Badge Issues tangent thread - Fabricator

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No. You are incorrectly stating my view.
I never said anything about "easy".

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How should I have interpreted the word 'easily' in the following?

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I'm not convinced that one example means it's generally easily achievable.

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perhaps you should have interpreted it without removing the line from Catwhoorg that I was replying too.

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Just for reference:
My first field crafter redside got it before 25.
Before 40 is easily achievable

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I'm not convinced that one example means it's generally easily achievable.

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a little context goes a long way.

*I* didn't say I wanted them easily. I was addressing Cat's use of the word.

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I am still reading this as "the fruit just isn't hanging low enough for me yet, but I should have the fruit anyway."

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I don't want them easy. I don't want them stumbled upon. But I want them in a reasonable amount of time when taking Epic actions.
I'll illustrate with Snow's Empath numbers. Take someone healing at some level of awesomeness, say like healing a whole ITF - it's not balancing based on someone with just O2 Boost. Currently Empath would be 1000 of the same ITF on that same character. That's probably quite excessive. Is it asking for a reduction to 2 runs? That's silly. However, you seem to think that's what I'm talking about, even over my repeated insistence it's not, and I have no idea why. A reasonable number may be 50 such runs.
Moving that comparison to a frequent crafter in normal usage, how much time does he need at his rather high rate? Well, it used to be aiming at 500 gameplay hours (which felt OK), now it's 2500. 2500 hours seems a bit excessive, bringing it back to 500 would be nice. Course, if the devs put in many more crafting opportunities to increase my crafting 5-fold, that would have the same result, but it seems less likely than changing 1 number.

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maybe our differences lie in the definitions of reasonable and epic.

Reasonable: not exceeding the limit prescribed by reason; not excessive

Epic: heroic; majestic; impressively great: of unusually great size or extent:



It seems to me you feel that epic level badges should be reasonable.

I do not.


ETA: 50 runs? are you kidding me? unless you are saying it is reasonable to run a task force only twice a month. if those numbers are accurate they seem more than acceptable to me. average of 2 runs a day done in 1.36 years.

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Card Carrying DeFulmenstrator--Member Crazy 88s
We burn more Influence before 8am than you make all day.

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ETA: 50 runs? are you kidding me? unless you are saying it is reasonable to run a task force only twice a month. if those numbers are accurate they seem more than acceptable to me. average of 2 runs a day done in 1.36 years.

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no. Not 50 runs, period. 50 runs under the definition I layed out. Which is, to be clear...

{ an awesome level of action } times { a significantly long time or number of repititions } equals { an epic achievement }

It's not about stumbling on a badge after X amount of time, it's not about repeating Y action overnight, it's a combination of the two that sets the bar. Obviously you can vary one factor with the other - longer time if you're not quite so awesome, and so on - and I'm sure you'll get some variance since not every character can be built to optimize every possible action.

So it's not 50 runs that you simplified my argument to. It's 50 runs *at maximum speed of hitting 7 targets every time the strongest AOE heal in the game is up for full credit*. Clearly, most teams would not be that efficient, you just can't catch all 7 for full heal credit all the time, so in PRACTICE it would probably be 100 or even more, and I don't want to find a time estimate for a Tank with Aid Other.

On Fabricator, what do I consider an awesome level of action? Well, the most frequent crafter I knew of in "standard play actions" (ie: not crafting just for progress) was doing about 20 crafts per play hour, mostly Empowerment. It felt on-track for an epic level of total achievement eventually. so, putting in the value of Fabricator and his craft rate, he was looking at 500 hours of doing this, which is significant, and felt about right.
It's no longer right because the amount of crafting for standard play (ie, not "farming" type of crafting) is a lot lower now, so the time estimate is up, and to a degree that I think it's broken.


(and as an aside, can you please stop quoting just the few words of my post that suit your position and actually try to reply to the entirety of my meaning? thank you.)

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Just as a teaser of the data to come at the weekend.

Counting from Saturday midnight, I just broke 200 Common IOs sold this week, and there is a lot of the week left.

