Damage Procs in Damage Auras???

A quick question on damage procs in damage auras.

I've heard people say that it has a "chance for" every 10 seconds, but is the "chance for" rolled every time an enemy comes within range (for that enemy specifically) or is it just every 10 seconds, regardless of the number of targets in range? (and then rolls for each target, at once, on that 10 second mark)

The resaon i ask is because I'm thinking of doing a big overhaul on a Spines/Dark, putting the 3 possible 'chance fors' in both of the damage auras (but saving the Armageddon proc for spines burst)
the thinking here is, run into a mob, and then at least one should fire straight away, (if not more) and I can follow up with Spine Burst and they should all fall down.

But if it's every 10 seconds, regardless of when targets come within range, then this might not be a good idea,
(it's no good if it automatically fires just before I engage the mob, and then a full 10 seconds later, when there's only stragglers left anyway)

Anyway, does anyone know how this works?

It's a chance every ten seconds, regardless if enemies are in range or not. You have no control over when those PROCs will have a chance to go off unless you sit there and wait 10 seconds.

When inventions were introduced, I got every excited about the prospect of turning CoF into a 2nd damage aura. I placed a Glimpse of the Abyss 20% chance for Psi damage in CoF and then tracked the damage via Hero stats. After ~10 hours of testing (usually in 2-3 hour increments), I found the PROC contributed an additional 0.01% to my over all damage. That's rounding up.

IMHO, the 10 second rule pretty much kills any utility of damage PROCs in damage aura. I do not recommend them for damage or mez auras. I wish they make these go by activation times, or at least lower to interval. 10 seconds is just ridiculously useless.

It's 20% pet 10s per ENEMY.

When the proc triggers, it hits that enemy. Every 10s, every enemy gets a chance to be hit - not, as your wording suggets, you get a 20% chance to hit every enemy in range.

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It's 20% pet 10s per ENEMY.

When the proc triggers, it hits that enemy. Every 10s, every enemy gets a chance to be hit - not, as your wording suggets, you get a 20% chance to hit every enemy in range.

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Sorry, not seeing the distinction you're making.

Reality:

"Okay, ten second's up! *rolls* You get hit. *rolls* you don't *rolls* you don't *rolls* you don't *rolls* You do. See you in ten seconds!"

Post:

"Okay, ten second's up. *rolls* Yup, you all get hit. See you in ten seconds."

Sorry, still not seeing it.

You are suggesting my post implied the 20% chance was on every target vs 20% chance per target? Not seeing where I implied that.

Mind you, I'm not debating your point. You seem to agree with me. Just not seeing where you felt my post was misleading.

20% chance to hit * dmg * seconds per tick/10 = added dps, or whaztever.

ie, my Deathshroud calc a while ago = .2 * 71 * 2/10 = suck.

Here's a question..

What if the mobs run in and out of the damage aura repeatedly during the 10 seconds?

Does the system remember them or does it reset each time they re-enter the aura?

And how do these AoE procs work in a click to activate power? Say I had a PBAOE power with a 4 second cooldown and 1 second activation time.

Would the proc potentially go off every time I click the power vs. every mob in range or would it have a hidden 10 second cooldown before it could attempt to proc again?

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What if the mobs run in and out of the damage aura repeatedly during the 10 seconds?

Does the system remember them or does it reset each time they re-enter the aura?

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I simply checks the proc for every target for the first activation after the 10 second waiting period. It doesn't have to bother tracking targets like that. It just checks the individual activation cycles.

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And how do these AoE procs work in a click to activate power? Say I had a PBAOE power with a 4 second cooldown and 1 second activation time.

Would the proc potentially go off every time I click the power vs. every mob in range or would it have a hidden 10 second cooldown before it could attempt to proc again?

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Straight damage procs in click powers check every activation. They have no cool down.

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20% chance to hit * dmg * seconds per tick/10 = added dps, or whaztever.

ie, my Deathshroud calc a while ago = .2 * 71 * 2/10 = suck.

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Unless something changed, or there was a clarifycation somewhere I am unaware of, that formula should be incorrect. The tick rate of the power should have no affect on this.

EDIT: So while agree with you that it sucks. I'm just clarifying it sucks to a greater degree than you are suggesting

It was understanding that every ten seconds, the PROC has a 20% chance to go off on each target. Each target will get a separate role. How often the toggle tick is not factored in.

I would be thrilled if my information is incorrect.

From ParagonWiki
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Procs require the power they are in to be activated in order to work. In a click power, the go off once with every click. In a passive power or active toggle, they continuously pulse on once every 10 seconds per target. Certain pseudo-pet powers will inherit the proc and if they fire off for a set duration, the Proc has a chance to pulse several times (once every 10 seconds) during that period.

