Temporary option for the ladder
By
EmpireForgotten,
Posted on: 2009-05-19 08:06 in Everything about PvP
*I can't beleive Im actually going to say this*
Given the current options that we have (Supression on/off, DR on/off) I think No supression on and no DR off would provide the forum for more diverse lineups than what we see now.
I would personally like to see a No global resists or a No heal decay button, but I doubt we would get those.
Having DR on just requires phase shift to be used more. Disruption teams (end stealing/slowing/minus tohit'ing) can actually do something.
Its really sad that PvP has come to either having a broken game mechanic used or having to ban powers to fix the broken game mechanic.
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Just play with DR.
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Problem with DR is heal decay. What's gonna beat a team of 5 Blasters?
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2 stalkers, 2 tanks, therm
2 therms, tank, brute, blaster
2 blasters, cold domination, 2 stalkers,
3 thermal corruptors, 2 cold domination corruptors
need i go on. 
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But the point is made. With DR on or Off it does not stop power house line ups. There simply replaced with something new.
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not entirely true. Easy Beezy has worked a few team line ups that don't have stalkers.
DR on Sucks. We did a prac with easy breezy and used 5 blasters mostly soloing the whole match vs their 3 blasters 2 emps. We beat them. That should never happen. I will not play with a system where support is laughable and fight club teams win.
So you guys would rather not ban an unbroken power, but play with a broken system? eg. cap res on squishies.(I'm just playing the devils advocate here btw.) I'm happy either way.
The broken system is less broken then the semi-broken system with broken RES.
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
We would have to practice various lineups like Spec did. If 5 blasters can truely beat all balanced teams, then we have serious problems.
We did beat the 3 blaster 2 emp combo, and we really wernt all on target. Banning the res shield will do nothing though. With no unresisted debuffs tough, therms, and sonics will bring us back up to the cap. Dr on in 5v5 may work vs 5 blasters but it would take testing and even then I dont know. The way I see it 4 blasters locking fast on 1 target will kill any toon in the game quick. I say 4 because the other team will be killing the 5th. It just a matter of who is faster which does take skill but ehhh. I am kinda bored of the duel stalker teams as well. Perhaps we are looking the wrong way in looking for a 12 button. If we went DR on no TS AND no repeating AT we may have some fun. We will see the rise of some very good tanks, brutes, and other toons not played atm. It would be very fun thinking of teams to do this. It will also take polished skill on the AT you are playing.
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DR on Sucks. We did a prac with easy breezy and used 5 blasters mostly soloing the whole match vs their 3 blasters 2 emps. We beat them. That should never happen. I will not play with a system where support is laughable and fight club teams win.
So you guys would rather not ban an unbroken power, but play with a broken system? eg. cap res on squishies.(I'm just playing the devils advocate here btw.) I'm happy either way.
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So it doesn't work cause u tried against 1 other team? It sux cause u can't use emps? Emps with base res is one of the main reasons this is a problem. I think this woulda turned different if u had at least 2 tanks on the team. Dr on would make other at's and combos viable. Corruptors would be useable a lot, so would tanks and brutes. Hell do 5 blasters vs 5 mm's.
Just like you, im playing devils advocate.
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DR on Sucks. We did a prac with easy breezy and used 5 blasters mostly soloing the whole match vs their 3 blasters 2 emps. We beat them. That should never happen. I will not play with a system where support is laughable and fight club teams win.
So you guys would rather not ban an unbroken power, but play with a broken system? eg. cap res on squishies.(I'm just playing the devils advocate here btw.) I'm happy either way.
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So it doesn't work cause u tried against 1 other team? It sux cause u can't use emps? Emps with base res is one of the main reasons this is a problem. I think this woulda turned different if u had at least 2 tanks on the team. Dr on would make other at's and combos viable. Corruptors would be useable a lot, so would tanks and brutes. Hell do 5 blasters vs 5 mm's.
Just like you, im playing devils advocate.
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No, it sucks because an uncoordinated team of randomly thrown together Blasters can beat a team of coordinated spiking Blasters and two Emps backing them up. Adding Tankers might've made the kill count for the Blaster team lower, but it wouldn't have changed anything, because it would only mean the Emps would have more time to react before their heals started to become worthless.
Emps + base resists aren't the problem. It's the base resists that are. Previously you'd bring along a few Therms and a Sonic and mostly the entire team would have capped resists, but now the some of the role of those buffers is negated because everyone has capped resists anyways.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Yeah, my point wasn't that team A beat team B. It was, as mac said, an uncoordinated team of damage dealers beat a REAL team. Buffers and team member interaction is the whole point of organized pvp. 5 blasters vs 5 MM is just as pointless as 5 blasters vs 5 blasters.
