Mission Architect: Realistic Solution
By
Alpha_A,
Posted on: 2009-05-26 03:53 in The Global Training Room Test Server
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I even started working an arc that was ment to train stalkers but I got it on hold until I see where they are going with this ticket cap thing.
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That was you? Interesting. Granted, I was an idiot and tested it out with a Blaster (and died promptly) but when I get some time I'll have to test it the right way.
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I even started working an arc that was ment to train stalkers but I got it on hold until I see where they are going with this ticket cap thing.
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That was you? Interesting. Granted, I was an idiot and tested it out with a Blaster (and died promptly) but when I get some time I'll have to test it the right way.
[/ QUOTE ]Its no longer up due to the whole if you make a farm you get banned thing. The initial version was an all boss mission. When I redo it, its going to be so far from a farm that people wont have any reason to think of reporting it.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Missions with 25 ambushes of nothing but huge spawns of multi-faction LTs.
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That's it? Geesh, and I've been working on the mish with 25 ambushes of nothing but huge spawns of multi-faction EB's.... (kids, do not do this at home)
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Takes too long. XP/min ratio is all screwed up. I don't have any ambushes in my all boss map. I dig that one. It showed me the truth in defense being superior to dam-res. When all you have is dam-res, debuffs will tear you a new one in no time. Defense just laughs and keeps on trucking.
Be well, people of CoH.
Hmm, must be someone else's Stalker mission since I see one up. No problem. I'll check out yours if you get a chance to republish.
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I even started working an arc that was ment to train stalkers but I got it on hold until I see where they are going with this ticket cap thing.
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That was you? Interesting. Granted, I was an idiot and tested it out with a Blaster (and died promptly) but when I get some time I'll have to test it the right way.
[/ QUOTE ]Its no longer up due to the whole if you make a farm you get banned thing. The initial version was an all boss mission. When I redo it, its going to be so far from a farm that people wont have any reason to think of reporting it.
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I wouldn't get my hopes up on that, ER. Folks are apparently calling all AV maps farms since a properly built team can tear through them in no time for truly ridiculous rewards.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I even started working an arc that was ment to train stalkers but I got it on hold until I see where they are going with this ticket cap thing.
[/ QUOTE ]
That was you? Interesting. Granted, I was an idiot and tested it out with a Blaster (and died promptly) but when I get some time I'll have to test it the right way.
[/ QUOTE ]Its no longer up due to the whole if you make a farm you get banned thing. The initial version was an all boss mission. When I redo it, its going to be so far from a farm that people wont have any reason to think of reporting it.
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I wouldn't get my hopes up on that, ER. Folks are apparently calling all AV maps farms since a properly built team can tear through them in no time for truly ridiculous rewards.
[/ QUOTE ]The thing is I will be building the mission off using the most nastiest critters possible in terms of what they can do to players, these are typically the targets you want dead first. But when the entire faction consists of nothing but said critters there is no way anyone is gonna consider it a farm unless they are crazy. Besides its going to scale with level too from lvl 20 all the way to lvl 50 if I can squeeze it 5 missions. Thats kind of what I am wanting to do but its going to all be based on what they set the ticket cap to in i15.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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I think you need to look at the bigger picture, some of us arent using the AE to farm but to create challenging non-wussified content unlike what the devs created in the past. So if I create a bunch of misisons with luietents set to extreme with deadly powersets does that classify me as a farmer?
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Nope. And I'm sure there were legitimate missions that used the Vampire incubators and snake eggs too.
It's obvious the honor system doesn't work for curbing farming/PLing. The safest thing to do is to put in controls that simply make certain types of exploits impossible. I am 100% sure there are lots of legitimate story-based arcs out there that have maps with all minions or all LTs or all bosses on them. But the truth is that most of the farming also uses maps of that type. So don't be surprised to see them go.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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I think you need to look at the bigger picture, some of us arent using the AE to farm but to create challenging non-wussified content unlike what the devs created in the past. So if I create a bunch of misisons with luietents set to extreme with deadly powersets does that classify me as a farmer?
