You don't see them because they would be pointless and ineffective. Sure you could take pool powers to fill in the gaps, but they are not meant to be melee and ranged. One is ranged/buff/support and the other is melee/buff.
Banes are given the powers of Mace so there is no option of going ranged, period.
Edit: There is the option but your damage suffers greatly. The poster under me provides a good breakdown for you, but I would still avoid using a Bane for ranged because you're defeating the purpose of your build. Crabs can do melee but are better as jack of all trades.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
I always thought of the crab melee attacks to be more like the attacks on a MM. They're cute and can get you through a tough leveling time, but you want to respec out of them eventually because you have better power choices. There are the following melee attacks for crabs:
Slice
This power does lethal damage to a ST and does the same damage as the energy damage channelgun. Lethal, being more resisted, does less damage overall.
Arm Lash
This is another lethal attack that takes about a little longer to recharge than Longfang. It does 1.5% of the damage of Suppression per target but has an arc half the size. Suppression also does energy damage, which is generally less resisted in PvE.
Frenzy
This is a half-lethal, half-energy PBAoE that's very similar to a lot of the dom short-range PBAoEs. It has a recharge and an endurance cost of roughly twice that of Arm Lash (and ~2.5 times that of Long Fang) and does a little less damage per target. But, it's PBAoE, so you're able to hit more mobs if you position yourself in a good way. It has a radius of about 8 ft, about the same as Slice.
TL;DR
All of the melee crab attacks do mainly lethal damage (except for Frenzy, which does half energy) and all of them are outmatched in damage by Long Fang. The last two are cones, but the cones are generally outmatched by that of Suppression. Frenzy is a PBAoE, though, so that might be worth looking into if you're the kind of player to jump into the middle of a frenzy and go all dominator-crazy-go-nuts on people.
I use the Bane build as more of a WM-using stalker with several ranged attacks in order to fill out my attack chain. Here are the ranged attacks for the Bane:
Mace Beam
70 ft range (standard) and a quick recharge. It does half smashing and half energy and, both together, does about 75% of the damage of the half smashing, half toxic bash. This, with the fact (imo) that toxic is less resisted in PvE than energy, makes Bash a better choice.
Mace Beam Blast
I use this power in my bane build. It's a targetted AoE and does half smashing and half energy. Its damage is half that of Mace Beam, so consider it to be a weaker AoE version of Bash. Not very useful against single targets, but it's a nice addition when you build for crowds. Note that it does KB, so use it with caution.
Mace Beam Volley
45 degree cone, about 75% of the cone for Suppression on the crab side. It's 75% energy, 25% smashing and does KB. It has a recharge of double that of Mace Blast, which is about the same as any normal corrupter heavy ST blast. Except that it's cone. Except that the cone is somewhat large. Per target, it hits for about the same as Mace Beam Volley, so about 60% of the damage of the ST Mace Beam.
Poisonous Ray
This can be a beautiful power. It does the same damage (roughly) as Pulverize but does it all in toxic damage. Its recharge is a second slower than Mace Beam Volley, making it a second longer than twice Mace Beam. It's single target and imo it ought to do a little more than 7.5% def debuff since it's a "poisoning" power, but what are you going to do?
TL;DR
There are more ranged attacks available to Banes than there are melee attacks available to Crabs and the ranged attacks on Banes are more viable in an attack chain. On the upside, the single target powers do similar damage to the melee powers from a short distance away. On the downside, the AoE powers have to have two or three targets minimum to make up for the drop in damage potential.
Another minus is playstyle. As a bane, you're sneaking in under stealth to smack some fool upside the head with your big [censored] mace. However, noting that your pivotal powers of Crowd Control and Shatter do KB (which can then be followed up with an AoE if you position it correctly), you can form a solid attack chain that flows well imo.
[ QUOTE ]
That being said what are the main reasons that i dont see melee crab builds and or ranged bane builds? Does it just not suit them? It looks like crabs have a few melee powers and banes have a few ranged ones. Does it just suck that bad?
[/ QUOTE ]
In short, yes, it just sucks that bad.
As a previous poster stated, the Bane branch is designed for melee combat. It's signature is the ability to deliver critical hits from Hidden status. Banes even have the ability to deliver an "Executioner's Strike" if you use Shatter while Hidden. Ranged attacks don't crit from Hide so only taking them would severely hinder your ability to do what Bane's do best; kill things.
Crabs, while equipped with melee attacks, don't benefit from them nearly as much as Banes do. They're ability to deliver large amounts of Energy damage from range dwarfs their melee capability.
That said, I took some of the mace beams on my Bane build and some of the arm attacks on my Crab build. I like being fairly balanced. But I wouldn't consider using them exclusively. There's a very obvious seperation between being unique and being gimped.