All DR does is make some semi-currently viable things more viable(eg tanks are already useful) and eliminates things that are currently viable eg. emps. It turns the game from how can we survive AND get kills to simply, how can we put out the most damage.
starting new SG
The uncoordinated blasters - who wants in?
Don't mock me Jimmay or I'll beetch slap you back to JaL.
me...you totally need my horible blasting skills ..^____^
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Yeah, my point wasn't that team A beat team B. It was, as mac said, an uncoordinated team of damage dealers beat a REAL team. Buffers and team member interaction is the whole point of organized pvp. 5 blasters vs 5 MM is just as pointless as 5 blasters vs 5 blasters.
All DR does is make some semi-currently viable things more viable(eg tanks are already useful) and eliminates things that are currently viable eg. emps. It turns the game from how can we survive AND get kills to simply, how can we put out the most damage.
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I agree that supports SHOULD have a role in organized pvp. I used to love playing my rad defender on teams. But right now it's already how can we put out the most damage (with stalkers unresisted AS) to deal with these stupid base resistance's that dont go away with DR off. What i ment earlier bout the emps is that with base resistance and fortitude plus no dr'd heals it turns them into tanks that cant be killed unless you cordinate a 2 or 3 stalker DAMAGE spike.
What i was saying before is that dr on (not advacating DR i hate it) would probably put more viable teams on the ladder then with DR off. Even though it makes other toons less viable, i think it would make more toons viable then DR off does right now. You got to way the good with the bad and see which method gives greater viability then the other. They are both gonna be bad, but which is less worse then the other.
ya if yall decide on doing TS on and any version of DR WITH heal decay... i wouldnt play. TS as it is now is dumb, pre i13 TS made sense. Heal decay... well i thnk you all feel about the same with heal decay... it doesnt matter how good or bad of a emp you are.. if the damage doesnt stop coming there is nothing you can do but phase or die after so much time.
I just dont see people looking at the res as replacing the 3 players we are no longer using. People are used to playing either 2 sonic teams(Blue) or 2 therm 1 sonic teams (red) both types of play put the team at res cap and had to use other ways around it. Blue ended up with a lot of 0-0 ties or 1-0 wins the red side ladder had higher scoring games because of unresisted A/S and Scourge. People moaned about res caped teams on blue side but had unresisted debuffs to counter it but still ended up with super low scoring matches. Where red side it was the norm. Just because you "cant" play your blasters does not make for a broken ladder and no way another team will work other than 2 stalker 1 therm 1 emp 1 FFer. For one with PvP IOs the FFer becomes a little less valuable, because forcebolt cant KB. Pre PvP IOs you could slot enough KB protection to protect vs anything else.
If anyone can think of a team that can shut down a stalker and get kills with out them I believe that it would be this crew. The innovative people that have tweeked and played some of the most effective teams in ladder PvP.
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If we went DR on no TS AND no repeating AT we may have some fun.
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DR on. Suppression on. No more than 2 of any AT. No external shield powers.
Go!
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If we went DR on no TS AND no repeating AT we may have some fun.
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DR on. Suppression on. No more than 2 of any AT. No external shield powers.
Go!
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And no blasters.... or blaster but you cant have aim and bu in the build because that +Damage is broken...... Wait Lets just ban all ranged damage sets too. oh wait 2nd though lets all play "Man" build tanks. remember those? that would be SWEET
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If we went DR on no TS AND no repeating AT we may have some fun.
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DR on. Suppression on. No more than 2 of any AT. No external shield powers.
Go!
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i think he said TS off...<_<
okay I think you're exaggerating banning the shields just a bit lol. The point is not to restrict players but to give them more options. If banning one power makes a slew of toons viable how is that a loss in any way? We have the unique oppertunity with the ladder to create pvp as fun as we can make it by making rules within the system to tweak our experience. I'm not saying we need to change the rules all the time but we shouldn't be afraid of doing it either. I'm gonna do more testing before I can really go any further than that though.
Oh and DR on doesn't make many things more viable. It just changes some things that are. If you think for ex that a scrapper would become viable, I would disagree. melee is still melee and will be outperformed by ranged any day. As for tanks/brutes, they are already viable.
