How to encourage less repetitive behavior
By
Aura_Familia,
Posted on: 2009-05-07 01:02 in Suggestions and Ideas
In some cases, eg, diminishing rewards on MArc repetition, I'm not sure why they don't work that way.
What I am sure about is that the developers are aware of that tool (and the others you mention) to prevent farming. So unless they clarify why they didn't do it that way already, I doubt the suggestion will have much penetration.
Rather than (or maybe as well as) diminishing returns, what might eb a nice idea is just to give a bigger reward the first time your character does something. Give double (or triple) the number of merits for the first time you do a TF or Story arc. That ups the amount of merits available to a character who just goes through doing everything once, is reasonably hard to farm (maybe the low level stuff doesn't get this bonus?) and should make doing something different more attractive to repeating something.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
I like it.
Maybe a mission bonus for the FIRST time you complete a MArc.
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Rather than (or maybe as well as) diminishing returns, what might eb a nice idea is just to give a bigger reward the first time your character does something. Give double (or triple) the number of merits for the first time you do a TF or Story arc. That ups the amount of merits available to a character who just goes through doing everything once, is reasonably hard to farm (maybe the low level stuff doesn't get this bonus?) and should make doing something different more attractive to repeating something.
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I like that, bonus > nerf any day.
You could extend it to mob types, too. First fifty hellions give double xp, etc. Makes a lot of the tougher level borders more interesting (e.g. lvl 30.) But only apply these outside of MA.
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I like that, bonus > nerf any day.
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Not really.
Have you seen how the bonus of half debt in missions fairly quickly became a "nerf" of double debt outside (even though the amount outside didn't chnage).
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
I think the idea of Diminished returns is probably a more effective deterrant than a bonus on the first run.
If a group of people found a mish that was -very- easy for them they could keep farming it repeatedly and endlessly. Sure they wouldn't get the initial bonus on the following runs, but they do get full rewards.
Diminishing returns would make farming the same MA arc backwards thinking. Though I'd DEFINITELY have a different 24 hour timer on EACH character. =-3
-Rachel-
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I think the idea of Diminished returns is probably a more effective deterrant than a bonus on the first run.
If a group of people found a mish that was -very- easy for them they could keep farming it repeatedly and endlessly. Sure they wouldn't get the initial bonus on the following runs, but they do get full rewards.
Diminishing returns would make farming the same MA arc backwards thinking. Though I'd DEFINITELY have a different 24 hour timer on EACH character. =-3
-Rachel-
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Dungeons & Dragons Online did this actually. The more you ran a particular quest the less XP and rewards you received from it. It worked out well.
~ Infinity Heroes ~
Dark Voltage - 50 NRG/NRG/EM Blaster
Shure Shot - 50 Arch/NRG/MM Blaster
Silent Shadow Blade - 50 Katana/SR/BM Scrapper
Uphir - 50 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster
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Rather than (or maybe as well as) diminishing returns, what might eb a nice idea is just to give a bigger reward the first time your character does something. Give double (or triple) the number of merits for the first time you do a TF or Story arc. That ups the amount of merits available to a character who just goes through doing everything once, is reasonably hard to farm (maybe the low level stuff doesn't get this bonus?) and should make doing something different more attractive to repeating something.
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I like that, bonus > nerf any day.
You could extend it to mob types, too. First fifty hellions give double xp, etc. Makes a lot of the tougher level borders more interesting (e.g. lvl 30.) But only apply these outside of MA.
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I actually like this idea. Better than all the MA-killing suggestions I've seen today.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I think the idea of Diminished returns is probably a more effective deterrant than a bonus on the first run.
If a group of people found a mish that was -very- easy for them they could keep farming it repeatedly and endlessly. Sure they wouldn't get the initial bonus on the following runs, but they do get full rewards.
Diminishing returns would make farming the same MA arc backwards thinking. Though I'd DEFINITELY have a different 24 hour timer on EACH character. =-3
-Rachel-
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Dungeons & Dragons Online did this actually. The more you ran a particular quest the less XP and rewards you received from it. It worked out well.
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Actually wouldn't mind diminishing returns as well.
This should of course come hand in hand with the tagging system, so folks know what dreck to avoid.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
With that said the best ideas are what I think Posi already posted.
If you exploit you get the hammer.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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With that said the best ideas are what I think Posi already posted.
If you exploit you get the hammer.
[/ QUOTE ] This.
The OP assumes that nobody likes repeating content. The OP is wrong.
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With that said the best ideas are what I think Posi already posted.
If you exploit you get the hammer.
[/ QUOTE ] This.
The OP assumes that nobody likes repeating content. The OP is wrong.
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Well, the OP assumed that nobody enjoys doing the exact same thing over and over for zero reward. Tons of people like doing stuff they will get rewarded for, and doing stuff more then just once can be fun because you can do it different ways or pay more careful attention to details.
In other words, you made assumptions about the OP, and those assumptions were wrong.