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Midnight Sat 9th Start
Noon Sun 10th 15
4pm Sun 10th 11
7pm Sun 10th 14
11pm Sun 10th 14
6.30am Mon 11th 15
5pm Mon 11th 14
9.30pm Mon 11th 11
6.30am Tues 12th 14
5.30pm Tues 12th 11
11pm Tues 12th 17
6.30am Wed 13th 14
5.30pm Wed 13th 33*
7pm Wed 13th 17
10pm Wed 13th 15
6.30am Thu 14th 13
5.30pm Thu 14th 19
9.30pm Thu 14th 14
6.30am Fri 15th 14
5pm Fri 15th 13
7pm Fri 15th 13
8pm Fri 15th 12
9.40pm Fri 15th 15
12:30am Sat 16th 16
1.20am Sat 16th 15
10.30am Sat 16th 15
1pm Sat 16th 16
2.30pm Sat 16th 15
5pm Sat 16th 19
6pm Sat 16th 19
11.50pm Sat 16th 20
</pre><hr />

463 total craftings in 30 logins, One of which (the *) was about 15 mins as the IO I was selling was going through my inventory as i was placing. Most of the otehrs

At the start of the week I was pretty much crafting whatever had dropped in my salvage, and buying a few random rolls with tickets to round out that inventory. At the end of the week I was working one specific niche which made the inventory much easier to manage.

Had I not been out of the house Saturday evening, I am sure I would have broken 500.

463/week puts moving to fabricator from having field crafter at 19.5 weeks.

Then you can add base empowerment and the like ontop of this.

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

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Since Snow Globe wanted to keep this out of the "Badge Issues" thread, I'm bringing my post from that thread over here, where it belongs.

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When I started working on Fabricator (after I had already acquired the Field Crafter accolade, meaning I already had 1k crafts), it only took me 3 months to get Fabricator on two toons.

Granted, the majority of my time working on Fabricator was before issue 14 came out and common IO salvage became scarce. But this is what I did.

I started out with a goal of 100 crafts per day. Having 9,000 crafts left to go, that meant it'd take me 90 days at the most. I split my crafts into two sections:

Crafting IO enhancements. I had 21 market slots available, so I would craft 20 Recharge Reduction IOs.

On my hero, I crafted 10 Lv45s and 10 Lv50s. On my villain, due to the slower market, I crafted 5 Lv45s and 15 Lv50s. I then put the Lv45 IOs up for sale at 190,001 (usually getting 200,000 back) and the Lv50 IOs up for sale at 290,001 (usually getting 300,000). This is how the numbers break down.

Lv45 Recharge Reduction (memorized): 82,400 inf
1 Temporal Analyzer: 500 inf
1 Hydraulic Piston: 500 inf
10% Market Fee: 20,000 inf
Total: 103,400

Profit: 96,600 inf per IO.

Lv50 Recharge Reduction (memorized): 216,000 inf
1 Temporal Analyzer: 500 inf
1 Hydraulic Piston: 500 inf
10% Market Fee: 30,000 inf
Total: 247,000 inf

Profit: 53,000 inf per IO.

(Note: Before Issue 14, I rarely spent over 250 inf per the individual salvage components.)

Selling a set of 20 IOs everyday, (and I'd frequently sell more than that, especially on the weekends), my hero was clearing 1.5 million inf everyday and my villain was clearing 1.25 million everyday.

Granted, the common salvage prices are considerably higher in the post-i14 era, so the profit will be a little bit lower. But even if you spend 5k per salvage, you're still turning in a profit of 90k per Lv45 IO and 45k per Lv50 IO -- enough for 1.35 million inf per day with a batch of 10 Lv45s and 10 Lv50s.

Still, 20 crafts a day is very slow progress. In addition to those 20 crafts, I also purchased 80 very cheap Lv41-50 tech salvage (usually silver or mathematic proof, but occasionally temporal analyzer, hydraulic piston, kinetic weapon, and/or ceramic armor plate). Before Issue 14 came out, I was able to very easily get 80 salvage pieces for under 100 inf each. I'd then take them to my base and convert them all into base empowerment powers, delete them, and start the process again. That's 8,000 inf per day. A drop in the bucket of the profit I was generating everyday with my IO sales.