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Nope. And I'm sure there were legitimate missions that used the Vampire incubators and snake eggs too.
It's obvious the honor system doesn't work for curbing farming/PLing. The safest thing to do is to put in controls that simply make certain types of exploits impossible. I am 100% sure there are lots of legitimate story-based arcs out there that have maps with all minions or all LTs or all bosses on them. But the truth is that most of the farming also uses maps of that type. So don't be surprised to see them go.
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Actually I think those things were taken out just so the devs could rebuild them WITH CONTROLS for just as you stated.
Wouldn't surprise me if some more control will be taken from authors.
Unfortunate, but preferrable to the situation we are currently in.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I think it's too late, at this point, honestly. Nice solution: logical, reasonable.
But we have reached the point of no return, alas. We witnessed knee-jerk reactions and counter-actions, stormy waters that cannot be recalled for recycling.
For me, I never really felt the allure of MA because, though the content was rearranged and original dialogue was injected, the content remained the same. The same as the game. Yeah, sure, I've tried my hand at writing a couple of stories---but with no enthusiasm for either the process or the product.
Best we can hope for at this point is for I15 and Rogue to wash away the bitterness and memories.
As for me, I'm done with the MA. My entire SG/VG refuses to use it for any purpose, now. Quickly, the MA buildings are nearly completely empty like the arenas. Sure, a handful use it and will continue to do so, regardless. But the throngs of players and writers are no more.
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^ This. I completely agree up until one point. It may just be my server (Free-dumb) but MA is more crowded then ever lately. Heck, my whole computer slows to almost a halt with all of the lag. I cant even see my conversations if I'm in AE. All you can see is "lvl 8 lff puleze!!!!!!!" written over and over.
I tried a few AE teams today due to the fact that I could not find any normal teams and could not form a decent TF. The three teams that I was on were all lead by lvl 10-30s who insisted that a lvl 11 /wp tank could handle a lvl 52 boss farm. Needless to say, they all ended badly. Whether it was from noob players who wouldn't listen and decided to charge mobs or lowbies who decide to go afk and leech. AE has really made this game sad. The OP's idea is nice, but i can't see this happening, I mean the devs would have to actually admit that they made a mistake. On top of that, I think that most of the players will continue to be stubborn and wring out all of the juicy AE rewards they can and then log and switch toons.....but hey, thats just my opinion.
-Mada
"People are like stained-glass windows.
They sparkle and shine when the sun is out,
but when the darkness sets in their true beauty is revealed only if there is
light from within"
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I even started working an arc that was ment to train stalkers but I got it on hold until I see where they are going with this ticket cap thing.
[/ QUOTE ]
That was you? Interesting. Granted, I was an idiot and tested it out with a Blaster (and died promptly) but when I get some time I'll have to test it the right way.
[/ QUOTE ]Its no longer up due to the whole if you make a farm you get banned thing. The initial version was an all boss mission. When I redo it, its going to be so far from a farm that people wont have any reason to think of reporting it.
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I wouldn't get my hopes up on that, ER. Folks are apparently calling all AV maps farms since a properly built team can tear through them in no time for truly ridiculous rewards.
[/ QUOTE ]The thing is I will be building the mission off using the most nastiest critters possible in terms of what they can do to players, these are typically the targets you want dead first. But when the entire faction consists of nothing but said critters there is no way anyone is gonna consider it a farm unless they are crazy. Besides its going to scale with level too from lvl 20 all the way to lvl 50 if I can squeeze it 5 missions. Thats kind of what I am wanting to do but its going to all be based on what they set the ticket cap to in i15.
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Just be careful, if someone builds a team that can crush it then it is an exploit... maybe...we don't know...
This suggestion seems the very definition of aberent play.
It would allow players to farm mobs for badges but force those who also want experience to keep leaving every day after so many missions. Or alternately just farm mobs till they get badge regardless of exp.
Most badgers really don't care about experience/inf if they can get the badge faster. That is the problem with "count" style badges.
