[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I base this alot of this on ITF runs mind you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which disproportionately favors */WP because it's got def debuff resistance and significantly higher levels of lethal resist.
[/ QUOTE ]
What?
Why should letha resitance make a difference? Isn't Regnerations mitigation indescrimante?
[/ QUOTE ]
*/Regen's mitigation is indiscriminate (or, less so than normal), but */wp's isn't, which means that it gets more effect from some types than others. That's like saying that */invuln is king of the secondaries but only using s/l damage to determine it. The big difference in performance on the ITF though is */regen's lack of debuff resistance (/shakefist at Castle).
[/ QUOTE ]
The def resistance in WP is laughable on the ITF; it's so saturated in def debuffs that unless you're riding 55%+ def or ultra high def resistance (80%+) it does you no good. (That's my experience as a Tank, which has stronger def resistance than Scrappers.)
Which Will Power power grants Def debuff resistance?
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
[ QUOTE ]
Ok I reread it and _Mojo_ is right and here is why.
first you say
[ QUOTE ]
A skilled */wp is going to survive about the same time as an unskilled */regen.
[/ QUOTE ]
So A good /WP is as good a and bad /Regen then you say.
[ QUOTE ]
An unskilled */wp will generally survive longer than an unskilled */regen.
[/ QUOTE ]
so and bad /WP will survive more then and Bad /Regen, but a good /WP will live just as long?
[ QUOTE ]
A skilled */regen will survive about as long, if not longer, than an equally skilled */wp.
[/ QUOTE ]
so a good regen will be just as good but if not better then a good willpower.
what doesn't make sense is you just said that a a
good Willpower player=Bad regen player
Bad Willpower player >Bad regen player
Good Willpower player=or< Good regen Player
How does a good willpwer player live just as long as a bad regen player when a Bad willpower player will live longer that is why it doesn't make sense.
What I think you mean to say was a skilled */wp is going to survive about the same time as an unskilled */Wp.
[/ QUOTE ]
Gah >.< Meant that second one as */wp. Going back to fix it now. I read it differently because that's what it said in my head.
[ QUOTE ]
Which Will Power power grants Def debuff resistance?
[/ QUOTE ]
Heightened Senses
"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I base this alot of this on ITF runs mind you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which disproportionately favors */WP because it's got def debuff resistance and significantly higher levels of lethal resist.
[/ QUOTE ]
What?
Why should lethal resitance make a difference? Isn't Regnerations mitigation indescrimante?
[/ QUOTE ]
While Regen heals all damage at the same rate, having less damage coming in means that the set performs better. Less to heal = able to take bigger pre-resistance hits.
And the lack of debuff resistance means that Regeneration is the one secondary that can be essentially turned off if hit with enough debuffs.
I have a dark/regen, BS/regen, dark/WP, and a BS/WP. All four are 50 and IOed out. I can't say who was better out of my dark/regen and wp/regen because my dark/regen was my first alt and I pretty much didn't know what I was doing. (I didn't get a travel of any kind till 22 just show you how little I knew). And its too close to call with the BS/regen and the BS/WP. To me, it comes down to if you want to work or not. Hitting the right clicks at the right time on a /regen will keep you in the game just as long as a /WP. If you get hit slows on a regen, you are in trouble. You get hit with -res and or -regen on a /WP, you are in trouble. The clicks of a /regen can help you survive that. Just like with any set, know your weakness. But if I had to pick what to play over the other, the idea of getting quick recovery before level 10 on a /regen would have sold me.
"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
[ QUOTE ]
Which Will Power power grants Def debuff resistance?
[/ QUOTE ]
Heightened Senses, all 17.3% worth. (Tankers is 21.625%.)
I tested it a while back, single attacks from Cims have a debuff value of 10% (screenshot). So if you get hit twice (-20%) it will shave 3.46% off it. Laughable. :P
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Which Will Power power grants Def debuff resistance?
[/ QUOTE ]
Heightened Senses, all 17.3% worth. (Tankers is 21.625%.)
I tested it a while back, single attacks from Cims have a debuff value of 10% (screenshot). So if you get hit twice (-20%) it will shave 3.46% off it. Laughable. :P
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really laughable when you consider that it means that you're getting hit 7% less, even after those 2 debuffs.
[ QUOTE ]
And the lack of debuff resistance means that Regeneration is the one secondary that can be essentially turned off if hit with enough debuffs.
[/ QUOTE ]
How do defense debuffs turn off Regeneration?
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Which Will Power power grants Def debuff resistance?
[/ QUOTE ]
Heightened Senses, all 17.3% worth. (Tankers is 21.625%.)