Doing 20 IO recipe crafts and 80 base empowerment crafts everyday, I was making 100 crafts a day. I did that everyday on both my hero badger and my villain badger, and I had Fabricator 3 months later.

Now, that strategy might not be as effective today, since common salvage prices have skyrocketed. I had 9,000 crafts when issue 14 hit. After the common salvage supply dried up, I could no longer buy salvage for under 100 inf. So I changed my tactics. For my last 1,000 crafts, I simply used all 21 market slots and placed lowball bids on the common salvages. I bid 250 inf each on 210 pieces of silver, and waited for people to put them up for sale. Once my purchases filled up, I took the salvage and crafted them into base empowerment powers. Those purchase slots filled up everyday easily. It took me only 3 days to get the last 1,000 crafts I needed for Fabricator.

Tedious? Yes. But it's easy and doable. And the 1 invention salvage --&gt; 1 temporary power (aka 12 salvage --&gt; 12 crafts) conversion rate was much better than the old 12 invention salvage --&gt; 2 base components --&gt; 1 temporary power (aka 12 salvage --&gt; 3 crafts) rate.

Anybody who whines that Fabricator is harder to get now just isn't doing it right. Before issue 13, only the people who had access to large supergroup bases (and thus a ton of base salvage) could easily get Fabricator. Now, *anybody* -- even those with solo SGs -- can easily get Fabricator.
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Nicely thought out well done

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It's better to save the Mystery, than surrender to the secret...

Sorry, not good enough. While anecdotally possible, I dispute your findings due to your process. Show me a controlled, repeatable test and you might convince me.

You logged in multiple times a day over 11 hour periods (nearly a 24 hour period on Saturday).

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So logging in multiple times to progress on a badge = bad.

But afk farming = OK.


Double standards much ?

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

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So logging in multiple times to progress on a badge = bad.

But afk farming = OK.

Double standards much ?

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I don't afk farm. So I don't know where that accusation comes from.

Edit:
Additionally I always approach badge calculations based on a 2 hour per day window, preferably the same time of day, to try to get consistent results.

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463 total craftings in 30 logins ...

463/week puts moving to fabricator from having field crafter at 19.5 weeks.

Then you can add base empowerment and the like ontop of this.

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but the important question, Cat, is this:
Do you consider your tracked behavior to be *farming* Fabricator?

This will sound like the Empath debate...
Sure, Empath is obtainable in some time of Arena farming, but still irrationally high for anything approaching "standard" but focused play. (the fact Empath is AFK vs @K "grinding" doesn't matter to the point of what type of farming. If one prefers, substitute Virtual Slayer for Empath. I just keep returning to Empath since it has solid numbers.)
Is Fabricator still irrationally high for people who are playing a "typical" game, but maybe with a bit of extra effort applied to crafting?


Perhaps it would be enlightening, if you don't mind sharing, to know how much play time you put in during the course of the week, on all characters. To see how that login time for crafting compared as a percent of your gaming time.

Where I'm going with that question is this: what if they were "normal" logins? My average play session is 75 minutes - sometimes longer for big TFs, sometimes briefer, so I'll say average. That would be a time to Fabricator of well over 700 hours of character lifetime at a rate of craftings-per-login that you gave. and yet I would think it's a serious crafting effort. I don't think that someone crafting at such a high rate should have that long a time to earn the badge.

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Cat, I think those numbers are absolutely fascinating. Offhand, I suspect Mad and Snow do, too.

The object now is to put them into some sort of perspective.

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Prophecy & Dreams | Prophecy & Dreams Discussion

Nerd Flirting | More Nerd Flirting | Nerds Talking About Flirting

Unbidden | Star Patrol | Real World Hero

To craft and sell, you are limited by the maximum number of slots (21) and rate of turnover.

During peak times, its not unreasonable to sell out those 21 slots in a hour, which is why I hop over alt for a while whilst the selling actually occurs. Selling 9000 IOs from Master Craftsmen means each of the those market slots has to be cycled on average 450 times.