Infinity:
Ellen, 50 MA/Inv Scr
February Night, 14 Ice/Ice Blstr
Guardian:
SilverSwordmaid, 29 Kat/Rgn Scr
Vicious Killer, 33 Emp/Enrgy Def
Electromagness, 40 Rad/Rad Def
Sense of Humor, 50 Fire/En Tank
Virtue:
Kickfest, 50 MA/SR Scr
Freedom:
Glorious Ending, 29 EM/DA Bru
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With that said the best ideas are what I think Posi already posted.
If you exploit you get the hammer.
[/ QUOTE ] This.
The OP assumes that nobody likes repeating content. The OP is wrong.
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this also.
~ Infinity Heroes ~
Dark Voltage - 50 NRG/NRG/EM Blaster
Shure Shot - 50 Arch/NRG/MM Blaster
Silent Shadow Blade - 50 Katana/SR/BM Scrapper
Uphir - 50 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster
[ QUOTE ]
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With that said the best ideas are what I think Posi already posted.
If you exploit you get the hammer.
[/ QUOTE ] This.
The OP assumes that nobody likes repeating content. The OP is wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, the OP assumed that nobody enjoys doing the exact same thing over and over for zero reward. Tons of people like doing stuff they will get rewarded for, and doing stuff more then just once can be fun because you can do it different ways or pay more careful attention to details.
In other words, you made assumptions about the OP, and those assumptions were wrong.
[/ QUOTE ] I didn't make any assumptions. The OP said this:
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The first is that, at base, people don't enjoy doing the same repetitive thing over and over and over. They'll do it, if the reward is really great (think factory workers and getting paid at a job), but they won't actually like doing it.
[/ QUOTE ] There were no qualifiers in that statement. It was a flat statement saying people don't enjoy it. Which is an assumption. And a wrong assumption about many people.
So I didn't assume anything. I went by what he typed. Nice attempt at making stuff up though.
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With that said the best ideas are what I think Posi already posted.
If you exploit you get the hammer.
[/ QUOTE ] This.
The OP assumes that nobody likes repeating content. The OP is wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, the OP assumed that nobody enjoys doing the exact same thing over and over for zero reward. Tons of people like doing stuff they will get rewarded for, and doing stuff more then just once can be fun because you can do it different ways or pay more careful attention to details.
In other words, you made assumptions about the OP, and those assumptions were wrong.
[/ QUOTE ] I didn't make any assumptions. The OP said this:
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The first is that, at base, people don't enjoy doing the same repetitive thing over and over and over. They'll do it, if the reward is really great (think factory workers and getting paid at a job), but they won't actually like doing it.
[/ QUOTE ] There were no qualifiers in that statement. It was a flat statement saying people don't enjoy it. Which is an assumption. And a wrong assumption about many people.
So I didn't assume anything. I went by what he typed. Nice attempt at making stuff up though.
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Seeing as I am the OP, I believe I know my own mind a little better then you do.
What you quote from the original post is not exactly the same thing as just assuming nobody likes to repeat content, which is the assumption you said I was making.
Nice insults though. Well, actually, not so nice. Kind of unoriginal and bland. Try again?
Infinity:
Ellen, 50 MA/Inv Scr
February Night, 14 Ice/Ice Blstr
Guardian:
SilverSwordmaid, 29 Kat/Rgn Scr
Vicious Killer, 33 Emp/Enrgy Def
Electromagness, 40 Rad/Rad Def
Sense of Humor, 50 Fire/En Tank
Virtue:
Kickfest, 50 MA/SR Scr
Freedom:
Glorious Ending, 29 EM/DA Bru
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The first is that, at base, people don't enjoy doing the same repetitive thing over and over and over. They'll do it, if the reward is really great (think factory workers and getting paid at a job), but they won't actually like doing it.
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That is what you said. Of course you know your mind better than I do, perhaps you should communicate what you're trying to say better. You said people don't enjoy repeating it over and over. I didn't make that up. It's there. You are stating something as fact that you just flat out don't know(ya know, making stuff up).
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Nice insults though. Well, actually, not so nice. Kind of unoriginal and bland. Try again?
[/ QUOTE ] I didn't throw any insults. I accused you of making stuff up, which you in fact did do by saying "nice insults"
edit: What kind of person talks in the third person? Really?
Nihilii likes talking in third person. Not that it is of much importance; according to some antifarmers, Nihilii could be a blind rikti monkey. Please carry on !
QR
/unsigned. Why not just let people play the way they want? But on second thought, let's do this. It will solidify my decision to stay out of AE.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I like that, bonus > nerf any day.
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Not really.
Have you seen how the bonus of half debt in missions fairly quickly became a "nerf" of double debt outside (even though the amount outside didn't chnage).
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Nope, I didn't.
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I like that, bonus > nerf any day.
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Not really.
Have you seen how the bonus of half debt in missions fairly quickly became a "nerf" of double debt outside (even though the amount outside didn't chnage).