I tested it a while back, single attacks from Cims have a debuff value of 10% (screenshot). So if you get hit twice (-20%) it will shave 3.46% off it. Laughable. :P
[/ QUOTE ]
That explains why I never noticed it, but to know.
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
[ QUOTE ]
Not really laughable when you consider that it means that you're getting hit 7% less, even after those 2 debuffs.
[/ QUOTE ]
That seems off. Cims are hitting you for Smash/lethal, since WP has so little S/L defense, wouldn't the incoming damage by substantially higher?
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
I see it as:
[u]Best[u]
Peak Regen (up 50% of the time)
Peak Willpower
Peak Regen (down 50% of the time)
...
Average Regen (up 15% of the time)
Average Willpower
Average Regen (up 33% of the time)
...
Average Regen (down 67% of the time)
[u]Worst[u]
But it also has a great deal to do with which playstyle fits each player, as well as which primary you pair with each secondary. Willpower is easier, cheaper, and more consistent in it's performance. Some people will find that a good thing, while others find it a bad thing.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And the lack of debuff resistance means that Regeneration is the one secondary that can be essentially turned off if hit with enough debuffs.
[/ QUOTE ]
How do defense debuffs turn off Regeneration?
[/ QUOTE ]
The quote was referring to generic debuffs, probably referring to recharge and regeneration debuffs (which can turn off */regen's effectiveness rather easily).
As to how defense debuffs can "turn off" */regen, you've heard of the defense debuff cascade correct? Get hit, get def debuffed, get hit more, etc. Regen gets hit harder by the def debuff cascade because it's got less def to actually debuff and no def debuff resistance to mitigate the effects of it. 17.34% def debuff resistance might not seem like much, but it means that you're going to need to get hit an extra def debuff for every 5-6 that a */regen gets hit by to get to the same level of reduced defense.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Which Will Power power grants Def debuff resistance?
[/ QUOTE ]
Heightened Senses, all 17.3% worth. (Tankers is 21.625%.)
I tested it a while back, single attacks from Cims have a debuff value of 10% (screenshot). So if you get hit twice (-20%) it will shave 3.46% off it. Laughable. :P
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really laughable when you consider that it means that you're getting hit 7% less, even after those 2 debuffs.
[/ QUOTE ]
My problem with that is how fast defense cascades.
Let's say a WP has 20% s/l def and is facing +2 minions. Once the WP hits -30% def, the minions are tohit capped. That means -50% worth of def debuffs after def resistance, or -60% before. That saves the WP one hit compared to a character with no def resistance (5 vs 6). A +2 lieutenant caps out with -38.8% worth of def debuffs after def resistance, or -47% before def resistance. Again, a single hit (4 vs 5).
This is compounded by the fact that RttC is an autohit taunt aura, so WP is far more likely to have more mobs attacking him which means more swings, which means more debuffs.
it seems to be that the set called "Regeneration" should have more regen then WP, but the numbers make it look like WP has better regen (when around enemies).
[ QUOTE ]
17.34% def debuff resistance might not seem like much, but it means that you're going to need to get hit an extra def debuff for every 5-6 that a */regen gets hit by to get to the same level of reduced defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's not making any sense to me. 17.34% defense debuff resistance is gonna change a 20% defense debuff to ~16%. That still puts Will Power in the negative with a single hit.
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
[ QUOTE ]
My problem with that is how fast defense cascades.
[/ QUOTE ]
Def debuff resistance like */wp has won't prevent a def debuff cascade, but it will slow it down. Debuff resistance is only meant to trivialize a specific debuff in a few circumstances (*/SR and */SD come to mind). For everyone else, the purpose is to reduce the end effect or slow down the catastrophic arrival of the cascade.
I'm looking at the different playstyle of both Regen and Willpower, and Regen does require a bit more skill to be used as effectively as Willpower. As to how much skill depends on the difficulty of what you are going up against.
Assuming similar costing builds and conditions, Willpower relies on herding to get the most out of RttC. Outside of that, its toggles just need to be maintained to provide constant level damage mitigation. Once HP starts to drop to a dangerous level, the player just needs to pop an inspiration or disengage and possibly "kite" the mobs to get some breathing space for RttC to get back into the green. Otherwise, it's a race to see who goes down first or a gamble to see if your defenses will hold up.
Regeneration doesn't require herding to be useful (outside of a primary that can dish out PBAoE damage) but it can still use the disengage and kite tactic if necessary. However, its click powers can provide more protection and mitigation than just disengaging. But those powers need to be used optimally if you want to get the most out of them. The "skill" needed to use Regen and its click is something that you talk about, but you really don't get the feel of it until you are put into a situation where it really matters. Do you want to use Recon right now, or save it and let Integration pull you through for a little longer? Should I hit Recon, DP or MoG next? What works now but might not work later, or vice versa? And given enough recharge and timing, Regen is going to have another "emergency" button that a Willpower wouldn't have in a near-defeat scenario, barring external buffs or powers or inspirations.
