Guide to Issue 13 Base Costs / Requirements
By
9thcircle,
Posted on: 2008-11-05 13:20 in Base Construction
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The crafting is different, sure, but once the conversion process is over, things look to my eye like they will be simpler than before. Basically it looks to be on par with the current invention system implementation.
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And people complaining about 3 recipes for a item must remember how many ways i could use each of my base salvages to make a component.
The new system looks much simpler. (get these salvage and make the recipe), without the components hassle. I will agree that some of the requirements are terrible (Tier 1 items should NOT have rare requirements.) but overall looks good.
"When you gotta do something wrong, you gotta do it right." - Fighter, 8-bit theatre.
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so what I am seeing is that as far as IO salvage requirements go...they went right ahead and did all the stuff we feared and told them not to do and made it extremely retartedly complicated on top of that......great....and people wonder why we were pissed in the first place.
Can someone tell me how the placement costs are being handled if you already have items crafted and sitting on your person ready to place? I'm on a hard deadline at work and wont be able to even get in game till maybe Sat.
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In closed beta testing, placement costs for items crafted but not yet placed were what they were under I12. If you want lower placement costs, you must re-craft.
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Well...d'oh!!
I was about to log on and craft 4 telepads.... That inhales.
Not sure if you saw, but telepads don't cost any less to place in I13.
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Teleport
No change in Beacon or Teleporter Costs.
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So go ahead and craft them now while you've got the salvage. Same thing with stuff like the supercollider.
I had the misfortune to have crafted a Turbine Generator though....
At least it wasn't a Fusion Generator.....
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so what I am seeing is that as far as IO salvage requirements go...they went right ahead and did all the stuff we feared and told them not to do and made it extremely retartedly complicated on top of that......great....and people wonder why we were pissed in the first place.
Can someone tell me how the placement costs are being handled if you already have items crafted and sitting on your person ready to place? I'm on a hard deadline at work and wont be able to even get in game till maybe Sat.
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In closed beta testing, placement costs for items crafted but not yet placed were what they were under I12. If you want lower placement costs, you must re-craft.
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Well...d'oh!!
I was about to log on and craft 4 telepads.... That inhales.
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As far as I understand it, the placement fee for teleporters has not changed. So I'd say craft away on those. Just maybe double check PlasmaStream's list before crafting other stuff. 
Quote:
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YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
That's a very nice summary, but the "Change" column is a tad inconsistent.
For values that are reduced or stay the same, you are using Change = 1- new/old, i.e. by how much relative to the original cost an item is reduced in price (comparing difference to original cost).
For values that increase, you are (usually) using Change = new/old, i.e. how high the new cost is relative to the original cost (comparing new cost to original cost). (in one case you seem to use 1 + old/new)
That means that a value of 99.99% indicates a huge decrease in cost, while a value of 100.01% indicates a tiny increase in cost.
Maybe you should use the same method for both increases and decreases?
For instance, either
Going from 200,000 to 100,000 would be new/old - 1 = -50%, and going from 200,000 to 300,000 would be new/old - 1 = +50%
OR
Going from 200,000 to 100,000 would be new/old = 50%, and going from 200,000 to 300,000 would be new/old = 150%
Maybe also call them "Old Cost" and "New Cost" instead of "Cost" and "New"?
Regarding the changes...
The salvage changes are going to be annoying. Really annoying.
But yow, those are some huge reductions in rent/plot size. I smell base expansions....
Wow, just... wow.
I'm seeing so much red at the moment because of the whole salvage change...
Wow. And this is not a good wow.
Thanks for the guide, Plasma.
--Virtue--
My 50s:
Tigra Swipe (BS/SR/Dark Scrapper)
Galena Storm (Emp/Ele/Ele Defender)
Master Tolarin (Psi/Fire/Force Blaster)
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So magic desks are nerfed too?