If I were to actually remain on the character, and run to the market at the end of a mission once say 10 sales had occurred, I can tell you I would be making even more sales than I did. Last double XP weekend for example I made crafted and sold about 500 IOs Fridays evening through to Sunday. (I dont have the exact figure, sorry).
If you actively monitor your inventory you cycle through it faster than if you do so passively.

Logging on Monday through Thursday as I did, which was just before I left for work, when I got home, and then before I go to bed, is not farming or actually aberrant behaviour, but is simply making sure that the slots are filled with salable items, as to make craft and sell, the sell is the slow part.

Friday went so late due to the FF5 event running late and those last batches was posted before and after the Shipraid.

If you want to burn through crafts just for the sake of it, then craft and delete is easy.
Clockwork winder 1000-5000inf
Computer virus 10-1000 inf
Level 10 recharge IO 1600 from memory

Lets round up and call it 8000 inf.
I was making no less than 50 000 inf per slot when selling, so heck I could have bought crafted and deleted 6 or more level 10 IOs for each sale and still come out ahead.

It would be pushing it for a week due to the risk of depleting salvage, but its actually not going to be hard (tedious for sure, but not hard) to get fabricator in 2-3 weeks by investing the 'profit' from sales into crafting and deleting level 10s, or empowerments or some combination.

&lt;edit&gt;
This last is what i would consider 'farming' for Fabricator

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

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To craft and sell, you are limited by the maximum number of slots (21) and rate of turnover.

During peak times, its not unreasonable to sell out those 21 slots in a hour,

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I think that 21 is kind of unreasonable for an hour. It's at least rather *ideal* - what if no one was interested in what you had in that slot that hour?
Plus I think the average would be a little lower depending on what you were doing in the mean time. Maybe it's 1:15 to the next refill if you're in a long mission, or you can't spare 5 minutes to hold up a TF team.

The thing is, cutting your 21 down to 15 or even 10 takes the timeframe up to 750 or 1000 hours of gameplay.
You see my issue right there? I don't mind a 500 hour estimate, but I question if your 21/hour is "typical play".


never mind, back on the Empowerment issue, if I was doing my standard empowerment before the change, I was still outdoing your sales per hour, and now that's been cut to a fifth of its prior progress.

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also, if we're talking about craftings being sold, what does it say that the top selling badge was put in at only 7k? Does that not indicate the devs expected 3k worth of "non-sellable" craftings per fabricator crafter? Would that be 3k of SG donations? More likely it was 3k of Empowerment.
But wait, that's very ideal, one has to figure the sales badges account for selling all the non-crafted stuff you could have, such as raw salvage.
This is back on the question of what the devs expected from Fabricator-worthy characters, so maybe we need more insight.

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Do you want me to demonstrate that 2-3 week timeline ?

I offer up Sinmara who is currently 23, and has the 1st # of crafts badge only.

At 23 she doesn't have much of an inf pot and there would be no twinking on my part.

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

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Do you want me to demonstrate that 2-3 week timeline ?

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We both seem to agree that would be farming. I don't think there's a need to work out what's been shown in theory.

but just because it could be done in 3 weeks, or in 19, doesn't mean those are the benchmarks by which an epic badge should be measured.

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In order to preserve the Badge Issues thread from tangents, please post feedback about the following point in this thread:

* Fabricator is too high. Base salvage gave opportunities for 5 or more craftings for one Empowerment buff, now that same buff produces only 1. Base salvage also gave an opportunity to craft components to sell, which were much cheaper than crafting IOs. Reach 10,000 is now a very unrealistic number.

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I think I have to ask what is gained from making the players craft 10,000 times that couldn't be shown by crafting 1,500-2,500 crafts?

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You can ask the same of literally every single badge.

Why 50 Hellion bosses not 25 ?
Why 333 Cabal and not 250 ?

Every single badge has a number the majority of which are purely arbitrary.

Those that aren't are the series badegs where each member of that series has at least some limits set by the others in that series.


What is to be gained by dropping from 10 000 to 2500 ?

