest of FFs powers for Sleet. No Cold ever would. Thats why it isnt even a fair comparison in my book. Sleet is just that good, and that excludes all the other great powers in the cold set.
Knockback is not awesome. It never will be. It can control a chaotic situation. It can make a controlled situation chaotic. While good in the hands of a skilled user, it is absolutely horrible in the hands of an unskilled user. That isnt a play style choice. Thats a well known fact. If I feel the need to control a mob, will lay down a sleet and let them flop around like fishes. It doesnt require skill, it doesnt require coordination with the team, it doesnt require a wall or object, and the fishes die 30% faster. It controls just as well and is a ton easier to execute and it works in all terrains.
Did I mention I love sleet?
/e popcorn
[ QUOTE ]
I might as well add my opinion (just an opinion). Ive leveled a FF to 35, and Ive leveled a cold to 50. Ive played with both sets quite a bit and through respecs have used every power in each set.
Cold blows FF away. Theres a reason one never made it past 35, and the other breezed right through and became my first 50. It wasnt play style. It wasnt because it was the new shiny. It was because it was just that much better. With cold shields I could support a team just as well as my FF. While the defense numbers may have been a little less they were more than enough when layered with their own mitigation. Also that +30 % damage to nearly every person on the team (a well placed sleet) made a heck of a lot more difference than the additional defense would have. Plus most of those mobs in sleet are flopping around on the ground and not doing damage. FF is overkill I think in a lot of cases. Most of those cases coming in the 30+ game when characters become more well rounded. Which is likely why my FF stopped at 35.
A lot of the TF and late game content is EBs and AVs. Cold is miles better than FF when dealing with hard targets. Lets be honest. That is usually the ONLY time a team of 50s is in danger usually. Cold debuffs typically make those AV fights a lot less dangerous.
Honestly, the biggest advantage FF has isnt even the minor additional defense. Its the AOE mez protection. That is pretty sexy. I would argue that the stealth of Arctic fog counters that somewhat but not completely. So when we are talking the defense powers, FF is ahead. Once you get past the shields and the main toggle, Cold has a ton of debuffs with some nice Buffs, FF has knockback basically. Im sorry but I wouldnt trade all the rest of FFs powers for Sleet. No Cold ever would. Thats why it isnt even a fair comparison in my book. Sleet is just that good, and that excludes all the other great powers in the cold set.
Knockback is not awesome. It never will be. It can control a chaotic situation. It can make a controlled situation chaotic. While good in the hands of a skilled user, it is absolutely horrible in the hands of an unskilled user. That isnt a play style choice. Thats a well known fact. If I feel the need to control a mob, will lay down a sleet and let them flop around like fishes. It doesnt require skill, it doesnt require coordination with the team, it doesnt require a wall or object, and the fishes die 30% faster. It controls just as well and is a ton easier to execute and it works in all terrains.
Did I mention I love sleet?
[/ QUOTE ]
<eye roll>
Bye, everybody!
*Champion*
[ QUOTE ]
I might as well add my opinion (just an opinion). Ive leveled a FF to 35, and Ive leveled a cold to 50. Ive played with both sets quite a bit and through respecs have used every power in each set.
Cold blows FF away. Theres a reason one never made it past 35, and the other breezed right through and became my first 50. It wasnt play style. It wasnt because it was the new shiny. It was because it was just that much better. With cold shields I could support a team just as well as my FF. While the defense numbers may have been a little less they were more than enough when layered with their own mitigation. Also that +30 % damage to nearly every person on the team (a well placed sleet) made a heck of a lot more difference than the additional defense would have. Plus most of those mobs in sleet are flopping around on the ground and not doing damage. FF is overkill I think in a lot of cases. Most of those cases coming in the 30+ game when characters become more well rounded. Which is likely why my FF stopped at 35.
A lot of the TF and late game content is EBs and AVs. Cold is miles better than FF when dealing with hard targets. Lets be honest. That is usually the ONLY time a team of 50s is in danger usually. Cold debuffs typically make those AV fights a lot less dangerous.
Honestly, the biggest advantage FF has isnt even the minor additional defense. Its the AOE mez protection. That is pretty sexy. I would argue that the stealth of Arctic fog counters that somewhat but not completely. So when we are talking the defense powers, FF is ahead. Once you get past the shields and the main toggle, Cold has a ton of debuffs with some nice Buffs, FF has knockback basically. Im sorry but I wouldnt trade all the rest of FFs powers for Sleet. No Cold ever would. Thats why it isnt even a fair comparison in my book. Sleet is just that good, and that excludes all the other great powers in the cold set.
Knockback is not awesome. It never will be. It can control a chaotic situation. It can make a controlled situation chaotic. While good in the hands of a skilled user, it is absolutely horrible in the hands of an unskilled user. That isnt a play style choice. Thats a well known fact. If I feel the need to control a mob, will lay down a sleet and let them flop around like fishes. It doesnt require skill, it doesnt require coordination with the team, it doesnt require a wall or object, and the fishes die 30% faster. It controls just as well and is a ton easier to execute and it works in all terrains.
Did I mention I love sleet?
[/ QUOTE ]
There are some good points in here.