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I just logged on my one "over 10" test character to start an SG... and the strangest thing happened with the desk... it would stack on itself. No straight z-axis movement, but I could keep placing it on top of its own bounding box.
Siberian Spring-50 (Cold/Rad, Rad/Ice, Ice/Rad, Sh/Ice) - KGB SS8
Chernozem-50 (Ice/MM, Emp/Ice, MA/Regen) - KGB SS8
Wila-50 (Dark/Arch) - KGB SS8
Also: Krassivy Mechtayu-50 (Ill/Rad) - KGB SS8; Ms. Hypatia-50 (Dark/Regen)
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So magic desks are nerfed too?
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I just logged on my one "over 10" test character to start an SG... and the strangest thing happened with the desk... it would stack on itself. No straight z-axis movement, but I could keep placing it on top of its own bounding box.
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Thats due to the current lack of pathing rules. May be subject to change by end of week.
@PlasmaStream
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So magic desks are nerfed too?
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I just logged on my one "over 10" test character to start an SG... and the strangest thing happened with the desk... it would stack on itself. No straight z-axis movement, but I could keep placing it on top of its own bounding box.
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Thats due to the current lack of pathing rules. May be subject to change by end of week.
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Probably... one of the few things I see that I like is the ability to do this. I've no doubt the ability won't make it to live.
Siberian Spring-50 (Cold/Rad, Rad/Ice, Ice/Rad, Sh/Ice) - KGB SS8
Chernozem-50 (Ice/MM, Emp/Ice, MA/Regen) - KGB SS8
Wila-50 (Dark/Arch) - KGB SS8
Also: Krassivy Mechtayu-50 (Ill/Rad) - KGB SS8; Ms. Hypatia-50 (Dark/Regen)
RENT:
I am in one of the top ranked SGs on my server, and we have a huge base. This will drastically reduce our costs. Not sure what we'll do now with all the tons of prestige we earn, though. Some of my alts are in smaller, less active supergroups. They each have a base with the smallest plot size and the basics they need, all for no rent. Under the new system, they will regularly fall behind on rent if they want to keep their storage. I'm not sure how this is an improvement.
SALVAGE:
I've never been a fan of salvage & crafting anyway. I don't mind at all having to pay for improvements or having to gain access to components by earning SG badges, even if that means my small alt SG won't be able to get all the goodies of a large & active SG. In fact, that's part of the challenge. The trouble & complexity of crafting and having to manage inventories of salvage just seems to detract from the heroic/villainous aspect of playing the game, and the fun of designing a cool base. Why not skip the crafting step all together, and just purchase these items at a higher price direct from the base editor? Any base salvage could be converted directly into prestige or inf at the NPC store rate.
That said, if you're going to use invention salvage to make base components, then why not make basic components out of uncommon (yellow) salvage, which has low demand on the current market, instead of rare (orange) salvage, which often sells for tens of millions? Surely the goal is not to put basic telepads out of reach for the casual SG, is it? The problem is magnified if you ever want to change your base layout, and have to delete the old component and craft a new one for the new room or floorplan. There are no refunds for what you spent on salvage.
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A storage limit of 30 salvage is ridiculous.
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Why? It's considerably more community invention storage than you have now, and the amount of salvage needed to craft a given item is considerably less in the i13 system. If you allowed 2500, or 999, or even 100 invention salvage per rack, it would encourage hoarding to a degree that would seriously threaten the markets, especially red side. I think 30 is generous.
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The system is more complex than the old.
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Maybe this is because I'm new to the old system, but the new system seems much, much simpler to me. The old system dropped an incredible array of different salvage, most of which differed only in name and graphics. There were dozens of different recipes to craft completely identical components. And the components were indistinguishable from one another in purpose and character. It seems to me like a system of needless and totally arbitrary variety.