If I had a MA mission with all Master Illusionists (who would all be Leuts on Heroic) in it, do you really think anyone in their right mind would get the Illusionist badge the old way?
If you allow MA mobs to count toward badges they will be farmed, unrelentingly. I'm not saying I agree with the old count badges. Some are just too painful to be fun, or are counter intuitive: why have a major badge for taking damage instead of dealing it (or have it at all)?
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
A daily limit is too limiting and inherently unfair. A better gauge is to determine what an "excessive" reward rate is, and apply a diminishing returns decrease once you start exceeding that rate (much like ED on enhancements, or the diminishing returns on task force rewards).
For example, let's say that the "excessive" reward rate for tickets is T, and is measured in tickets per minute. The system would keep a 'rolling average' on these rewards over, say, the last 10, 30 or 60 minutes (the devs would need to figure out what's best). When your reward rate exceeds T all your defeat ticket rewards would be halved. When it exceeds T x 1.5 (or 1.25, or whatever) the rewards would be divided by 4, and so on for additional .5 (or .25) increments of T.
This reduction would not apply to the ticket reward at the end of the mission (the setting of T would be calculated based on this assumption).
This same logic can be applied to experience and influence rewards, producing target rates for earning experience E and Influence I. These limits could be adopted over the entire game and would allow even finer-tuning of the leveling rate. This would provide a general solution to the farming/PLing problem.
The diminishing returns idea is much more acceptable than the hard cap, and is consistent with the rest of the game's limits on rewards. The devs probably considered it, but since it requires a lot of changes, it wouldn't have been possible to put into a patch between issues.
As long as the values of T, E, and I are chosen for large but reasonable values, no one can justifiably complain about it. Especially considering that the most egregious abuses of fast leveling occur in farm missions where characters are SKed to 46s and stand around and do nothing except collect experience.
The easiest way to figure these values is to ask "How many hours is it reasonable for a character to reach level 50?" Whatever number that is, pick the value of E that would get you there, assuming that all you did was defeat enemies. Then choose T according to the value that corresponds to this value of E.
These values would need to be tuned for each level to give the desired rate of progression over the life of a character. Five levels of experience per hour is fine for level 1-10, but not so fine for level 45.
I think we can all agree that there should be some minimum number of hours to go from level 1 to level 50. If your experience rate decreases due to diminishing returns you may still level faster than that number of hours, but you won't be able to do it in half that time.
Then the devs could actually define that number of hours. If you're leveling faster than that you're exploiting the system. And the system would then have the mechanism to prevent it once and for all.
Then we could all stop arguing about farming....
QR
This is the very definition of a solution searching for a problem. The per mission ticket cap is more than enough capping. They made public advertisements about going 1-50 in MA alone doing "anything" to cap xp or rewards is counter productive to that advertisement.
Think in terms of caps on rewards for PvE content per day and you will realize just how much this kind of call for nerfing disguised as an "realistic solution" is as far from that as can possibly be.
Just play the game.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
I wish we can opt to have missions we make not be rated. I don't want people I don't know rating them. It's just stupid that I have to deal with that or someone has to message me complaining how hard something is (that I can solo or duo with no problems.) I don't make my missions for everyone just for me and maybe 1 friend and I DO want the experience, infamy and even debt from mistakes in battle but I don't want some strangers rating my missions bad because they are too small minded or too poor a player to complete them. It's frustrating me so much. Testing them would be fine if we got the exp/inf for it. I could care less about the little ticket system or badges that are worthless to me.
TL;DR version:
If further nerfs are necessary to prevent farming, I'd rather have a solution like the OPs instead of random nerfs that reportedly 'only hurt the casual player and do not do their job'.
I think the principle of the OPs Idea is a good one; just don't get hung up on the specific numbers.
It's this simple:
1: Either there is a speed of rewards acquisition that is simply 'too fast', or there is not.
