I haven't played a shield tank but the feeling I've gotten is: Ice has better defense, but shield will hit harder.
Ice is actually very friendly with the blue bar once you get and slot energy absorbtion.
As for leaving CE on while herding...thats up to you. It will slow them down as they chase you, but it will also blunt the alpha with it's -dmg effect.
I can give some pointers on ice armor if you have questions but my ice tank is ice/db, the only ice melee experience I have is with the blaster version.
Shield has a focus on damage and positional defenses. The more enemies around you, the less damage they deal and the more you deal. The set has an attack in the very powerful Shield Charge. You'll buff all your nearby teammates and in return their presence will enhance your defenses. Shield lacks a self-heal, which may be the big flaw in the set.
Ice focuses on control and typed defenses. Compared to Shield Charge it has a hole against psionics. Enemies will have -recharge, -speed due to your taunt aura. In Hoarfrost you have a heal/hp-buff. You have Energy Absorbtion, which restores endurance and gives you more defense, while draining end from enemies. And your level 32 power allows you to take a break in the middle of a combat and restore both health and endurance.
The impression I have of the set is that Shield shines with allies, since they would boost your defense and you would boost theirs. Ice isn't as focused on teaming and hibernation works best if you're in the middle of a big fight, where you realize your health has become low. Click the button and you'll have up to 30 seconds to recover health and then you can leap right back into the fight again.
Mostly right, I just wanted to point out two things that aren't entirely accurate:
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The more enemies around you, the less damage they deal and the more you deal.
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The +DMG per enemy does grow, since there are more enemies around you, but the enemy doesn't do less damage the more that are around you. A single Mob will be debuffed just as much as if there was 10 Mobs around you.
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Enemies will have -recharge, -speed due to your taunt aura.
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Chilling Embrace also has a -DMG effect, that is actually greater than Shield's.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
In my experience with Shields is that the group friendly toggles/powers are fairly dismal. Phalanx Fighting (gives you defense + defense per ally near you up to 3) has such a tight radius as to be almost only taken for the initial defense buff rather than the buff it gives from allies (and is generally slotted accordingly).
The defense buff given to team mates is like having a built in Maneuvers. It's a perk but definitely skippable (it's not like you're giving your team a *substantial* defense bonus).
Shield's main draw is Shield Charge, which gives you a nice AOE from your Primary which is very rare in the Tanker lines. That combined with the damage buff aura makes Shields very attractive to Scranker types.
Mace (since you mentioned it) offers decent damage and a better variety of AOE's then most secondaries. Combined with Shield, you'll find that in the 30s you become a pack destroyer (minions just melt). The downside to this of course is that you lose a good portion of your damage buff when you have the boss/eb/av left to fight.
Finally if you are not including sets, Shields/WM is very endurance intensive and the slight buff (5%) in weapon accuracy doesn't change how you will need to slot accuracies in your powers.
Ice Armor is a very nice set in terms of control. It has one of the better taunt auras in Chilling Embrace and becomes totally endurance self sufficient with Energy Absorbtion (mid 20s). Ice also has a heal similar to Inv's Dull Pain, and one of the best T9 powers in the game (imo) in Hibernation. Just Taunt and Hibernate and you will virtually never die.
Ice Melee is (or was) fairly flat damage wise, however it has the best control features which compliment Ice Armor immensely. The mini ice-patch virtually offsets the defense based problems of getting a bad slew of random numbers generated to hit you.
Both Shield and Ice are defense based which means that unlucky strings of hits can waffle you down pretty fast. In my estimation Ice/Ice has a higher probability of survival out of the box and does a better job at *tanking* then Shield/WM does.
My experience is based on seeing both in action at the high level and having an L35 Ice/Eng Tanker and an L28 Shields/WM Tanker. So take that for what it's worth.
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The defense buff given to team mates is like having a built in Maneuvers. It's a perk but definitely skippable (it's not like you're giving your team a *substantial* defense bonus).
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If you're talking about Grant Cover, this isn't quite right. Grant Cover gives a very substantial +11.25% def(melee, ranged, aoe) to everyone but the tanker in a 15-ft. radius. Compare that to Force Field Defenders, whose Dispersion Bubble gives +10% def(all) to everyone within 25ft.
Grant Cover also provides 17.3% defense debuff resistance.
EDIT to add that Maneuvers for a tank grants +2.275% def(all) in a massive 60ft. radius.