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Why? It's considerably more community invention storage than you have now, and the amount of salvage needed to craft a given item is considerably less in the i13 system. If you allowed 2500, or 999, or even 100 invention salvage per rack, it would encourage hoarding to a degree that would seriously threaten the markets, especially red side. I think 30 is generous.
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So...hoarding would "threaten" the markets, but making the Invention Salvage do triple duty (Base Building, Build #1, Build #2) doesn't? Especially as there has been zero word on a corresponding increase in Salvage drops to make up the difference.
Why does an object that costs 15,000 Prestige (not being dropped in price iirc), hold less than a single, unbadged, level 50 character?
By this logic, I can hoard the equivalent of 14 Salvage Racks with my VG and about 16 with my SG. Oh, and that's not counting storing stuff in the Vault Reserve or in WW/BM.
The only benefit of the racks is to facilitate transfer between alts on the same account in a solo SG. That's it.
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Maybe this is because I'm new to the old system, but the new system seems much, much simpler to me. The old system dropped an incredible array of different salvage, most of which differed only in name and graphics. There were dozens of different recipes to craft completely identical components. And the components were indistinguishable from one another in purpose and character. It seems to me like a system of needless and totally arbitrary variety.
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There was a nice little addition to the crafting menu, "Hide Recipes Missing Ingredients". Suddenly, that daunting list of recipes drops down to a much more manageable set.
Could they have tighten up the number of ways to get a Mystic Foci? Sure.
But this is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
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So...hoarding would "threaten" the markets, but making the Invention Salvage do triple duty (Base Building, Build #1, Build #2) doesn't?
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That's right. Increasing demand is good for the market, because it increases the price and potentially makes the market a more profitable option than vendoring salvage. It discourages hoarding and keeps trading volume high. Decreasing supply, however (which is the effect of allowing hoarding), is bad, because while it increases prices, it can also result in shortages, which makes people hoard more. We're seeing exactly this problem in the credit markets right now.
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Why does an object that costs 15,000 Prestige (not being dropped in price iirc), hold less than a single, unbadged, level 50 character?
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Because there is an opportunity cost in filling up that 50 with salvage, but none in filling up the rack.
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By this logic, I can hoard the equivalent of 14 Salvage Racks with my VG and about 16 with my SG. Oh, and that's not counting storing stuff in the Vault Reserve or in WW/BM.
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If I bought your argument that spreading salvage across more than 10 characters was as cheap or convenient as packing your base with salvage racks, then I suppose I'd have to agree that 30 is a trivial amount of storage for a single rack. But I don't buy that argument.
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The only benefit of the racks is to facilitate transfer between alts on the same account in a solo SG. That's it.
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I'm having a hard time convincing myself that you really believe this. Surely you can see that there's more benefit in storage racks than just trading with yourself. A full salvage rack doesn't prevent further drops; a full salvage inventory does. Salvage racks can be packed in into even the smallest base; personal salvage inventory can only be increased in small increments. Scattering salvage across multiple characters requires inconvenient multiple logins and good bookkeeping; storing salvage in racks allows immediate inventory assessment (without having to ask everybody in your SG "do you have a Chronal Skip?") and instant access to what's available.
Salvage racks spare you the opportunity cost of storing salvage on your characters and they afford you much greater convenience than keeping things across an array of alts and friends.
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There was a nice little addition to the crafting menu, "Hide Recipes Missing Ingredients". Suddenly, that daunting list of recipes drops down to a much more manageable set.
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My point was that having dozens of ways to get to the same product via hundreds of permutations of artificially diverse salvage and two crafting steps is much more complex than having three parallel recipes and a single crafting step. There is absolutely no point to the enormous variety of base salvage that drops on live, and no point to the large variety of different recipes to make base components. Hell, there's no point to having salvage and components. It's a system designed to be complex but with no compelling reason for the complexity.
I'll actually turn your point around: just because you're used to it and invested in it doesn't make it a good system. From a design perspective there's no good reason to maintain two completely independent salvage systems, so they might as well migrate to the one that is better designed, has fewer redundancies, and is more familiar to the largest number of players.