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Here's a question..

What if the mobs run in and out of the damage aura repeatedly during the 10 seconds?

Does the system remember them or does it reset each time they re-enter the aura?

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Keep in mind the 10 second rule only applies to PROCs in Toggles (and technically auto powers, but that's never relevant).

As I understand it it works like this.

Seconds
1
2
3
4
5
6
6
8
9
10 Target check finds 3 mobs. 20% to mob 1, 20% to mob 2, 20% to mob 3.
11
12
14
15
16
17
18
19
20 Target check finds no mobs. PROC wasted.
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30 Target check finds 2 mobs. 20% mob 1, 20% mob 2

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You are suggesting my post implied the 20% chance was on every target vs 20% chance per target? Not seeing where I implied that.

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Not yours. Reyne's.

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and then at least one should fire straight away, (if not more)

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You are suggesting my post implied the 20% chance was on every target vs 20% chance per target? Not seeing where I implied that.

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Not yours. Reyne's.

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and then at least one should fire straight away, (if not more)

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AHHH!! My apologies, you used quick reply. I misunderstood it to be a reply to my post.

Yeah, my apologies.

Also, I did the number crunch sometime ago. Scider proc in Icicles came out to ~30% added damage.

Thankyou, both of you, thats pretty much what I was afraid of.

(and sorry for confusinon with my post, I'm aware it rolls the 'tohit' individually, just wasn't sure how to phrase the whole question so it made sense)

Thanks again guys

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EDIT: So while agree with you that it sucks. I'm just clarifying it sucks to a greater degree than you are suggesting

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Way to lower the bar, Des.

I have the GW chance for psi proc in my plant/rad troller's choking cloud. Since it isn't a dmg aura, I can tell when it takes affect. I notice it takes affect often. As far as an exact number of times, I'm not sure. But my question is why wouldn't the dmg aura be as often as the mezz aura? I'm thinking the acc check could be reason but I'm not certain.

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But my question is why wouldn't the dmg aura be as often as the mezz aura?

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The devs specifically programmed in a 10 second cooldown period for procs in toggles and passive powers. If it weren't in there, toggles like RttC and Invincibility (which have an activation rate of 1 seconds) would be able to deal damage greater than the actual damage auras (.2*71.8=14.36 damage per target per second; Blazing aura is 13.76 damage every 2 seconds). Damage auras (which have an activation rate of 2 seconds) would be able to increase their damage by more than double, beyond ED and the damage cap, with a single slot (.2*71.8=14.36 damage per activation period; 14.36>13.76). It was to prevent the procs from becoming the only thing worth slotting in toggles.

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But my question is why wouldn't the dmg aura be as often as the mezz aura?

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As far as I can tell, the frequency would be the same, every 10 seconds. Keep in mind, my comments are specifically geared towards scrappers and damage auras. Depending on playstyle, a scrapper damage aura will out damage every other attack (Throw Spines is the only exception I am aware of.) This grossly over shadows the damage contribution of the PROCs in toggles.

On a build that does little damage, a PROC in a an aura would make a more signifcant contribution, even though the actual damage output remains the same. Consider how much more valuable Sands of Mu is to some controller builds vs any scrapper build. By the same token, a high damage controller build (say Fire/Kin) would probably not benefit much from damage PROCs in toggles.

I had a few damage procs slotted in auras before, all that fancy math aside, it was pretty much useless. The damage is low and most important of all, 10 seconds is too long for a scrapper to let a bad guy live...

Despite my penchant for number crunching, I've never done the math on procs for damage auras. Why? Because I did extensive "live" testing using Herostats and at least for Mud Pots, a single proc consistently returned about 32% of base damage over time (was 16% of my ED capped damage, out of Granite). That comes out to more or less an SO's worth of damage, so if your damage aura is unslotted, slotting a single dam SO or a single proc is almost a wash. If you're already capped for damage, adding a proc effectively makes it go over ED cap. I can't see why anyone would this this wasn't a great thing.

Mind you, as stated above, I haven't done the math, and I somewhat assume that on higher damaging auras (say, Blazing Aura), the proc would be less effective as a % of base damage, but I still think it's completely worth it esp since you can easily frankenslot your way into capped dam & end redux w/some healthy acc and still have room for 1 or 2 procs. I slot all my damage auras w/2x dam/end, 2x acc/dam/end, and 2 procs. Works out fantastically.

