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Which also means we're now full circle to "cascades so fast it may as well not be there" discussion. :P
I have a feeling we're simply not going to agree, here.
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Actually, my */wp is kat/wp, so I don't even notice the cascades actually, but that's why you should assume the same primary with different secondaries.
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Where in my post was I assuming different primaries? I was speaking for the general case. Would a DM/WP cascade? I'm positive it would. How about MA for both primaries? DB? Fire? I think the only primaries that wouldn't are the (single) swords.
Speaking of which, Werner has said he doesn't notice cascade failure on his Kat/Regen, so it's not WP's def resistance that's making the difference, rather DA.
Most of my active scrappers are either WP or Regen. My WPs have Aid Self. I just don't enjoy playing sets that are entirely passive. I consider Regen and WP 1A and 1B on my top Scrapper secondaries list for my play style. Can't go wrong with either in my book, but success with any set/power/character comes from the player more than the metrics.
That's why I won't deal in absolutes like "Regen is useless now that we have WP". I have seen some players do some wacky, over the top madness with sets I would not have touched. It all comes down to you.
TTR
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so it's not WP's def resistance that's making the difference, rather DA.
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As I said before, def debuff resistance's purpose isn't to actually negate the threat of a debuff cascade. It's to make the effect of the cascade less in magnitude and occur more slowly. It may not seem like much to you, but it's still a benefit of the debuff resistance and another reason why the ITF disproportionately favors */wp over */regen.
The entire point I've been trying to make with this entire line of debate we've found ourselves on is that. The ITF isn't a balanced domain of comparison for any of the scrapper secondaries, much less */wp and */regen.
There is still a reason to have */regen around excluding it being simply a legacy power set. */Regen can actually perform just as well and oftentimes better than */wp if it's got a good player behind it. It's not universally inferior as the OP seems to think. The problem most of the time is that most players who are using */regen aren't really of a caliber to pull it off.
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The entire point I've been trying to make with this entire line of debate we've found ourselves on is that. The ITF isn't a balanced domain of comparison for any of the scrapper secondaries, much less */wp and */regen.
There is still a reason to have */regen around excluding it being simply a legacy power set. */Regen can actually perform just as well and oftentimes better than */wp if it's got a good player behind it. It's not universally inferior as the OP seems to think. The problem most of the time is that most players who are using */regen aren't really of a caliber to pull it off.
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I have no issue with any of that.
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As I said before, def debuff resistance's purpose isn't to actually negate the threat of a debuff cascade. It's to make the effect of the cascade less in magnitude and occur more slowly. It may not seem like much to you, but it's still a benefit of the debuff resistance and another reason why the ITF disproportionately favors */wp over */regen.
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I take issue with this because you're exaggerating (in my opinion) how much of a difference the def resistance makes. (You further mentioned you never cascade since your primary is Kat/.) The ITF may favor WP more than Regen, but the def resistance is not even worth mentioning except for completeness sake.
That's the only thing I've been discussing.
[edit: I just realized I wasn't completely mathematically accurate in one of my above posts. I forgot to factor in the inherent 5% extra accuracy that comes with BS.]
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Many people here keep saying regen is so much better over all but thats just 90 seconds of time provided you dont get 2 shotted anyways.
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Most of the time when I see claims of /Regen power its a Kat or BS. When your primary caps you in 1/3 of your positional defenses Regen synergizes very well because none of it's mitigation is defense based. Willpower/Unvul doesn't synergize well since it is typed defense and SR/SD can cap without Parry/DA.
(Yes Kat/Dark and Kat/Fire are also really good.)
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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I take issue with this because you're exaggerating (in my opinion) how much of a difference the def resistance makes.
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I don't believe I am at all. You're reading that into what I've been saying. I specifically stated that it means that a */wp is going to require an extra 1 attack for every 6 attacks that hits a */regen in order to get to the same level of def debuff resistance. It actually slows down the cascade by a remarkable amount. Even operating under the assumption that a cascade is going to occur (though, more often you'll die before that actually happens on any toon except for a */regen), it still requires 17% longer to get there and is less likely to happen because each attack contributes less which means that there is less chance for each attack to generate the cascade. It may not be incredibly significant from your standpoint if you're only operating off of "no cascade" or "cascade" but there is a definite and visible slow down of the speed of a def debuff cascade if you're actually paying attention. It's similar to the difference in combat regeneration with Fast Healing and without. It's not going to make a significant enough difference for absolutely everyone to see, but it's present and contributes.