Risk/reward is not a factor; either it's perfectly fine for everyone in the game to constantly replay a non-exploitative mission that gives them enough tickets to level to 50 and purple out in a day (if it is indeed possible to create such a mission, and it may be), or it is not.
2: If it is not fine for everyone to max out in a day, then either the controls on farming are sufficient to that task or they are not.
If they are sufficient, then we will never see any speed-related nerfs and the OP is harmless. If they are not sufficient, then means that are sufficient WILL be put in place (the Devs have to or eventually wake up one day to find the game hopelessly broken) and it's just a matter of choosing your preferred flavor of nerf. In any case, datamining will tell.
3: The numbers don't matter.
If there is some speed of rewards gain that is simply too fast, the Devs should hopefullly know what it is by now. Bill Z may be over that limit, and if so his style of play is simply an outlier (but we knew that ). However, that doesn't matter: either his advancement is within the allowable limits to the game such that absolutely everyone should be able to advance that fast (if they had the skillz) or it is simply too fast; too bad, too sad.
CONCLUSION: If there is an advancement 'speed limit' that is necessary for the game, and IF the current code does not adequately address it, then code like the OPs suggestion not only should be put into place, but also NEEDs to be put into place. This is because if it is not, then OTHER code that will likely be a less intuitive, more intrusive solution will be put into place instead.
If a speed limit were ever imposed, I am sure it could be so high that a casual player who simply plays a lot would never know it had been implemented, and it would be low enough to tell the fastest currently possible farming maps to "Slow down, son!"
There is nothing wrong with farming...
unless the activity itself hurts the game...
...or the Dev's reactions to it hurt the game.
However, the Devs are not going to "just get over it" any more than the farmers are going to "just slow down."
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
The devs came out and said ok things are going to fast. We are removing the major cause of things going too fast (outliers in xp/inf) and placing a per mission ticket cap.
Since the per mission ticket cap was inacted, the only people complaining about speed of other players leveling or players rewards are other players.
The only people saying slow down to players now is other players not the devs. I think that is an important fact everyone needs to recognize.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Actually what I was always wondering is why custom enemies got WAY more exp than regular ones in the first place?
I mean if it was on par with other enemy groups I think this wouldn't have happened.
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Actually what I was always wondering is why custom enemies got WAY more exp than regular ones in the first place?
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They didn't. What gave you that idea?
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
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Actually what I was always wondering is why custom enemies got WAY more exp than regular ones in the first place?
I mean if it was on par with other enemy groups I think this wouldn't have happened.
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They don't. Some PvE critters give higher than normal amounts of xp/inf but not MA critters. They never gave more xp/inf than PvE critters.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Actually what I was always wondering is why custom enemies got WAY more exp than regular ones in the first place?
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They don't and never did.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Do you remember what Croatoa was like with the Speed KHTFs? That's what the AE would be like under your proposal. It wouldn't fix anything. It'd be constant non-stop farming. But after someone hit their daily cap, they'd go on to other things just like people did with KHTF.
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For the record, Making a 20 min mission that gives you the same reward as the Statesman Task Force/Recluse Taskforce and Shard TF's or better is what got all this mess started in the first place.
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First, you posted your OP in the wrong forum. Should've posted to Suggestions.
Second, you pointed out that in the original implementation it was trivial to create 20 minute missions that gave the same rewards as the most difficult TFs in the game. And your suggestion is to revert back to that system?
The changes the devs made have been steps in the right direction. They just need to change it to prevent maps of all one rank (i.e. no more all-boss, or all-LT or all-minion maps) and eliminate the auto-SK system.
[/ QUOTE ]I think you need to look at the bigger picture, some of us arent using the AE to farm but to create challenging non-wussified content unlike what the devs created in the past. So if I create a bunch of misisons with luietents set to extreme with deadly powersets does that classify me as a farmer? I even started working an arc that was ment to train stalkers but I got it on hold until I see where they are going with this ticket cap thing. Its got nothing but all the same rank critters but I picked the most deadly of certain groups. Does that make me a farmer? So really your solution stinks for what I am trying to do here.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!