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That's right. Increasing demand is good for the market, because it increases the price and potentially makes the market a more profitable option than vendoring salvage. It discourages hoarding and keeps trading volume high. Decreasing supply, however (which is the effect of allowing hoarding), is bad, because while it increases prices, it can also result in shortages, which makes people hoard more. We're seeing exactly this problem in the credit markets right now.
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Ah.
You define a "healthy market" as one in which the Marketeers benefit. Forget everyone else.
Because that's who is going to be loving this change. The rich get richer...and everyone else...doesn't.
The market can barely handle the demand now, especially in terms of the Rare salvage - the stuff that for some idiotic reason is getting included in Tier 1 base recipes. It's going to turn stupid when 13 hits.
Edit - Not to mention, this also vastly increases the dilemma a person faces. With Base Salvage, they could easily donate to the SG with no skin off their backs. With Invention Salvage, they have to make the decision to either support the SG or themselves. All for zero apparent gain.
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Because there is an opportunity cost in filling up that 50 with salvage, but none in filling up the rack.
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The stuff for filling up the rack? Comes from the same place that the 50 fills up.
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If I bought your argument that spreading salvage across more than 10 characters was as cheap or convenient as packing your base with salvage racks, then I suppose I'd have to agree that 30 is a trivial amount of storage for a single rack. But I don't buy that argument.
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It is cheap. It is easy. With either a) a trusted friend - or SG mate; or b) a second account.
30 pieces is EXTREMELY trivial, espeically when you factor in that that INCLUDES Event salvage and Candy canes. The number of candy canes I have stored right now for use this winter event for alts would fill up almost 5 of those "new" racks. And that doesn't even touch the Costume salvage that I saved for new alts, friends, and for quick cash at the market.
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I'm having a hard time convincing myself that you really believe this. Surely you can see that there's more benefit in storage racks than just trading with yourself. A full salvage rack doesn't prevent further drops; a full salvage inventory does. Salvage racks can be packed in into even the smallest base; personal salvage inventory can only be increased in small increments. Scattering salvage across multiple characters requires inconvenient multiple logins and good bookkeeping; storing salvage in racks allows immediate inventory assessment (without having to ask everybody in your SG "do you have a Chronal Skip?") and instant access to what's available.
Salvage racks spare you the opportunity cost of storing salvage on your characters and they afford you much greater convenience than keeping things across an array of alts and friends.
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No, there's not really a benefit for the cost.
I can store 200 pieces of salvage in the AH for free. I can store another 50 in the Vault for free. I have room for 80 on my main. This is costing 15,000 prestige for 1/11th the space. It would take 11 Salvage racks to equal the space that this single character has (my 14 and 16 were based on the fact of not having all the badges/slots/and levels with other characters and was wildly underestimated).
Multiple logins and bookkeeping are trivial to pay, as compared to the piddly amount of storage the new system offers.
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My point was that having dozens of ways to get to the same product via hundreds of permutations of artificially diverse salvage and two crafting steps is much more complex than having three parallel recipes and a single crafting step. There is absolutely no point to the enormous variety of base salvage that drops on live, and no point to the large variety of different recipes to make base components. Hell, there's no point to having salvage and components. It's a system designed to be complex but with no compelling reason for the complexity.
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Components have a large variety of recipes because it takes into account what would drop.
There's no point to using personal salvage, which is what Invention is, for group item, which Base Salvage was for.
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I'll actually turn your point around: just because you're used to it and invested in it doesn't make it a good system. From a design perspective there's no good reason to maintain two completely independent salvage systems, so they might as well migrate to the one that is better designed, has fewer redundancies, and is more familiar to the largest number of players.
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Better designed?
Have you seen the recipe requirements? How is using an Arcane Rare (that's already stupidly overpriced on the market) for a Tier 1 object even close to being designed well?