If you have to choose between the two, go for a melee crab. You'll have better offence than a ranged bane and better mitigation than a melee bane, so you shouldn't be too gimp.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
[ QUOTE ]
I've always enjoyed playing rare, but effective builds, i just like being unique.
That being said what are the main reasons that i dont see melee crab builds and or ranged bane builds? Does it just not suit them? It looks like crabs have a few melee powers and banes have a few ranged ones. Does it just suck that bad?
Sorry if its a newbie question.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I thought about Melee Crab before. I just don't have the time to "invest" in one yet.
I think it's highly doable to make a decent melee Crab. You've got 2 melee and 1 pbaoe and who says you can't use range at melee range? Crab has the defense and resistance to be in melee.
I would take Channelgun to diversify your damage type a bit. And then take Arm Slash, Frenzy and either Slice or Air Sup.
As for all range Bane, it is even easier. Venom, mace beam attacks, poison ray. You may be "slower" but still effective. You can try to be a controllish Bane with single hold, two resistance debuffs and lots of aoe.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
[ QUOTE ]
I would take Channelgun to diversify your damage type a bit. And then take Arm Slash, Frenzy and either Slice or Air Sup.
[/ QUOTE ]
Although I've not build my Crab to be a "Melee Crab" per se (he's an AoE machine first and foremost), I do mix it up in melee when facing small (1-3) spawns. I've got Channelgun, Arm Lash and Slice and it works pretty well. It'd probably be a bit more effective if I'd taken Longfang instead of Channelgun, but there are occasions I have to kite or hit a runner twice, and I've got Channelgun recharging very quickly for that purpose.
Although going pure range plays to the Crab's strength more, I'm finding that between the fast animation on Slice and the potential for multiple targets with Arm Lash that any difference in efficiency is barely noticeable. I'd not try to build a pure melee crab (as in no ranged attacks at all), but if it suits your playstyle they mix in with the other attacks quite nicely.
Personally, I took them because I'm amused by the visual of a hulking suit of power armour bearing down on the enemy and going into a slashing frenzy (Frenzy itself kinda sucks though) amuses me - the fact it's not noticeably hurt my performance is an added bonus.
Well i figure you could always try supplementing the build with skills from the Soldier line to flesh out any holes there might be.
the ranged mace attacks aside from poisonous ray are terrible. poor damage and scatter about 1/3 of its targets rendering them awkward to use and irritating on teams. if you go ranged bane, stick with the rifle attacks.
if you go with the melee crab, make sure to pick up both the pet summons.
[ QUOTE ]
the ranged mace attacks aside from poisonous ray are terrible. poor damage and scatter about 1/3 of its targets rendering them awkward to use and irritating on teams.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's not entirely true. They're a good way to cut downtime while you wait for other attacks to recharge and there's nothing more frustrating than having to chase a runner down, especially if you aggro something else in the process.
As for the scatter, that's a matter of control. It's just like playing an Energy Blaster or anything else that has knockback. Wild use can and will cause problems but skilled employment just might save your life or a teammate's. Knocking a Freakshow Tank Swiper on its a** is a fine way to keep it from hurting you. Using Mace Beam Volley against charging Tsoo can go a long way toward protecting squishes. Plus, it's freakin' hillarious 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the ranged mace attacks aside from poisonous ray are terrible. poor damage and scatter about 1/3 of its targets rendering them awkward to use and irritating on teams.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's not entirely true. They're a good way to cut downtime while you wait for other attacks to recharge and there's nothing more frustrating than having to chase a runner down, especially if you aggro something else in the process.
As for the scatter, that's a matter of control. It's just like playing an Energy Blaster or anything else that has knockback. Wild use can and will cause problems but skilled employment just might save your life or a teammate's. Knocking a Freakshow Tank Swiper on its a** is a fine way to keep it from hurting you. Using Mace Beam Volley against charging Tsoo can go a long way toward protecting squishes. Plus, it's freakin' hillarious
[/ QUOTE ]
how do 2 second long animations "cut down time"? if you've got time to spare in between attacks slot for recharge, take any other attack, or pick up hasten.
how is a 1/3 chance to kb control? comparing the powers to energy blast, one of the most oft-complained-about sets isn't helping the case imo. Plus, even energy has the option to rely more on single target blasts for more controlled KB. Mace Volley and Blast move 1/3 of the crowd away from the rest, that's not control, that spreading out. The KB isn't necessarily the issue, the aoe nature and the low chance to fire off lead to dividing a group up. Skill and talent can't improve the ratio of foes actually KB'd, it will always get a 1/3 chance to work.
I have a pseudomelee crab. I don't skimp on his ranged attacks, but he has every melee attack crabs can get, and he does pretty well opening up with a volley of shots and then moving in. Never played a ranged bane spider, though.