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

I have to agree. At some point, a dev started picking numbers, presumably after deciding "Should this be easy, stupidly hard, or somewhere in between?" They're all 'made-up' numbers.

I do think Fabricator should be reduced, though. Just like Zookeeper was reduced after aggro and damage limits were introduced. Changes to the mechanics of the game affect the ease/difficulty of obtaining various badges.

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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project

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"Fabricator is too high." From a perspective of "can this be attained through regular gameplay?" then yes, it's too high. There's no way anybody will make 10,000 crafts on a toon through regular gameplay. At Lv50, a player has 99 slots. Assuming he crafts all of his own enhancements, and does it on both builds, and he's constantly upgrading all of his enhancements every 5 levels, then there's a final set of replacements as he goes from common IOs to sets, he's going to craft, at the very most, 500 enhancements. So from that perspective, yes, Fabricator is set WAY too high.

However, if you're arguing from the "it was easier to get Fabricator when we had base salvage" then I respectfully disagree.

If you're arguing from the "it takes 4 crafts to get one base empowerment craft" perspective, then sure, I guess it was "easier."

But that's only part of the story. When we had base salvage, the procedure to get a single base empowerment power was overly complicated.

Either you had to get the right amount of base salvage, which was very difficult to do as each enemy group only dropped a specific type of base salvage. How many base salvage were there in the game? Over 200? And you had to be in the right level range to get those drops.

Alternatively, you could take 6 of any common invention salvage, 4 of uncommon, or 3 of rare and craft them into a base component. Right, like ANYBODY is going to craft 6 luck charms (or alchemical silver) into 1 arcane base component.

Then you'd craft those base components into temporary base empowerment powers. If I remember right, it took 3 base components for 1 power.

Using base salvage, you needed 3 salvage to get 1 component, then 3 components to get 1 temporary power. That's 4 total crafts from 9 base salvages.

Using invention salvage, you needed 6 salvage to get 1 component. That's 4 crafts from 18 invention salvage.

Under the current system, those same 18 invention salvage will give you 18 crafts. And you don't have to go through the process of converting invention salvage into base components. You simply convert the invention salvage directly into a temporary power.

From your perspective, you're thinking, "To get a temporary power, I made 4 crafts. Right now, to get a temporary power, I only make 1 craft. 4 crafts &gt; 1 craft. The old way was better."

But from my perspective, I'm thinking "18 pieces of salvage used to only generate 4 crafts for me. Right now it generates 18 crafts. 18 crafts &gt; 4 crafts. The new way is better."

Also, under the old system, the only people who had a realistic chance at getting Fabricator were those who ran large supergroups with tons of members and had access to a huge amount of base salvage. Or somebody who could figure out the base salvage system.

Right now, *anybody* has a realistic chance at getting Fabricator. All that person needs is a base with a base empowerment station and the knowledge and patience to purchase silver or mathematic proof for 100 inf each.

Sorry, but I disagree that the old way was easier. IMO, the new way is easier. Before issue 13, I had pretty much written off Fabricator as one of those badges I'd never get. Once issue 13 arrived and the process became more streamlined, I was able to work on Fabricator and got the badge on two toons.

Edited to add:

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Reach 10,000 is now a very unrealistic number.

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If it's so unrealistic, then how was I able to get Fabricator on *TWO* separate toons since base salvage was eliminated?

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No life?

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You can ask the same of literally every single badge.

Why 50 Hellion bosses not 25 ?
Why 333 Cabal and not 250 ?

Every single badge has a number the majority of which are purely arbitrary.

Those that aren't are the series badges where each member of that series has at least some limits set by the others in that series.


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Okay setting aside all the "one-off" badges, let us look at the badges with series.

