Inv. in the long run but shield has better smash
Invulnerability, easily. Shields are more for a damage dealing / small team tanker. On a large team, they will need team buffs (useful buffs, i.e. not Kinetics, and that's getting harder to find.) Invulnerability now is once more probably second to Stone for large team survivability.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
I ran in an ITF yesterday with a Shields Tanker (I'm an Inv Tanker). The Shields Tanker died 5 or 6 times. I never died.
I'd say Invuln.
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I ran in an ITF yesterday with a Shields Tanker (I'm an Inv Tanker). The Shields Tanker died 5 or 6 times. I never died.
I'd say Invuln.
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Well, that may not be a fair comparison, considering all of the S/L damage that the Cimerorans do, and the nasty Def Debuffs that they have.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
I ran an ITF a few days ago as a Shields Tanker. Never died. Not even tanking Rommie. Had an easier time than even my Inv Tanker.
Depends on the player, depends on the build. Out of the box, Inv has better survivability. I just built my Shields a bit better. Both are SS, so it has nothing to do with secondary.
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I ran an ITF a few days ago as a Shields Tanker. Never died. Not even tanking Rommie. Had an easier time than even my Inv Tanker.
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Did you have a defender or controller who wasn't Kinetics? 
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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I ran an ITF a few days ago as a Shields Tanker. Never died. Not even tanking Rommie. Had an easier time than even my Inv Tanker.
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Did you have a defender or controller who wasn't Kinetics?
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One note ... I've never been on an ITF yet with a Defender (cry).
Having said that, I consider the ITF a *baseline* for tanking. All s/l damage, limited debuffs, non-range heavy mobs. If your Tanker is having problems running through the ITF, then there is either something wrong with the way you built your Tanker or something wrong with the Tanker primary itself.
And some form of support is needed for tanking Romi in general. I couldn't see a non-supported Tanker of any type (unless really purpled out and even then probably not because of how far he can floor your defense). And I include the traditional "holding" method as support here.
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I ran an ITF a few days ago as a Shields Tanker. Never died. Not even tanking Rommie. Had an easier time than even my Inv Tanker.
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Did you have a defender or controller who wasn't Kinetics?
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One note ... I've never been on an ITF yet with a Defender (cry).
Having said that, I consider the ITF a *baseline* for tanking. All s/l damage, limited debuffs, non-range heavy mobs. If your Tanker is having problems running through the ITF, then there is either something wrong with the way you built your Tanker or something wrong with the Tanker primary itself.
And some form of support is needed for tanking Romi in general. I couldn't see a non-supported Tanker of any type (unless really purpled out and even then probably not because of how far he can floor your defense). And I include the traditional "holding" method as support here.
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I have seen people tank romulus on tanks with no support easily. I have seen people tank romulus on non-tanks with no support easily. It comes down to the player's skill ultimately.
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And some form of support is needed for tanking Romi in general. I couldn't see a non-supported Tanker of any type (unless really purpled out and even then probably not because of how far he can floor your defense). And I include the traditional "holding" method as support here.
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Barring hideous bad luck, my Stone can handle Tower-Recluse. You seem to be raising some sort of challenge against a safer target.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
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I ran an ITF a few days ago as a Shields Tanker. Never died. Not even tanking Rommie. Had an easier time than even my Inv Tanker.
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Did you have a defender or controller who wasn't Kinetics?
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No more than I did with the Inv. The ITF isn't really all that hard to tank if the rest of the team is doing the smart thing and ripping at Rommie as much as they can.
In my peronal opinion, a well-built Invulnerability tank will outlast a well-built Shield tanker. That being said, a well-built Shield tanker should be able to withstand most, if not all, of this game's content.
Take that as you will.
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I ran an ITF a few days ago as a Shields Tanker. Never died. Not even tanking Rommie. Had an easier time than even my Inv Tanker.
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Did you have a defender or controller who wasn't Kinetics?
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One note ... I've never been on an ITF yet with a Defender (cry).
Having said that, I consider the ITF a *baseline* for tanking. All s/l damage, limited debuffs, non-range heavy mobs. If your Tanker is having problems running through the ITF, then there is either something wrong with the way you built your Tanker or something wrong with the Tanker primary itself.
And some form of support is needed for tanking Romi in general. I couldn't see a non-supported Tanker of any type (unless really purpled out and even then probably not because of how far he can floor your defense). And I include the traditional "holding" method as support here.