Victory: @Brimstone Bruce
Brimstone Bruce (lvl50 Stone/Fire Tanker) Broadside Bruce (lvl50 Shield/WM Tanker)
Ultionis (lvl50 Dark/Dark Defender) Cortex Crusher (lvl50 Mind/Kin Controller)
Patronox (lvl50 Kat/Dark Scrapper) Harbinger Mk.7 (lvl50 Bots/FF MM)
NightShift for Life.
[ QUOTE ]
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The defense buff given to team mates is like having a built in Maneuvers. It's a perk but definitely skippable (it's not like you're giving your team a *substantial* defense bonus).
[/ QUOTE ]
If you're talking about Grant Cover, this isn't quite right. Grant Cover gives a very substantial +11.25% def(melee, ranged, aoe) to everyone but the tanker in a 15-ft. radius. Compare that to Force Field Defenders, whose Dispersion Bubble gives +10% def(all) to everyone within 25ft.
Grant Cover also provides 17.3% defense debuff resistance.
EDIT to add that Maneuvers for a tank grants +2.275% def(all) in a massive 60ft. radius.
[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't grant typed defense? Ick, that means it doesn't stack with sets that utilize typed defense (like Invuln, WP, Ice, etc).
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The defense buff given to team mates is like having a built in Maneuvers. It's a perk but definitely skippable (it's not like you're giving your team a *substantial* defense bonus).
[/ QUOTE ]
If you're talking about Grant Cover, this isn't quite right. Grant Cover gives a very substantial +11.25% def(melee, ranged, aoe) to everyone but the tanker in a 15-ft. radius. Compare that to Force Field Defenders, whose Dispersion Bubble gives +10% def(all) to everyone within 25ft.
Grant Cover also provides 17.3% defense debuff resistance.
EDIT to add that Maneuvers for a tank grants +2.275% def(all) in a massive 60ft. radius.
[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't grant typed defense? Ick, that means it doesn't stack with sets that utilize typed defense (like Invuln, WP, Ice, etc).
[/ QUOTE ]
It does. It's 11.25% to all positions and all types except psi.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
I forgot that it was that high ... worthwhile but still skippable in my estimation. Especially since most Tanker's have to work at making themselves as impervious as possible.
Additionally a 15' radius will mean that most of the ranged in your party will not receive its benefit unless you remind them to be close to you at all times.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The defense buff given to team mates is like having a built in Maneuvers. It's a perk but definitely skippable (it's not like you're giving your team a *substantial* defense bonus).
[/ QUOTE ]
If you're talking about Grant Cover, this isn't quite right. Grant Cover gives a very substantial +11.25% def(melee, ranged, aoe) to everyone but the tanker in a 15-ft. radius. Compare that to Force Field Defenders, whose Dispersion Bubble gives +10% def(all) to everyone within 25ft.
Grant Cover also provides 17.3% defense debuff resistance.
EDIT to add that Maneuvers for a tank grants +2.275% def(all) in a massive 60ft. radius.
[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't grant typed defense? Ick, that means it doesn't stack with sets that utilize typed defense (like Invuln, WP, Ice, etc).
[/ QUOTE ]
It does. It's 11.25% to all positions and all types except psi.
[/ QUOTE ]
I thought there was something wonky with City of Data... it lists it as "DEF(Melee, Melee, Ranged, AOE)."
RE: Kruunch:
I plan on picking it up more for the defense debuff resistance than the team defense.
Victory: @Brimstone Bruce
Brimstone Bruce (lvl50 Stone/Fire Tanker) Broadside Bruce (lvl50 Shield/WM Tanker)
Ultionis (lvl50 Dark/Dark Defender) Cortex Crusher (lvl50 Mind/Kin Controller)
Patronox (lvl50 Kat/Dark Scrapper) Harbinger Mk.7 (lvl50 Bots/FF MM)
NightShift for Life.
[ QUOTE ]
I forgot that it was that high ... worthwhile but still skippable in my estimation. Especially since most Tanker's have to work at making themselves as impervious as possible.
[/ QUOTE ]
What is the mission of the tanker? To ensure that his team does not die.
This is most often done by grabbing aggro and taking a beating. But Grant Cover is another way of protecting your team. It is also a way for the tanker to give his team a reason to be near, to get the full benefit from Phalanx Fighting.
I usually expect the team to stick closely together anyway. Bubblers and aura-heals are usually done very close to the tank anyway, so if the blaster/troller/whatever is going to benefit, he/she will be up close and personal anyway. Yes, some healers may also have a ranged healing, but some are only aura healing (rad, dark, kin). And if not they stay close? Well, then let those fools die a painful death, because they deliberately chose to avoid the benefits of protection/healing. Having a healer/bubbler leave the close combat behind to save some idiot blaster, means leaving the melee'ers vulnerable while the buffer is gone.