<ul type="square">[*]Ski runs - 10 seconds apart[*]Bobsled runs - 10 seconds apart[*]"Badge Earned" badges - 25 - 50 - 100 - 200[*]Level badges - 10 levels apart[*]Mentoring - 4 hours - 8 hours - 12 hours - 16 hours - 20 hours - 24 hours[*]Veteran Rewards - 3 months apart.[*]RV Pillboxes - 10 - 100 - 1,000 (I dislike the 10x factor here, but the series is consistent.)[*]RV Heavies - 10 - 50 - 250[*]IO Crafting badges - seem to be weighted by group[*]Ouroboros time badges - 120 minutes - 60 minutes - 30 minutes[*]Ouroboros mender badges - 5 apart.[/list]I would consider these as broken series:
<ul type="square">[*]Damage taken - 100 k - 500 k - 1 million - 10 million - 100 million - 500 million - 1 billion[*]Healing badges - 250 k - 1 million - 2 million - 10 million - 50 million - 100 million[*]Mezzed - 0.5 hour - 2 hours - 10 hours - 20 hours - 40 hours - 80 hours[*]Inf - 1 million - 10 million - 10 million - 100 million - 1 billion - 2 billion[*]Debt - 100 k - 400 k - 800 k - 1.2 million - 2 million - 10 million[*]PVP Rep - 100 kills - 400 kills[*]General Crafting badges - 50 - 100 - 500 - 1,000 - 10,000 (A reduction to 5,000 would bring it in line with the series.)[*]Sales badges - 10 - 50 - 100 - 250 - 500 - 1,000 - 2,000 - 3,000 - 4,000 - 5,000 - 6,000 - 7,000[*]Costume collection during Halloween - 10 - 25 - 50[*]A lot of the AE series badges - 10 - 25 - 50 - 75 - 100[*]Complete X player-created or dev choice story arcs - 1 - 10 - 25 - 50 - 100[/list]For what it is worth, I think they should actually increase some of these numbers while lowering others:
<ul type="square">[*]Mezzed - 2.5 hours - 5 hours - 10 hours - 20 hours - 40 hours - 80 hours[*]Debt - 250 k - 500 k - 1 million - 2 million - 4 million - 8 million[*]PVP Rep - 100 kills- 200 kills (new badge)- 400 kills[*]General Crafting badges
100 - 250 - 500 - 750* - 1,000 OR
125 - 250 - 500 - 1,000 - 2,000 OR
50 - 100 - 500 - 1,000 - 5,000[*]Sales badges - 500 - 1000 - 1500 - 2000 - 2500 - 3000 - 3500 - 4000 - 4500 - 5000 - 5500 - 6000[*]Costume collection during Halloween - 10 - 20 - 40 OR 15 - 30 - 60[*]General AE series - 25 - 50 - 75 - 100 - 125[*]Complete X player-created or dev choice story arcs - 1 - 5 - 10 - 50 - 250[/list]*(note this is still more than all the IO crafting badges)

I could finish citing every badge series in the game, but I have homework due in the next few days.

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What is to be gained by dropping from 10 000 to 2500?

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Not pushing customers over the edge of "this isn't worth it", reducing needless grinding (which brings apathy to paying customers), and to bring the badge rewards in line with the "we don't like farming" policy the developers have with other rewards.

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So you have 11 consistent and 11 'broken'.

Im thinking the definition of broken is off.

Debt for example, this scales as you level. As a lowbie it takes quite a lot of dying to get that 1st one, and asssumign your are meant to earn them consistently as you level, there should be a non-linear interval.

Damage, inf and heal have similar logic, the amount of progress per hit/heal/mob defeat is non-linear as you level.

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

There are a lot more than 11 series that I consider broken, as I did lump almost all the AE badges there. I also did not take the time to go through all the IO crafting badges.

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Debt for example, this scales as you level. As a lowbie it takes quite a lot of dying to get that 1st one, and assuming your are meant to earn them consistently as you level, there should be a non-linear interval.

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The problem is that the Debt, Inf, Damage Taken, and Healing badges are not earned consistently as you progress. Therefore even by this definition they are broken.

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I would consider these as broken series:
<ul type="square">[*]Costume collection during Halloween - 10 - 25 - 50[/list]
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Okay, you're being way too nitpicky if you think this is broken. In my opinion, a badge series where the increments only fluctuate between 2 and 2.5 is almost perfect.

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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project