I've never tried to exaggerate the importance of the def debuff resistance. I've only tried to say that yes, it does, in fact, have an affect. Just because you want to ignore it doesn't mean that it's not there.
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I've never tried to exaggerate the importance of the def debuff resistance. I've only tried to say that yes, it does, in fact, have an affect. Just because you want to ignore it doesn't mean that it's not there.
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I can't believe I'm the one saying this, but could the two of you actually state your case mathematically?
Yes, in principle, the Defense Debuff resistance should give Will Power an advantage in an ITF.
From my experience, and from what I understand of Sarrate's post is that the difference is minuscule.
Will Power doesn't have that much defense to smash/lethal to begin with. A single 20% defense debuff will drop Will Powers S/L defense into double digit negatives?
A single defense debuff puts a Cim minion at a 71% chance to hit a Will Power scrapper? ...75% chance to hit a Regeneration scrapper?
Am I figuring this wrong? Umbral and Sarrate are both better at the math debates than I am, but this difference is looking damned minuscule to me.
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
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Most of the time when I see claims of /Regen power its a Kat or BS. When your primary caps you in 1/3 of your positional defenses Regen synergizes very well because none of it's mitigation is defense based. Willpower/Unvul doesn't synergize well since it is typed defense and SR/SD can cap without Parry/DA.
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Parry/DA can help soft-cap lethal defenses, which is plentiful out there.
In almost everything else, I find Regen and WP can last pretty much evenly.
However, on the ITF, I think it's more than just WP's little defense debuff resistance that in it's favor.
It's it's combination of defense (I can make a softcapped WP with IOs, but I havent been able to softcap defense, and hit cap on HP, but still give it decent regen with just one target in range 70-75 I beleive it was...maybe someone else has been able to do better?), resistance, almost capped HP, with good regen, and a tier 9, that helps wheneverything is about to go south.
Regen on the other hand, is great regen (better than WP), but lacks the defense and resistance. So it's taking alot of the damage faster than it can handle.
This is from my experience btw.
Hell, I don't even care to take my Electric Armor brute out on the ITF, I feel it's so poor on it (worse than Regen).
I think that's where my feeling that WP is better at the ITF. For a set that people say can't take the alpha, I find WP takes it alot better than people think, and does so better than Regen who (while they can take an alpha) can't take it as well as Regen if it's big enough one.
While I've done the ITF with IOed out Regens, maybe they werent the optimal build? With Regen, I would think you'd want as much recharge as possible, with defense thrown in (and this is me assuming Tough/Weave added in as well).
All that said, this is the only thing in the game where I see a big difference in the sets.
Everything else, I see them perform about the same (ITF itself deals with ALOT of enemies), unless you throw PvP into the mix, then /Regen pulls ahead of /WP...sooo...that could be the deciding factor.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Most of the time when I see claims of /Regen power its a Kat or BS. When your primary caps you in 1/3 of your positional defenses Regen synergizes very well because none of it's mitigation is defense based. Willpower/Unvul doesn't synergize well since it is typed defense and SR/SD can cap without Parry/DA.
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Parry/DA can help soft-cap lethal defenses, which is plentiful out there.
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Sure. But it doesn't synergize quite as well.
I was working on an experiemental Kat/WP build that didn't take Heightened Senses and instead capped Melee/Ranged/AoE with DA and set bonuses. I think my AoE feel short in the builds I was working on.
Though really what I meant is that I'd love to see some kick [censored] non-Parry/DA videos or read some stories of Regen feats like AV killing.
(While I'd love to see some Regen action in the RWZ challenge, it's my experience that Shockwave really makes a huge difference there so I suspect it would be a Claw/Regen scenario. Not that it isn't impressive to do with Claw/Regen.)
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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Though really what I meant is that I'd love to see some kick [censored] non-Parry/DA videos or read some stories of Regen feats like AV killing.
(While I'd love to see some Regen action in the RWZ challenge, it's my experience that Shockwave really makes a huge difference there so I suspect it would be a Claw/Regen scenario. Not that it isn't impressive to do with Claw/Regen.)