Given the different playstyles, I can see why some players prefer Willpower to Regen, or vice versa. Another thing to consider is making builds. With just SOs, the two sets are pretty comparable, but when you throw in IOs into the mix, Willpower could generally be much better improved than Regen could, until you are going into the expensive/min-maxed builds where effectiveness of your build largely depends on build direction and circumstances.
[ QUOTE ]
it seems to be that the set called "Regeneration" should have more regen then WP, but the numbers make it look like WP has better regen (when around enemies).
[/ QUOTE ] That's only considering Integration and Rise to the Challenge. Once you add in Instant Healing, Regeneration does have more +regen than Willpower. Toss in Dull Pain and Reconstitution and you got heals (or "burst regen") to up the ante.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My problem with that is how fast defense cascades.
[/ QUOTE ]
Def debuff resistance like */wp has won't prevent a def debuff cascade, but it will slow it down. Debuff resistance is only meant to trivialize a specific debuff in a few circumstances (*/SR and */SD come to mind). For everyone else, the purpose is to reduce the end effect or slow down the catastrophic arrival of the cascade.
[/ QUOTE ]
What I'm saying is defense cascades so fast the def resistance may as well not even be there. Under normal situations where def debuffs exist, but aren't in practically every attack, I'd agree. In this case, there's just too much of it to matter.
You say that WP's def resistance will slow down the cascade... slower than not being attacked as frequently like a Regen due to the lack of a taunt aura? I'd completely disagree. (Remember, this started from a comment about the ITF, not solo, so that's the angle I'm approaching this from.)
[ QUOTE ]
You say that WP's def resistance will slow down the cascade... slower than not being attacked as frequently like a Regen due to the lack of a taunt aura? I'd completely disagree. (Remember, this started from a comment about the ITF, not solo, so that's the angle I'm approaching this from.)
[/ QUOTE ]
That's also assuming that there's not a Brute or Tanker nearby that's taunting those targets as well. Unless you're letting lose with AoEs like crazy, it's more like for the Brute or Tanker to have aggro on those targets than you.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You say that WP's def resistance will slow down the cascade... slower than not being attacked as frequently like a Regen due to the lack of a taunt aura? I'd completely disagree. (Remember, this started from a comment about the ITF, not solo, so that's the angle I'm approaching this from.)
[/ QUOTE ]
That's also assuming that there's not a Brute or Tanker nearby that's taunting those targets as well. Unless you're letting lose with AoEs like crazy, it's more like for the Brute or Tanker to have aggro on those targets than you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, in that case, why should any Scrapper be in danger of dying? The Tanker/Brute has aggro, AoEs are the only thing the Scrappers would need to survive.
Let's be honest, how often does it happen that extra mobs aren't pulled, or the Tank hits the aggro cap, or that Scrappers try to clean up loose mobs, or the team splits, etc. Ideally none of these would happen, but from my experience they are not rare by any means.
[ QUOTE ]
Let's be honest, how often does it happen that extra mobs aren't pulled, or the Tank hits the aggro cap, or that Scrappers try to clean up loose mobs, or the team splits, etc. Ideally none of these would happen, but from my experience they are not rare by any means.
[/ QUOTE ]
In those situations, my */regen is getting beat on just as often as my */wp, but that's also due to the fact that my */regen runs with DC and SD which mean that I'm attracting the hate either way.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's be honest, how often does it happen that extra mobs aren't pulled, or the Tank hits the aggro cap, or that Scrappers try to clean up loose mobs, or the team splits, etc. Ideally none of these would happen, but from my experience they are not rare by any means.
[/ QUOTE ]
In those situations, my */regen is getting beat on just as often as my */wp, but that's also due to the fact that my */regen runs with DC and SD which mean that I'm attracting the hate either way.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which also means we're now full circle to "cascades so fast it may as well not be there" discussion. :P
I have a feeling we're simply not going to agree, here.
Back "in the day" after the great Regen Nerfs but before ED ( when it was easy to make Hasten and DP perma), I used to run around with about 900% constant regen without having to resort to using IH and that was enough for me to solo just about anything except Malta sappers and AVs without having to resort to firing off IH, MoG or Reconstruction.
Now my new build has a little over 800% constant regen, perma DP and Hasten up 85% of the time and frankly I am loving it.
It feels almost exactly like it did pre-ED but with a much more useful version of MoG in the set.
I am back to the point where soloing is not a chore and the game is "fun" to play again.
Mind you it cost about 450 million Inf on IOs to be able to do it but to me it was worth it.