As a cold and FF player I'd like to add my vote to the cold list. In situations where team composition is an important factor it is my opinion that cold simply brings more to the table that myself and the teams I run with find useful.
If FF bubbles provided some resistance to defense debuffs then the debate would be a bit more interesting for me.
I'm wondering if we'll be able to change the color of any of the shields/bubbles...
A bunch of 50s and too many alts...
Neo's Guide To Thugs/Storm (need to update it)
www.facebook.com/bbirgephotos
Questions about Fire/Rad? Just ask!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
cast sleet on each spawn (infrig, benumb, snow) are largely useless in spawn to spawn play
[/ QUOTE ]
Let me get this straight, Sleet & Snow Storm are useless from spawn to spawn? Really?
[ QUOTE ]
Heat loss is nice, but the uber rech means it isn't part of 'regular' play, but cast it when needed; it is great.
[/ QUOTE ]
So 90 sec up (of infinite end), 30 sec down isn't good enough for you? I guess Recovery Aura is even less part of "regular" play.
[ QUOTE ]
cast repulsion bomb on each spawn.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, much more useful from spawn to spawn, I'm sure.
Note, I'm not trying to knock FF, but if this is how you view the two sets, you really don't know how to fully utilize Cold.
[/ QUOTE ]
Did you even read the post you were responding to?
How do you read > use sleet on every spawn < and then state that I think it is useless?
Heat loss is a 360 base rech, that means 180 with full slotting. 90 up, 30 down is a solid IO build with haste, is that the baseline standard?
So ya casting it once every 3 MINUTES is the definition of not being an every spawn or "regularly used" power.
Maybe read what I wrote again, I wasn't talking about how the sets are used in tough situations, or solo. I was talking about solid 8 man spawn to spawn crushing.
If you are doing much more than casting sleet before attacking you are wasting your time (In addition to keeping everyone buffed and arc fog going). Then again I see some people using infrig+benumb on luts 
maybe you're one of them.
Ya know my favorite part about Sleet? Slotting an Achilles Heel Chance for -res.
[ QUOTE ]
How do you read > use sleet on every spawn < and then state that I think it is useless?
[/ QUOTE ]
You tell me. You wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
cast sleet on each spawn (infrig, benumb, snow) are largely useless in spawn to spawn play
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you should be a bit more clear in your own words which of those powers you considered useless? Just the ones in parenthesis? So fine, you're not quite as idiotic to think Sleet is useless. Congratulations, you've graduated 2nd grade and I apologize for not being able to decipher your post earlier. Not to impugn your grammar, but try some commas for clarity next time, because your OP really read like you thought Sleet was part of the useless group.
Now, tell me why Snow Storm is useless.
[ QUOTE ]
Heat loss is a 360 base rech, that means 180 with full slotting. 90 up, 30 down is a solid IO build with haste, is that the baseline standard?
[/ QUOTE ]
What are you going to prioritize Heal Loss with over recharge? You should be ED capped on the recharge, preferably with End Mod sets. In my own build, w/just 3 slots I have +53% accuracy and just a 26 sec downtime when Hasten is up. Even w/just SOs, 1~2 Acc, 3 Rech and maybe an End Mod should be the standard slotting. And why would any sensible Cold defender not take Hasten? You might not want Benumb every fight, but for the fights yo want it for, you damn well want it coming up as fast as possible, not to mention for Sleet & Heat Loss (and Frostwork for those who take it) that are greatly aided by Hasten.
90 up, 30 down is quite reasonable. And those 30 sec start w/a full end bar, so it's not like everyone has to stand still for the interim. Even if you disagree with all that, you're still talking about a power w/a base recharge a lot faster than Recovery Aura. Therefore, if you don't consider Heat Loss not part of "regular play", whatever that means, that means you would consider RA even less a part of regular play. Downright useless, that Recovery Aura! 
Your disdain for Infrig & Benumb is also remarkable. Of course Benumb is usually saved for EBs and above, but why wouldn't you want to Infrig a boss? Or do you only fight minions & lts on your teams? What exactly do you do in your capacity as a Cold defender anyway, put shields & Fog up, cast Sleet and twiddle your thumbs? I assume you at least throw in an attack or two, but you might wanna try putting up Snow Storm first, maybe hitting a boss w/Infrig, before giving your best blaster impersonation.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
[ QUOTE ]
Of course Benumb is usually saved for EBs and above, but why wouldn't you want to Infrig a boss?... I assume you at least throw in an attack or two, but you might wanna try putting up Snow Storm first, maybe hitting a boss w/Infrig, before giving your best blaster impersonation.
[/ QUOTE ]
If it's been in sleet, or on a decent team these days, the def debuff is not a draw. The -recharge is not a draw. The only draw is that you could put an achilles in it, and even then it's only worth pressing the button for a really hard target.
Most of the time, hitting them in the face with a blast is a better use of end. I think I dropped infrig on my latest build - there just weren't enough hard targets to use it on and the effects weren't as desirable as more damage.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How do you read > use sleet on every spawn < and then state that I think it is useless?