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I have seen people tank romulus on tanks with no support easily. I have seen people tank romulus on non-tanks with no support easily. It comes down to the player's skill ultimately.
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I'm sure you've seen astronauts walk in space without a suit too but I still call BS. Seriously.
LostHalo: Take your Stone Tanker (lets assume normal mix of yellow and orange IO sets) and do Romi with a group composed of Blasters/Scrappers.
Then you'll see what I mean by unsupported.
I don't include full purple sets in my examples because the *majority* of Tankers don't have them. I think we can all agree if you have enough purples you can be just like an I1 Tanker (by and large).
As far as player skill (and not to demean anyone here) there just isn't that much skill involved in this game. The last few TFs that CoH made are really the only examples where you have to *attempt* to know the fight and even then they are fairly easy examples to learn.
The real skill involved in Tanking boils down to this in my experience (and in order of importance): 1) how you built/slot your Tanker; 2) How to position your Tanker for the less then handful of fights in CoH where positioning is important; 3) Knowing when/how to pop an inspiration (and the fact that I even mention that pretty much sums up the difficulty rating of this game).
My SD scrapper can tank Rommie without support. It's not that hard. An SD tanker should be able to do it easily if built well.
That said, Invulnerability is a lot more survivable, but it doesn't add much offense, which Shield Defense does.
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My SD scrapper can tank Rommie without support. It's not that hard. An SD tanker should be able to do it easily if built well.
That said, Invulnerability is a lot more survivable, but it doesn't add much offense, which Shield Defense does.
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I'll decline the obvious retort. See above however.
And +toHit (Invincibility) doesn't count towards offense? How much more damage does a Shield Tanker do again when he misses?
Edit: Actually I could see where a DM/Shields Scrapper who is built well could tank Romi possibly unsupported (same with Shields/DM Tanker). The likelihood of it happening through Romi's 3 ressurections is extremely improbable. Mind telling me how you did it if you'd be so kind?
Kruunch, did you just call BS on people doing something and in the same breath said there's no player skill in this game ?
... Anyway. To post something constructive, purples haven't much to do with survivability. Most of the bonuses are damage, recharge and accuracy, with some HP in a ranged set, some fire/cold res (useless against Rommie), some toxic/psi res in the 6th slot (useless against Rommie and I hardly see anyone 6 slotting a purple set).
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Kruunch, did you just call BS on people doing something and in the same breath said there's no player skill in this game ?
... Anyway. To post something constructive, purples haven't much to do with survivability. Most of the bonuses are damage, recharge and accuracy, with some HP in a ranged set, some fire/cold res (useless against Rommie), some toxic/psi res in the 6th slot (useless against Rommie and I hardly see anyone 6 slotting a purple set).
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Yes I called BS on people and their BS.
What does that have to do with skill or were you commenting on me calling BS on their skill at BSing?
And I would say perma Hasten and huge Recovery bonuses (not to mention I1 like recharge on abilities on top of perma Hasten) play a huge part in Tanking.
Or are you gonna tell me about your three legged parapalegic monkey who can tank Romi with no endurance now?
My personal opinion now is you're out of touch with the game, and you seem so proud of having been playing the game in I1 you won't listen to any experience that is different to your own. So I won't try to tell you anything.
I'll suggest, however, that if you want to participate in serious discussions about performance, you should play the game more often and take a look at real numbers, using the ingame attribute monitor, paragonwiki or coh.redtomax - for example, you might see that these "huge" recovery bonuses from purple sets are about 4%, or that Shield and Willpower have no power benefiting from recharge bonuses.
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I ran in an ITF yesterday with a Shields Tanker (I'm an Inv Tanker). The Shields Tanker died 5 or 6 times. I never died.
I'd say Invuln.
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Well, that may not be a fair comparison, considering all of the S/L damage that the Cimerorans do, and the nasty Def Debuffs that they have.
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Yeah, that's a pretty harsh TF for a defense set. I ran that on my invuln with the combat monitor running - those guys got my defense as low as -100% a couple times. They ROUTINELY had it below -50%. Of course, it didn't do them a lick of good against 90% S/L. 
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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My personal opinion now is you're out of touch with the game, and you seem so proud of having been playing the game in I1 you won't listen to any experience that is different to your own. So I won't try to tell you anything.