[ QUOTE ]
Ice has better defense, but shield will hit harder.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this statment Shield/ has wonderful defense using melee/ranged/aoe it has very few holes, I spent a meger 15-20 mill on IO's and have over 50% defense to each of these. I think the real difference between the two is the heal.
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As for leaving CE on while herding...thats up to you. It will slow them down as they chase you, but it will also blunt the alpha with it's -dmg effect.
[/ QUOTE ]
As stated this is your toon, your playstyle.. I always left CE on, a few more seconds it does take but it holds aggro pretty well and thats always a benifit for eager blasters and such.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ice has better defense, but shield will hit harder.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this statment Shield/ has wonderful defense using melee/ranged/aoe it has very few holes, I spent a meger 15-20 mill on IO's and have over 50% defense to each of these. I think the real difference between the two is the heal.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry I should have said "defenses" not to be confused with defense. My bad. Ice has much better over all defenses *out of the box*. And remember the OP said he wasn't going to be slotting in IOs.
My reasoning for this is Hibernation, Hoarfrost, Energy Absorbtion and Chlling Embrace. Shield doesn't have analogous abilities and the abilities it does have, while making it a good defense set, doesn't quite reach up to Ice's level from a *tanking* perspective. YMMV.
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I forgot that it was that high ... worthwhile but still skippable in my estimation. Especially since most Tanker's have to work at making themselves as impervious as possible.
[/ QUOTE ]
What is the mission of the tanker? To ensure that his team does not die.
This is most often done by grabbing aggro and taking a beating. But Grant Cover is another way of protecting your team. It is also a way for the tanker to give his team a reason to be near, to get the full benefit from Phalanx Fighting.
[/ QUOTE ]
As I said, I'd skip Grant Cover ... usually for getting Tough and Weave while still trying to fit in powers like Hasten and so forth. I'd rather work on my offense, at the expense of group buffs, my primary concern being my personal toughness and the ability to gain/keep agro. This is a personal preference obviously and doesn't mean Grant Cover isn't worth taking.
Brimstone: In my experience, debuff resists don't often work as well as they might seem represented and since we're talking about team tanking, the defense debuff resistance from Grant Cover won't overcome a pack of mobs with defense debuffs (i.e. eventually you get debuffed anyways).
I'm not sure how the numbers work so maybe one of the minutia men can jump in and explain defense debuffs, versus defense debuff resists on a multiple mob basis.
It may be that the defense debuff resists would be a total reason to get Grant Cover. I'd be interested to know.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The defense buff given to team mates is like having a built in Maneuvers. It's a perk but definitely skippable (it's not like you're giving your team a *substantial* defense bonus).
[/ QUOTE ]
If you're talking about Grant Cover, this isn't quite right. Grant Cover gives a very substantial +11.25% def(melee, ranged, aoe) to everyone but the tanker in a 15-ft. radius. Compare that to Force Field Defenders, whose Dispersion Bubble gives +10% def(all) to everyone within 25ft.
Grant Cover also provides 17.3% defense debuff resistance.
EDIT to add that Maneuvers for a tank grants +2.275% def(all) in a massive 60ft. radius.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're forgetting that Dispersion Bubble also gives protection to holds, stuns, and immobilization. Along with defense to everything.
Thanks to everyone who has posted so far - you've given me a ton of useful input!
I'm leaning toward ice now, because the I like the emergency healing abilities and I think I might make myself a shield brute or scrapper instead (to take better advantage of the extra damage). This is the build I've made up in Mids so far - any suggestions?