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I solo AVs and have completed the RWZ challenge on my DM/Regen. I've beaten most of the Praetorians (Mother Mayhem and Malaise are the big ones to mention; I couldn't kill dominatrix because she's horrible, evil, and resists damage like crazy) and a number of other AVs.
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Most of the time when I see claims of /Regen power its a Kat or BS. When your primary caps you in 1/3 of your positional defenses Regen synergizes very well because none of it's mitigation is defense based. Willpower/Unvul doesn't synergize well since it is typed defense and SR/SD can cap without Parry/DA.
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Parry/DA can help soft-cap lethal defenses, which is plentiful out there.
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Sure. But it doesn't synergize quite as well.
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I don't think it's a matter of synergy, but just a matter of fact that Parry/Divine Avalanche is just a great defensive tool. The power can provide the exact same benefit for Regen as it does for Willpower and Invulnerability. The only reason that it seems to synergize better for Regen is because Regen doesn't have any native defense. It provides the same benefit for Regen as it does for the other sets, it might even do more for Willpower and Invulnerability where it stacks with lethal defenses. For SR and SD, I would admit that the extra defenses are not needed (if built that way), but that does free up a slot to be used for something else. Otherwise, Parry/DA provide great "synergy" for those two sets through stacking the benefits.
That said, I would admit that Regen would probably get more out of it than a Willpower or Invulnerability, but that seems to be more of a issue of layering different damage mitigation, as opposed to stacking the same.
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Though really what I meant is that I'd love to see some kick [censored] non-Parry/DA videos or read some stories of Regen feats like AV killing.
(While I'd love to see some Regen action in the RWZ challenge, it's my experience that Shockwave really makes a huge difference there so I suspect it would be a Claw/Regen scenario. Not that it isn't impressive to do with Claw/Regen.)
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I doubt I'll get to AV Hunting, but I was able to get my MA/Regen to complete the RWZ Challenge, though not without much trial and error. Anything less than soft-capped, regardless of secondary, is going to have a hard time on high-end challenges.
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I've never tried to exaggerate the importance of the def debuff resistance. I've only tried to say that yes, it does, in fact, have an affect. Just because you want to ignore it doesn't mean that it's not there.
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I can't believe I'm the one saying this, but could the two of you actually state your case mathematically?
Yes, in principle, the Defense Debuff resistance should give Will Power an advantage in an ITF.
From my experience, and from what I understand of Sarrate's post is that the difference is minuscule.
Will Power doesn't have that much defense to smash/lethal to begin with. A single 20% defense debuff will drop Will Powers S/L defense into double digit negatives?
A single defense debuff puts a Cim minion at a 71% chance to hit a Will Power scrapper? ...75% chance to hit a Regeneration scrapper?
Am I figuring this wrong? Umbral and Sarrate are both better at the math debates than I am, but this difference is looking damned minuscule to me.
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Okay, so Roman minions have 2 attacks that cause def debuffs (Slash / Slice). It's possible for them to fire off 3 attacks within 7 seconds (Slash, Slice, Slash). If these are +2 minions, they will tohit cap at -25% def.
I wrote a quick program to go through three volleys of X attacks each 1000 times.
<ul type="square">[*]Runs with debuff resistance and 3.861% def (HS) with 3 attacks per volley
Run 1: Tohit capped 952 times out of 1000.
Run 2: Tohit capped 954 times out of 1000.
Run 3: Tohit capped 969 times out of 1000.
Runs without debuff resistance and 3.861% def (HS) with 3 attacks per volley
Run 1: Tohit capped 990 times out of 1000.
Run 2: Tohit capped 995 times out of 1000.
Run 3: Tohit capped 990 times out of 1000.
[*]Runs with debuff resistance and 9.711% def (HS+Weave) with 3 attacks per volley
Run 1: Tohit capped 788 times out of 1000.
Run 2: Tohit capped 790 times out of 1000.
Run 3: Tohit capped 834 times out of 1000.
Runs without debuff resistance and 9.711% def (HS+Weave) with 3 attacks per volley
Run 1: Tohit capped 928 times out of 1000.
Run 2: Tohit capped 898 times out of 1000.
Run 3: Tohit capped 927 times out of 1000.
[*]Runs with debuff resistance and 3.861% def (HS) with 6 attacks per volley
Run 1: Tohit capped 1000 times out of 1000.