I'll suggest, however, that if you want to participate in serious discussions about performance, you should play the game more often and take a look at real numbers, using the ingame attribute monitor, paragonwiki or coh.redtomax - for example, you might see that these "huge" recovery bonuses from purple sets are about 4%, or that Shield and Willpower have no power benefiting from recharge bonuses.
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Ahhhh the cry of the anguished who are disagreed with.
Here is what my experience is and this is from beta and I1, and again in I4 when I came back, and again in I7 when I came back and yet again in I13 when I came back (I've been back and playing almost everyday since March by the way):
When you tell someone they can't do something, 90% of those who disagree run up here and claim the impossible just to "prove" that it can be done. I used to spend time debunking a lot of those crap posts in-game and now I just call BS when it sounds and smells like BS. Like all those who have posted Mid's builds which they thought would work only to admit they didn't even run those builds (and/or their precious respecs didn't hold up to what they were bragging about when side by side with me).
5% of those who disagree rush up here to post what they've done only to find out that they (and me) had misconceptions of what was originally posted. Havoc (an old time tanker) got really annoyed when I said that an I1 Regen Scrapper couldn't tank what I could, so he ran out and grabbed up 40 nemesis and solo'd them down (not run and gun). I then took him to Crey's Folley and pulled over 100 Freakshow and solo'd those (ever so much more slowly). He tried the samething and got flattened. He was making the point that his Scrapper could tank all but the most extreme encounters in the game, while I was making the point that I could tank things his Scrapper couldn't. A miscommunication on both our parts (since both our points were valid).
4% can actually do what they say they can do, but usually under optimal conditions (i.e. support).
The last 1% actually can do what they claim under the conditions that were discussed and actually prove me wrong (it's actually less then 1% since this has only happened to me once).
So turning what you said back on yourself, I'd suggest if *you* want to participate in serious discussions, you actually listen to those who have had more experience in the game then you have.
P.S. - Anyone who doesn't acknowledge that a Tanker's secondary is a huge part of their tanking ability doesn't even belong in this forum. Your recharge comment is so ridiculous as to merit it's own definition in Webster's Dictionary.
As long as we are talking about tanking Rom and not which is the better survivor, (INV BTW for my vote), I would like it noted that I have tanked Rom on my Spine/Fire scrapper where the team buildup was me, one kin def, and 6 blasters.... (epic battle btw for a scrap
I have also seen a team of defenders take him with no deaths. I have also seen him completely destroy a WP tank...
Rom is not the hardest thing on the game to tank.
Hell I have a harder time with WP/PSI bosses in my AE Mish.... those frackers are HARD!
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My personal opinion now is you're out of touch with the game, and you seem so proud of having been playing the game in I1 you won't listen to any experience that is different to your own. So I won't try to tell you anything.
I'll suggest, however, that if you want to participate in serious discussions about performance, you should play the game more often and take a look at real numbers, using the ingame attribute monitor, paragonwiki or coh.redtomax - for example, you might see that these "huge" recovery bonuses from purple sets are about 4%, or that Shield and Willpower have no power benefiting from recharge bonuses.
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Ahhhh the cry of the anguished who are disagreed with.
Here is what my experience is and this is from beta and I1, and again in I4 when I came back, and again in I7 when I came back and yet again in I13 when I came back (I've been back and playing almost everyday since March by the way):
When you tell someone they can't do something, 90% of those who disagree run up here and claim the impossible just to "prove" that it can be done. I used to spend time debunking a lot of those crap posts in-game and now I just call BS when it sounds and smells like BS. Like all those who have posted Mid's builds which they thought would work only to admit they didn't even run those builds (and/or their precious respecs didn't hold up to what they were bragging about when side by side with me).
5% of those who disagree rush up here to post what they've done only to find out that they (and me) had misconceptions of what was originally posted. Havoc (an old time tanker) got really annoyed when I said that an I1 Regen Scrapper couldn't tank what I could, so he ran out and grabbed up 40 nemesis and solo'd them down (not run and gun). I then took him to Crey's Folley and pulled over 100 Freakshow and solo'd those (ever so much more slowly). He tried the samething and got flattened. He was making the point that his Scrapper could tank all but the most extreme encounters in the game, while I was making the point that I could tank things his Scrapper couldn't. A miscommunication on both our parts (since both our points were valid).
4% can actually do what they say they can do, but usually under optimal conditions (i.e. support).
The last 1% actually can do what they claim under the conditions that were discussed and actually prove me wrong (it's actually less then 1% since this has only happened to me once).