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]
Level 50 Natural Tanker
Primary Power Set: Ice Armor
Secondary Power Set: Ice Melee
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Arctic Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Hoarfrost -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(3), RechRdx-I(3), Heal-I(9), Heal-I(11), Heal-I(11)
Level 1: Frozen Fists -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(9), Dmg-I(37), Dmg-I(40), Dmg-I(43)
Level 2: Frozen Armor -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(5), DefBuff-I(5), DefBuff-I(7)
Level 4: Frost -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(7), Dmg-I(13), Dmg-I(15), Dmg-I(15), RechRdx-I(37)
Level 6: Wet Ice -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Air Superiority -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(13), Dmg-I(37), Dmg-I(40), Dmg-I(43)
Level 10: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 12: Taunt -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 14: Fly -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(34)
Level 16: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(17), Heal-I(17)
Level 18: Glacial Armor -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(19), DefBuff-I(19), DefBuff-I(23)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(21), EndMod-I(21)
Level 22: Chilling Embrace -- EndRdx-I(A), Taunt-I(23)
Level 24: Icicles -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(25), Acc-I(25), Dmg-I(27), Dmg-I(27), Dmg-I(31)
Level 26: Energy Absorption -- RechRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(29), DefBuff-I(29), DefBuff-I(31)
Level 28: Ice Patch -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Boxing -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(31), Dmg-I(40), Dmg-I(46)
Level 32: Hibernate -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(33), RechRdx-I(33), Heal-I(33), Heal-I(34), Heal-I(34)
Level 35: Tough -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(36), ResDam-I(36), ResDam-I(36)
Level 38: Weave -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(39), DefBuff-I(39), DefBuff-I(39)
Level 41: Freezing Touch -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(42), Hold-I(42), Hold-I(42), RechRdx-I(43)
Level 44: Frozen Aura -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(45), Dmg-I(45), Dmg-I(45), Dmg-I(46), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 47: Block of Ice -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(48), Hold-I(48), Hold-I(48), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 49: Shiver -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(50), RechRdx-I(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
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The defense buff given to team mates is like having a built in Maneuvers. It's a perk but definitely skippable (it's not like you're giving your team a *substantial* defense bonus).
[/ QUOTE ]
If you're talking about Grant Cover, this isn't quite right. Grant Cover gives a very substantial +11.25% def(melee, ranged, aoe) to everyone but the tanker in a 15-ft. radius. Compare that to Force Field Defenders, whose Dispersion Bubble gives +10% def(all) to everyone within 25ft.
Grant Cover also provides 17.3% defense debuff resistance.
EDIT to add that Maneuvers for a tank grants +2.275% def(all) in a massive 60ft. radius.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're forgetting that Dispersion Bubble also gives protection to holds, stuns, and immobilization. Along with defense to everything.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not forgetting, just showing that Grant Cover's defense bonus is much higher than Maneuvers, albeit in a much smaller radius. And my post was incorrect, Grant Cover does provide defense to everything but psionic. Between Grant Cover and Dispersion Bubble, I'd take the Bubble any day of the week.
Victory: @Brimstone Bruce
Brimstone Bruce (lvl50 Stone/Fire Tanker) Broadside Bruce (lvl50 Shield/WM Tanker)
Ultionis (lvl50 Dark/Dark Defender) Cortex Crusher (lvl50 Mind/Kin Controller)
Patronox (lvl50 Kat/Dark Scrapper) Harbinger Mk.7 (lvl50 Bots/FF MM)
NightShift for Life.
[QR]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ice has better defense, but shield will hit harder.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this statment Shield/ has wonderful defense using melee/ranged/aoe it has very few holes, I spent a meger 15-20 mill on IO's and have over 50% defense to each of these. I think the real difference between the two is the heal.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was speaking spefically in terms of out of the box, no IO sets taken into account. Although, I would hazard a guess that ice will keep a defensive edge over shield given similar IO investment. This is not to say that shield cannot attain good defense numbers however. (also factoring in slow, -dmg, and heals when I say higher defense, not just defense %, I probably should have said mitigation :P)
As for the build, couple things:
Energy Absorbtion: I would suggest 3 recharge in this, seeing as it is an end recovery tool and a defense buff getting it back as often as possible is nice. And you can free up the slots from:
Hibernate: Hibernate is good out of the box, it really doesn't need slotting. A single recharge SO will have it recharging shortly before the nophase debuff wears off, seing as you cant activate hibernate again until the debuff is gone theres no point to more recharge. Don't think it needs heals either but I could see the value in it returning you to full health faster. It heals you at a rate comparable to rest for the record.
Those are the only two things that really jumped out at me.
Ice is hard to beat out of the box.
With SOs only you can soft cap to almost everything a nice DP/Aid Self clone, and a combat phase/rest. Unlimitted blue bar is pretty sweet to.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
I'm interested in playing a solid team tank, but I'm sick of my stone/stone behemoth. Before I roll Shield/WM like everyone else, is ice/ice worth trying? I like the look of the ice sets, and it would be nice to stand out a bit. But the end cost and lack of psi protection are troubling... This will be an alt, so I won't be slotting IO sets; I'm looking for a competent pickup group tank, not a tricked-out TF superstar. Also, can I leave Chilling Embrace on while herding?
One last question: any recent ice/ice guides out there? Tundara's looks great but it's over two years old.