Run 2: Tohit capped 1000 times out of 1000.
Run 3: Tohit capped 1000 times out of 1000.
Runs without debuff resistance and 3.861% def (HS) with 6 attacks per volley
Run 1: Tohit capped 1000 times out of 1000.
Run 2: Tohit capped 1000 times out of 1000.
Run 3: Tohit capped 1000 times out of 1000.
[*]Runs with debuff resistance and 9.711% def (HS+Weave) with 6 attacks per volley
Run 1: Tohit capped 999 times out of 1000.
Run 2: Tohit capped 1000 times out of 1000.
Run 3: Tohit capped 1000 times out of 1000.
Runs without debuff resistance and 9.711% def (HS+Weave) with 6 attacks per volley
Run 1: Tohit capped 1000 times out of 1000.
Run 2: Tohit capped 999 times out of 1000.
Run 3: Tohit capped 1000 times out of 1000.[/list]
Note 1: This assumes all the attacks in those volleys happen at the same time and aren't staggered at all. This means that if minion one hits, minion two won't benefit from the debuff.
Note 2: This is just minions, no lieutenants (3 def debuffing attacks) or bosses (4 def debuffing attacks).
This shows that in a small case (3 minions) with some stacked defense (9.711%) the def debuff resistance makes a decent difference. It gets completely shut down as the number of attackers increases (ie: during the ITF). Does it make a difference solo? Yes. Surrounded on the ITF, which is where I was making my debate? No, not in my opinion.
(Btw, I've set it up so I can set the starting defense and the number of attacks per volley. So if you'd like me to run with with X defense and Y attackers, I will.)
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Speaking of which, Werner has said he doesn't notice cascade failure on his Kat/Regen, so it's not WP's def resistance that's making the difference, rather DA.
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Oh, I NOTICE it. I have to, or it'll kill me. I monitor both base and melee defense. Base is only there to get my attention. The moment I see base defense go red, I spam Divine Avalanche until I'm back over 45% melee. That almost always works. If that doesn't, I also have Moment of Glory. 15 seconds of extreme defense will almost always interrupt a cascading defense failure. I do still occasionally have a problem high level Rikti heavy assault suits, Silver Mantis and Positron have all taken me out in the past with defense debuffs. But I don't think Cimerorans have yet (very close but so far so good).
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Most of the time when I see claims of /Regen power its a Kat or BS. When your primary caps you in 1/3 of your positional defenses Regen synergizes very well because none of it's mitigation is defense based. Willpower/Unvul doesn't synergize well since it is typed defense and SR/SD can cap without Parry/DA.
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Though really what I meant is that I'd love to see some kick [censored] non-Parry/DA videos or read some stories of Regen feats like AV killing.
(While I'd love to see some Regen action in the RWZ challenge, it's my experience that Shockwave really makes a huge difference there so I suspect it would be a Claw/Regen scenario. Not that it isn't impressive to do with Claw/Regen.)
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Then I present to you one of the most amazing things I've ever seen.
The Iggy_Kamakaze Swipe/Regen RWZ challenge.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Ok I reread it and _Mojo_ is right and here is why.
first you say
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A skilled */wp is going to survive about the same time as an unskilled */regen.
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So A good /WP is as good a and bad /Regen then you say.
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An unskilled */wp will generally survive longer than an unskilled */regen.
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so and bad /WP will survive more then and Bad /Regen, but a good /WP will live just as long?
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A skilled */regen will survive about as long, if not longer, than an equally skilled */wp.
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so a good regen will be just as good but if not better then a good willpower.
what doesn't make sense is you just said that a a
good Willpower player=Bad regen player
Bad Willpower player >Bad regen player
Good Willpower player=or< Good regen Player
How does a good willpwer player live just as long as a bad regen player when a Bad willpower player will live longer that is why it doesn't make sense.
What I think you mean to say was a skilled */wp is going to survive about the same time as an unskilled */Wp.
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Gah >.< Meant that second one as */wp. Going back to fix it now. I read it differently because that's what it said in my head.
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I figured you'd see it eventually :-p
@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.
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Dont make me level and kat/regen to kick your butt Mojo...
I'm just crazy enough to do it, and I need a scrapper project after getting to that prestige milestone on Cat.
I'm thinking my dark/regen will be it though, fast effective and a very fun RP concept.