So turning what you said back on yourself, I'd suggest if *you* want to participate in serious discussions, you actually listen to those who have had more experience in the game then you have.
P.S. - Anyone who doesn't acknowledge that a Tanker's secondary is a huge part of their tanking ability doesn't even belong in this forum. Your recharge comment is so ridiculous as to merit it's own definition in Webster's Dictionary.
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I hate the "I was here longer" argument. I have been playing this game from beta as well and I still learn a lot from people on these forums; new and old members. Worst argument in the forums IMO is time in the forums. Check my date there Kruunch. Oh and by the way...
MY TANK CAN SOLO ROMI!
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My personal opinion now is you're out of touch with the game, and you seem so proud of having been playing the game in I1 you won't listen to any experience that is different to your own. So I won't try to tell you anything.
I'll suggest, however, that if you want to participate in serious discussions about performance, you should play the game more often and take a look at real numbers, using the ingame attribute monitor, paragonwiki or coh.redtomax - for example, you might see that these "huge" recovery bonuses from purple sets are about 4%, or that Shield and Willpower have no power benefiting from recharge bonuses.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ahhhh the cry of the anguished who are disagreed with.
Here is what my experience is and this is from beta and I1, and again in I4 when I came back, and again in I7 when I came back and yet again in I13 when I came back (I've been back and playing almost everyday since March by the way):
When you tell someone they can't do something, 90% of those who disagree run up here and claim the impossible just to "prove" that it can be done. I used to spend time debunking a lot of those crap posts in-game and now I just call BS when it sounds and smells like BS. Like all those who have posted Mid's builds which they thought would work only to admit they didn't even run those builds (and/or their precious respecs didn't hold up to what they were bragging about when side by side with me).
5% of those who disagree rush up here to post what they've done only to find out that they (and me) had misconceptions of what was originally posted. Havoc (an old time tanker) got really annoyed when I said that an I1 Regen Scrapper couldn't tank what I could, so he ran out and grabbed up 40 nemesis and solo'd them down (not run and gun). I then took him to Crey's Folley and pulled over 100 Freakshow and solo'd those (ever so much more slowly). He tried the samething and got flattened. He was making the point that his Scrapper could tank all but the most extreme encounters in the game, while I was making the point that I could tank things his Scrapper couldn't. A miscommunication on both our parts (since both our points were valid).
4% can actually do what they say they can do, but usually under optimal conditions (i.e. support).
The last 1% actually can do what they claim under the conditions that were discussed and actually prove me wrong (it's actually less then 1% since this has only happened to me once).
So turning what you said back on yourself, I'd suggest if *you* want to participate in serious discussions, you actually listen to those who have had more experience in the game then you have.
P.S. - Anyone who doesn't acknowledge that a Tanker's secondary is a huge part of their tanking ability doesn't even belong in this forum. Your recharge comment is so ridiculous as to merit it's own definition in Webster's Dictionary.
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that's just nihili for ya kruunch. for someone whos been here a relatively short time he's alittle too arrogant.
your posts are always welcome and informative
Kruunch, I have to disagree with you on Romy; there are several tanker primaries that can tank him unsupported. I've done it several times with a Stone/Fire and a team of 7 damage dealers... no buffs/debuffs at all. I've also done it with CMA, my Inv/Stone tanker, also without support... but I'll admit the latter case was after respec'ing into my soft capped def build. I did use about 5-6 inspirations with CMA over the course of killing Rommy 4 times but the Stone/Fire only used Earth's Embrace once and never popped any pills.
A non-soft capped Inv will have problems though... I'll grant you that my i12 build required some assistance. The Stone/Fire tanker was running a SO/HO build though, no IO bonuses at all.
Both of those tanks have also tanked Lord Recluse unsupported while the team takes the towers down... it just takes going into the encounter with an appropriate inspiration loadout. The Inv obviously needs more than the Stone... all I need for the Stone is a half dozen small/medium purples until the team kills the blue tower. I've actually done it once with the Stoner without any inspirations, just one well timed Earth's Embrace. That was a case of a lucky run with the random number generator.
These are of course edge cases, and Stone's durability really is up to anything. I wouldn't say no to support of course, but I can do the job without anything beyond the inherent toughness and the occasional inspiration.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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MY TANK CAN SOLO ROMI!
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I've always found that experience pretty much trumps everything.
And for those that don't BS ... they usually back it up with how/where/why and so forth.
That wouldn't be you btw.
which is better for survival ?