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Nope, I didn't.
[/ QUOTE ] I did.
I suggested diminishing returns for repeating all game missions such as with Task/Strike forces in an anti-farm thread I posted mooonths ago.
The respondants threw me a towel party.
With all the issues around farming/powerleveling going on now it occurred to me to seriously consider why people would do these things and, more importantly, why people would abuse exploits that allowed extreme versions of these things. AT base, what is occurring is that some very clever players are finding a very efficient way to get extremely good rewards, either in terms of inf, xp, tickets, merits, prestige, recipes, or anything else they make a regularly gainable reward in the game. Then these players take that activity (which, if it were to happen once every few days, would be no big deal) and figure out a way to do it over and over and over. MA makes this much easier, but you can find stuff like this in repeatable missions or story arcs or TFs too. When the reward is so far out of whack with the rest of the game (say, 100 times as much as through normal play) that there is no possible way that people could gain it naturally, this is considered an exploit. However, for those who just want to gain the rewards in the most efficient manner possible, they really don't see much difference except that they have been very successful.
Naturally, once someone finds one of these ways to very efficiently gain some reward over and over and over, the news tends to get around, and soon a lot of people are using this.
So far so good. Lots of people ar getting rewards at a really fast rate. Nobody is hurt, everyone is happy, no?
Well, there are a few problems with this. The first is that, at base, people don't enjoy doing the same repetitive thing over and over and over. They'll do it, if the reward is really great (think factory workers and getting paid at a job), but they won't actually like doing it. Note: I'm not saying that some forms of powerleveling can't be fun, but most of them, the ones based on doing the same ultra efficient thing over and over and over, aren't. The rewards may be enjoyable, but the actual actions...well, people like variety, not sameness.
So we have a bunch of people who basically sacrifice a little fun now, for the rewards they get, in order to enjoy those rewwards later, but what do they do with those rewards? Well, it depends, but a lot of people use this method to get a character from 1 to 50, and then just start a new character, and do the same thing over again. Part of this is because many people don't find there to be much of an end game in CoX, part of this is because people thik leveling a character IS the game. Whatever the reason, people who do this often become bored, and the more effective this is, the more 50s they can make rapidly, the more rapidly they can slot themselves out with the best recipes, the faster they can get the biggest possible bases, and the sooner they grow bored with the game and leave.
Naturally, the devs don't want people to leave. They don't want folks to get bored, but what do they do? By the very nature of things there is going to be some method of getting a reward in these games that is more effecient then other methods, and if you want the best rewards fastest then using that method makes the most sense. But doing the same thing over and over is boring, adn leads to people leaving faster as they "finish the game" faster.
Well, one thing the devs might consider is making it so rewards ar greater for doing more varied things. This should nto diminish the rewards most people can get, but it should make the process of getting those rewrards more enjoyable. They actually did this for task forces. They saw people doing the same task forces over and over because the rewards for those (per unit time) was so much higher then anything else, and they upped the rewards for most task forces somewhat but made it so that doing the same one over and over resulted in less of a reward each time (well, each time you did it in a 24 hour period). It seems to me that the rewards for most task forces were higher the first time you did it, about the same the second time, and severely diminished for the third and further times within 24 hours,k but if you did a variety of TFs within 24 hours you got better rewards then before. This encouraged more varied play. People DID start doing some TFs they rarely did otherwise.
So what if the devs tried to apply this to other aspects of the game? What if the devs made ticket rewards in a story arc half as much the second time you ran it in 24 hours? How about if they made it so that if you killed more then, say, 50, of the exact same mob (both type and name) within a 20 minute period, that you would suffer diminshing returns on killing more of tat mob, both for xp, inf, prestige, and maybe tickets and other drops? What if they started thigns off by increasing the rewards for those things subject to diminishing returns, and made it so that, if people tried to vary their play somewhat they would never even hit diminishing returns, but if they did the same thing over and over, or kept making misssions/arcs to kill the same mobs type over and over, that they would eventually find that the returns were less then they might get otherwise?
Granted, the clever folks will still come up with the most efficient way of gaining rewards through this system, and do that over and over, but the interval between doing the exact same thing will be longer, and in between they will experience more variety in the game, and hopefully have more fun.
Ultimately, we also need more high end content. More of an end game. I don't have any real ideas on that, but this would, hopefully, address the idea of those who seek the greatest rewards being forced to do the same thing over and over to get that, and growing bored as a result.
Infinity:
Ellen, 50 MA/Inv Scr
February Night, 14 Ice/Ice Blstr
Guardian:
SilverSwordmaid, 29 Kat/Rgn Scr
Vicious Killer, 33 Emp/Enrgy Def
Electromagness, 40 Rad/Rad Def
Sense of Humor, 50 Fire/En Tank
Virtue:
Kickfest, 50 MA/SR Scr
Freedom:
Glorious Ending, 29 EM/DA Bru