Oor maybe I'll try to earn enough to buy the softcapped defence build I just drafted out for Cat as my 2nd build. That's scarily expensive.
Desmodos:
It really is a matter of style and taste. You obviously dont find regen for you. The whole time I was levelling Kittenwhoorg (claws/SR) I felt naked to spike damage. There was no back-up heal. If I went red it was win, die or disengage. Sure there were extras I could have taken like aid-self, to help that but the bottom line but /SR and /WP for me are just not fun for me.
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Do it :-)
@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.
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And I've personally never been outlasted by a anything/regen, but that's just me, I'm a crazy kat/wp.
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You've obviously never played with a crazy good, equally well built Kat/Regen.
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On the other note, Werner's on a different server :-p Where else am I going to find an equally comparable Kat/Regen? I guess no katana/regens are on my level then...
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Heh. I actually don't think my Katana/Regen is any better than your Katana/Willpower. I used to think Regen won at the top end challenges, but then I looked more closely at some top end Katana/Willpower builds like yours. I now think they're equivalent, and to be equivalent, I have to be at the top of my game.
Buff Regin! 
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Speaking of which, Werner has said he doesn't notice cascade failure on his Kat/Regen, so it's not WP's def resistance that's making the difference, rather DA.
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Oh, I NOTICE it. I have to, or it'll kill me. I monitor both base and melee defense. Base is only there to get my attention. The moment I see base defense go red, I spam Divine Avalanche until I'm back over 45% melee. That almost always works. If that doesn't, I also have Moment of Glory. 15 seconds of extreme defense will almost always interrupt a cascading defense failure. I do still occasionally have a problem high level Rikti heavy assault suits, Silver Mantis and Positron have all taken me out in the past with defense debuffs. But I don't think Cimerorans have yet (very close but so far so good).
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Whoops, sorry about that Werner; my memory failed me there.
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Speaking of which, Werner has said he doesn't notice cascade failure on his Kat/Regen, so it's not WP's def resistance that's making the difference, rather DA.
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Oh, I NOTICE it. I have to, or it'll kill me. I monitor both base and melee defense. Base is only there to get my attention. The moment I see base defense go red, I spam Divine Avalanche until I'm back over 45% melee. That almost always works. If that doesn't, I also have Moment of Glory. 15 seconds of extreme defense will almost always interrupt a cascading defense failure. I do still occasionally have a problem high level Rikti heavy assault suits, Silver Mantis and Positron have all taken me out in the past with defense debuffs. But I don't think Cimerorans have yet (very close but so far so good).
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Whoops, sorry about that Werner; my memory failed me there.
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Or I might have posted something simple like I don't have problems with cascading defense failure. Lots of ways to read that, and no memory failure involved. But it's similar to I don't have problems with lots of incoming damage. I don't, but it's because I'm clicking the right things at the right time.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Are we making this a monthly thing?
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Are we making this a monthly thing?
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OK, but lets skip July 4th, too many folks traveling then.
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
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Most of the time when I see claims of /Regen power its a Kat or BS. When your primary caps you in 1/3 of your positional defenses Regen synergizes very well because none of it's mitigation is defense based. Willpower/Unvul doesn't synergize well since it is typed defense and SR/SD can cap without Parry/DA.
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Though really what I meant is that I'd love to see some kick [censored] non-Parry/DA videos or read some stories of Regen feats like AV killing.
(While I'd love to see some Regen action in the RWZ challenge, it's my experience that Shockwave really makes a huge difference there so I suspect it would be a Claw/Regen scenario. Not that it isn't impressive to do with Claw/Regen.)
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Sorry a Newbie question here. how do you monitor your defense and things like that? you said when it goes to red then you hit the panic buttons but how do you see that?
My Willpower doesn't feel like the be-all-end-all of survival. Given, he's a brute, but unless there are significant differences between brute and scrapper Willpower, I'm going to have to say that there are plenty of reasons for Regen.
QR
Weatherby_Goode - "Heck, Carrion Creepers negates the knockdown from Carrion Creepers."
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Which also means we're now full circle to "cascades so fast it may as well not be there" discussion. :P
I have a feeling we're simply not going to agree, here.
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Actually, my */wp is kat/wp, so I don't even notice the cascades actually, but that's why you should assume the same primary with different secondaries.