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Despite my penchant for number crunching, I've never done the math on procs for damage auras. Why? Because I did extensive "live" testing using Herostats and at least for Mud Pots, a single proc consistently returned about 32% of base damage over time (was 16% of my ED capped damage, out of Granite). That comes out to more or less an SO's worth of damage, so if your damage aura is unslotted, slotting a single dam SO or a single proc is almost a wash. If you're already capped for damage, adding a proc effectively makes it go over ED cap. I can't see why anyone would this this wasn't a great thing.

Mind you, as stated above, I haven't done the math, and I somewhat assume that on higher damaging auras (say, Blazing Aura), the proc would be less effective as a % of base damage, but I still think it's completely worth it esp since you can easily frankenslot your way into capped dam & end redux w/some healthy acc and still have room for 1 or 2 procs. I slot all my damage auras w/2x dam/end, 2x acc/dam/end, and 2 procs. Works out fantastically.

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I'll repeat. My comment are based specfically with scrappers. I didn't do the math, I ran Herostats. In 10 hours of testing the damage PROC contributed 0.01% of my over all damage. WAY below simply slotting a damage enhancement.

As I understand it, Mud Potts is fairly low in the damage department, so it makes sense you would see the PROC contribute more to your damage out put. The greater damage your Aura does, the lesser the PROC will contribute.

Someone asked for maths? Maths time it is!

First off, some initial commentary:
The number of targets affected is irrelevant. If you're hitting 10 targets with the aura, you've got 10 potential hits with the proc.
Activation time is important. If the activation time is not evenly divisible by 10 seconds, you're going to have a delay because there is a 10 second downtime and the procs check against the targets hit by the proc. Ergo, if you've got a longer, not evenly divisible activation time, you're going to lose some effectiveness.
I'll be using a 20% chance for 71.8 damage as the proc for basis of comparison. It's the most common damage proc that I see flying around, so that's what I'm working with. The math is simple enough that, if you want to recalculate it for other proc chances or damage, you can with little effort.

First off, Blazing Aura. 2 second activation, 13.76 fire damage. Every 5 ticks of the aura, you're going to get a proc chance with the tick. That's 68.8 damage per proc chance. The proc does, on average, 14.36 (.2*71.8) damage. A single SO (33% +dam) is going to add 22.704 damage for the same time frame. The SO is better (until you hit red zone, as usual).

Next, Death Shroud. 2 second activation, 12.51 neg damage. Every 5 ticks, you'll get a proc chance with the tick. 62.55 damage per proc chance. 14.36 damage on average with the proc. SO adds 20.6415 damage. Advantage to SO.

Next we'll do Invincibility. 1 sec activation, no damage. Every 10 ticks, you get a proc chance with the tick. 14.36 damage on average with the proc. That means you'll get an extra 1.436 DPS. Pretty small contribution, but not bad, especially if you get a large number of targets around you.

Last one, World of Confusion. 4 sec activation, 7.51 damage. Every 3 ticks (12 seconds), you'll get a chance to proc. 22.53 damage per cycle. 14.36 average damage for the proc. SO adds 7.4349 damage. Advantage to the proc. Interestingly, whereas in all of the other situations, the proc adds 1.436 DPS, it only adds 1.1967 to World of Confusion thanks to the activation time disparity.

Here's my take on it.

It comes out to +32% damage, but to me it's severely inferior to a SO/IO for two reasons:
1) It's not reliable.
2) It's concentrated. So what if it procs on one enemy, if I Have to use my AoEs to wipe out his 10 buds anyway?

That said, I use one in Icicles to push it's damage even higher.

You're talking about 0.01% of your overall scrapper damage, not % of the aura itself (which, in your case would be meaningless, since it was in CoF). I was saying a proc is worth approx 32% of the base damage of just the aura, which is about an SO's worth, at least for a low damaging tank aura. However, even accounting for scrapper auras vs. tanker (and Pots' damage is underrated), I can't see an aura proc coming in that low under usual cases. Were you only concentrating on 1 mob at a time? If your ST damage is silly high, I can see a proc in an aura be very lowly weighted.

When I get some free time (not soon, I'm afraid), I'll run Hero Stats w/my Fire/Fire scrapper w/procs in Blazing Aura. Since I tend to concentrate on AoE damage, I try to surround myself w/mobs quite a bit so I'm expecting a LOT higher than 0.01% overall damage to a single proc. Even accounting for higher aura damage, I predict somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% of base BA damage (so around 10% total) will come from the proc (and Umbral's math seems to back this up). While that's less than a SO, once you ED cap, it's still an excellent option. Unless someone beats me to it (hint, hint ), I'll report back w/some empirical data... sometime soon(tm).