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I just dont see people looking at the res as replacing the 3 players we are no longer using. People are used to playing either 2 sonic teams(Blue) or 2 therm 1 sonic teams (red) both types of play put the team at res cap and had to use other ways around it. Blue ended up with a lot of 0-0 ties or 1-0 wins the red side ladder had higher scoring games because of unresisted A/S and Scourge. People moaned about res caped teams on blue side but had unresisted debuffs to counter it but still ended up with super low scoring matches. Where red side it was the norm. Just because you "cant" play your blasters does not make for a broken ladder and no way another team will work other than 2 stalker 1 therm 1 emp 1 FFer. For one with PvP IOs the FFer becomes a little less valuable, because forcebolt cant KB. Pre PvP IOs you could slot enough KB protection to protect vs anything else.
If anyone can think of a team that can shut down a stalker and get kills with out them I believe that it would be this crew. The innovative people that have tweeked and played some of the most effective teams in ladder PvP.
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the biggest change that I see as different is the phase change. Before, phase was only unuseable for 1 minute. I don't remember KB spike being that effective in i12 villains, but we were just starting to get interested in starting our villain team. If I get KB spiked now, in the current ladder, I can phase and usually survive assuming im quick on the phase. Once I come out of phase, I am dead because all they have to do is do it again.
Our counter to the hero double sonic team was storms (well it was our counter for everything really). People usually had capped resists for the first 2 minutes, but after their single kin was so messedup that he couldn't buff again, it let us turn the corner so to speak. If we harrassed someone into hibernation - forget about it they were dead. And whoever came to save them was dead too.
Now, you cant disrupt the capped resists because there is nothing to disrupt - Everyone has it.
I don't have an issue with the capped resists, my issue is that there appears to be only one viable method for consistantly getting kills. You could bring a Gimmick team (Like all Tanks or All Stalkers), but those matches would end in either a 0-0 tie or a '0-1 and lets evade the rest of the time.' Also, once people figure out how to counter the unresisted AS (if you get enough knockback to stop FF's from being viable) What do we have?
Leave the ladder the way it is and lets look at it in a couple months. If we haven't come up with counters by then, we can either append the ladder to work something out or just fold it entirely. The issue that I have with the current PvP is that I am putting my time into something that isn't very fun. We are also completely back where we start when this ladder was formed. We still don't have Support from the people making the game in coordinating this ladder. Its all player driven. So we all don't like the system, but were still putting in the same effort.
I like the idea of letting it stew for a month or so. doing 4-5 offical matches is not enough to say this sucks lets start baning stuff. and yes spec i blew the banning comment out of preportion to make a point.
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I just dont see people looking at the res as replacing the 3 players we are no longer using. People are used to playing either 2 sonic teams(Blue) or 2 therm 1 sonic teams (red) both types of play put the team at res cap and had to use other ways around it. Blue ended up with a lot of 0-0 ties or 1-0 wins the red side ladder had higher scoring games because of unresisted A/S and Scourge. People moaned about res caped teams on blue side but had unresisted debuffs to counter it but still ended up with super low scoring matches. Where red side it was the norm. Just because you "cant" play your blasters does not make for a broken ladder and no way another team will work other than 2 stalker 1 therm 1 emp 1 FFer. For one with PvP IOs the FFer becomes a little less valuable, because forcebolt cant KB. Pre PvP IOs you could slot enough KB protection to protect vs anything else.
If anyone can think of a team that can shut down a stalker and get kills with out them I believe that it would be this crew. The innovative people that have tweeked and played some of the most effective teams in ladder PvP.
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The last time i checked you guys were running a stalker team in the tourney? am i wrong?
We have been trying diff run and gun, therms, pretty much anything that seems viable against a stalker team. Yet, every practice with renegadez ends the same. Emps have cap res, we cant do enough damage, therms are countered by another emp, more blasters triggers them to bring a tank to taunt. With no ts, keeping up with a stalker after a as is pretty stupidly broken.
If we ban the res shields that at least takes one other toon to either give cap res or try something diff. Fighting with dr on is so retarded im not even going to give a reason. As it sits right now, you have to bring a stalker team if you wanna compete, until they decide to bring a auto resist removal button or heal decay removal from dr, banning res shields is the way to go i say.
Yes we ran a stalker team.... easy was the only team to not. and i have said many times I like stalker teams. All ways have. We also were playing our live builds in that kick off event. Ah well..... We can go round and round like this. Only way is to put it to a vote of leaders from teams.
LoLVirtue votes no to banning a power that is not broken or bugged.
But the point is made. With DR on or Off it does not stop power house line ups. There simply replaced with something new.