As an Aside, Slice has a 1s activation compared to Channelgun's 1.33s and Longfang's 2s activation. Arm Lash has a 1.67s activation time, for a rather significant amount of damage. If you plan on Malefactoring then it's nice to fill the attack chain.
As Far as I know, Poisonous Ray is standard issue for Banes, range or no.
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
|
[ QUOTE ]
The Bane branch is designed for melee combat. It's signature is the ability to deliver critical hits from Hidden status. Banes even have the ability to deliver an "Executioner's Strike" if you use Shatter while Hidden. Ranged attacks don't crit from Hide so only taking them would severely hinder your ability to do what Bane's do best; kill things.
[/ QUOTE ]
Strongly agree that skipping Cloaking Device or Shatter is flat out gimping yourself, the same way that a petless Mastermind is gimped. If you're the kind of guy who likes running a petless MM or a Stalker without AS or suchlike, then go for it and good luck to you, but you're not fooling anybody into thinking you're a substantial representative of your AT. This is not the "rare but effective" build you're looking for.
That said, there is more to Banes than Executioner's Strike. While you're never really going to shine as a ranged fighter, the blasts do give you something to do after your big, beautiful alpha, or if for whatever reason getting in close isn't convenient. You certainly shouldn't skip them just because they don't directly fit into your Stalker Jr. lifestyle. You're not a Stalker, after all. A melee-centric Bane is certainly natural, but I could actually see taking just Shatter and Cloak and focusing on range for the rest of it. You might not be quite as efficient, but going in for the ES and then retreating to shoot over your teammates' shoulders could work.
Personally, I like Mace Beam and Mace Beam Blast, and find Mace Beam Volley to be kinda lackluster. I don't think I've tried Poisonous Ray (though this thread is giving me second thoughts!). And my Bane isn't high enough for Crowd Control yet, so I can't comment on how that power might affect range vs. melee strategies.
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I like Mace Beam and Mace Beam Blast, and find Mace Beam Volley to be kinda lackluster. I don't think I've tried Poisonous Ray (though this thread is giving me second thoughts!). And my Bane isn't high enough for Crowd Control yet, so I can't comment on how that power might affect range vs. melee strategies.
[/ QUOTE ]
The only hangups that Poisonous Ray has are the range - 40', and the activation time - 2s. Other than that it's golden.
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
|
Check out the huntsman guides. You can make what you're talking about making, but crabs aren't ever going to be scrappers and banes aren't ever going to be blasters, so what's the point?
You know, I have played a huntsman build. A lot. and I can say with utter certainty that a huntsman build is a crippled beastie. Sure it plays in the ranged ballpark, but it skips a lot of the tricks thgat make a bane such an amazing solo toon.
I understand that on paper it looks like banes have some issues. or at least compared to other archetypes 'on paper', but hyperbole or not, my personal experiences with banes have had them FAR more capable of standing toe-to-toe than most night widows, quite a few scrappers, and most stalkers.
I don't know whether it is because of the debuffs in bane's atttacks, the unremitting knockback adding mad survival value, or simply the ease of slotting IO sets into bane abilities, but for whatever reason, on my side-by-side AE kill all speed trials against multiple types of opponents, the bane has consistently pulled ahead. Ironically, the only type of mob that the bane did NOT pull ahead was the melee-only scrapper hordes.
[ QUOTE ]
Check out the huntsman guides. You can make what you're talking about making, but crabs aren't ever going to be scrappers and banes aren't ever going to be blasters, so what's the point?
[/ QUOTE ]
Arachnos doesn't have scrappers or blasters.
[ QUOTE ]
You know, I have played a huntsman build. A lot. and I can say with utter certainty that a huntsman build is a crippled beastie. Sure it plays in the ranged ballpark, but it skips a lot of the tricks thgat make a bane such an amazing solo toon.
I understand that on paper it looks like banes have some issues. or at least compared to other archetypes 'on paper', but hyperbole or not, my personal experiences with banes have had them FAR more capable of standing toe-to-toe than most night widows, quite a few scrappers, and most stalkers.
I don't know whether it is because of the debuffs in bane's atttacks, the unremitting knockback adding mad survival value, or simply the ease of slotting IO sets into bane abilities, but for whatever reason, on my side-by-side AE kill all speed trials against multiple types of opponents, the bane has consistently pulled ahead. Ironically, the only type of mob that the bane did NOT pull ahead was the melee-only scrapper hordes.
[/ QUOTE ]
There are other roles than soloing and standing in melee, neither of which are Huntsman strengths, in my opinion.
I've always enjoyed playing rare, but effective builds, i just like being unique.
That being said what are the main reasons that i dont see melee crab builds and or ranged bane builds? Does it just not suit them? It looks like crabs have a few melee powers and banes have a few ranged ones. Does it just suck that bad?
Sorry if its a newbie question.