[/ QUOTE ]
You tell me. You wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
cast sleet on each spawn (infrig, benumb, snow) are largely useless in spawn to spawn play
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you should be a bit more clear in your own words which of those powers you considered useless? Just the ones in parenthesis? So fine, you're not quite as idiotic to think Sleet is useless. Congratulations, you've graduated 2nd grade and I apologize for not being able to decipher your post earlier. Not to impugn your grammar, but try some commas for clarity next time, because your OP really read like you thought Sleet was part of the useless group.
[/ QUOTE ]
OP
"On many team encounters this is how complicated each set is:
cold
buff all friends with 4 min shields, toggle up fog, cast sleet on each spawn (infrig, benumb, snow) are largely useless in spawn to spawn play."
Ya it did need punctuation between "each spawn" and the bracket. But the way you read it you may as well suggest that I said the buffs and aura were useless too
It really wasn't hard to read OR understand. ESPECIALLY if you bothered to read the comments about FF and then apply some reading comprehension back onto what was stated. I did miss the punctuation though, my bad. But it pretty clearly is NOT suggesting that sleet is useless.
And even if it was the very last line of my OP says... wait for it....
"That said sleet is really really good and is reason enough to go cold over FF imo. "
(Read a comment to completion before going on the prowl. My friendly advice for the day).
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Now, tell me why Snow Storm is useless.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's a fine power, just not worth casting in spawn to spawn action. It is awesome in a protracted fight, but that isn't what I was talking about now is it?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Heat loss is a 360 base rech, that means 180 with full slotting. 90 up, 30 down is a solid IO build with haste, is that the baseline standard?
[/ QUOTE ]
What are you going to prioritize Heal Loss with over recharge? You should be ED capped on the recharge, preferably with End Mod sets. In my own build, w/just 3 slots I have +53% accuracy and just a 26 sec downtime when Hasten is up. Even w/just SOs, 1~2 Acc, 3 Rech and maybe an End Mod should be the standard slotting. And why would any sensible Cold defender not take Hasten? You might not want Benumb every fight, but for the fights yo want it for, you damn well want it coming up as fast as possible, not to mention for Sleet & Heat Loss (and Frostwork for those who take it) that are greatly aided by Hasten.
90 up, 30 down is quite reasonable. And those 30 sec start w/a full end bar, so it's not like everyone has to stand still for the interim. Even if you disagree with all that, you're still talking about a power w/a base recharge a lot faster than Recovery Aura. Therefore, if you don't consider Heat Loss not part of "regular play", whatever that means, that means you would consider RA even less a part of regular play. Downright useless, that Recovery Aura!
[/ QUOTE ]
Hasten is a great power, but it should never be considered the base line. I personally consider hasten and 60% global rech the standard for pretty much all my builds, but that isn't applicable or appropriate to everyone.
A 120 sec rech of HL indicates 200% recharge slotting. You get 96% from slotting rech, you still need 104%. That is a decent IO build exactly like I SAID.
You're right I don't consider RA's part of a spawn to spawn power selection. They are amazing powers just like HL, but the recharge means they aren't up every spawn, or even every second spawn, or even every third spawn. They should be cast when appropriate though JUST like HL (oh ya I said that already too ).
[ QUOTE ]
Your disdain for Infrig & Benumb is also remarkable. Of course Benumb is usually saved for EBs and above, but why wouldn't you want to Infrig a boss? Or do you only fight minions & lts on your teams? What exactly do you do in your capacity as a Cold defender anyway, put shields & Fog up, cast Sleet and twiddle your thumbs? I assume you at least throw in an attack or two, but you might wanna try putting up Snow Storm first, maybe hitting a boss w/Infrig, before giving your best blaster impersonation.
[/ QUOTE ]
I never gave any indication that I disdain benumb or infrig, but they are useless in spawn to spawn action on a full team. They are also amazing powers that are vital to solo, small team, AV's, or tough encounters and I never said otherwise. But they are not useful in the specific scenario I was talking about, which is full teams rapidly moving from spawn to spawn.
I'm not sure if I can break it down to any simpler terms.
See how much clearer you can be w/a bit of effort? 
I really don't have any problems with what you just said. I disagree with a few points, esp how easy it is to get HL's recharge down to around 30 sec, and what your definition of "spawn to spawn" means. I play on a lot of high DPS teams (not surprising if my "baseline" is as high as you seem to think it is), but also pugs, and on both kinds of teams and in between, I find more things to do w/Cold than you do (and certainly more than w/FF, which is the whole point of this thread). That's fine; we're talking differences in playstyle. It's just what you initially wrote (and the way you wrote it) that I found out of line.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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I can't get into FF. I had one in the mid 30s that could softcap people, but it was SO boring compared to other sets. I deleted the toon in favor of others and don't regret a thing.
I could see having more fun with a bot/ff mm though.
[/ QUOTE ]
More fun with a bot/ff MM? I consider MMs to be tops for more boring AT personally, I feel like I'm not doing anything at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have a mid 40's Bot/FF that is possibly the most boring character I have ever played.
Buff bots, they buff each other. Make them aggressive, go eat a sandwich. Solo's like a champ, takes little to no effort or interaction. Zzzzzzz . . .