Instead of leaving it as is, they have to design a) a Base Salvage->Invention salvage conversion system with two steps; b) revise ALL recipes to use Invention salvage; c) change the Storage racks; and d) utterly [censored] the market.
Why was this considered "necessary"? Who were the people clamoring for the removal of Base Salvage?
Oh, that's right, it was "confusing". This is so much less confusing.
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Increasing demand is good for the market, because it increases the price and potentially makes the market a more profitable option than vendoring salvage.
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Good for the market, bad for bases.
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Because there is an opportunity cost in filling up that 50 with salvage, but none in filling up the rack.
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Holiday salvage. Halloween for costume slots, Candy Canes for some IOs (including a nice Unique, and costs 130 Candy Canes for a full set), costume pieces, badges, and holiday temp powers... All these opportunities to share with one's SG is LOST with the new racks.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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A storage limit of 30 salvage is ridiculous.
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Why? It's considerably more community invention storage than you have now, and the amount of salvage needed to craft a given item is considerably less in the i13 system. If you allowed 2500, or 999, or even 100 invention salvage per rack, it would encourage hoarding to a degree that would seriously threaten the markets, especially red side. I think 30 is generous.
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Perhaps because (a) even if using invention salvage for empowerment stations wasn't already a silly idea, limiting to 30 storage makes the empowerment stations pretty much useless, and (b) because that number counts for both invention salvage /and/ event salvage. I'll have to buy a couple of storage units to just hold the Halloween salvage for my alts!
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Does anyone know if the payment schedule for the upkeep has remained the same?
(I.e. Can you defer payment up to a month before the base shuts down, or has that changed as well?)
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I gotta ask...which Genius thought this system was less "confusing" than the current Base Salvage?
Were the devs drunk when this was in concept stages? And they just said to hell with it and let it go?
For the first time, Issue 13 is something that is srsly making me reconsider my subscription. Just compounding stupidity on top of stupidity with this Issue.
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My husband asked me to play LOTRO with him. I bought the game and am downloading it now.
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Gutting the Epic/Patron power sets, and now base building requires a PhD, its own instruction manual and hours on the forums just to figure out that it still sucks? These are MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR mistakes.
I've been here since retail, and I play almost every day. My family has 3 accounts. I am NOT a happy subscriber. These look like some of the worst ideas since Emmert tried to to tell us what "fun" is and followed up with ED.
Ideally, the tank will die precisely as everyone else starts fighting, allowing aggro to be spread evenly among the blaster. -seebs, "How to Suck at CoH/CoV" Guide
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and now base building requires a PhD, its own instruction manual and hours on the forums
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I seriously am missing something.
Before: If I wanted to craft something, I would bring up its "recipe" and it would tell me I needed x number of whatevers. Then I would have to search through untold lists of recipes for the component, and try to figure out what magic combination of base salvage would be needed to produce the needed number of components. One wrong click, and I would be short a salvage because thirteen of my "lit" recipes used the same salvage bit. Eventually, I would have the correct components, and I could make my teleporter.
Now, its basically like a IO, right? I look up my teleporter, and it tells me I need x,y, and z invention salvage bits. I collect them, and I make my new toy.
That's it, right?
any idea as to how they do empowerment buffs? what is required?
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
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Empowerment buffs work the same way they used to, except that they now take between 1 and 3 pieces of invention salvage, with each buff having 3 possible "recipes" for tech and a different 3 for arcane. And yes, they're using Luck Charms there, too.
Prophecy & Dreams | Prophecy & Dreams Discussion
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[Because that's who is going to be loving this change. The rich get richer...and everyone else...doesn't.
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ZOMG! the game is copying the stock market crash!!! O.O
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Why? It's considerably more community invention storage than you have now, and the amount of salvage needed to craft a given item is considerably less in the i13 system. If you allowed 2500, or 999, or even 100 invention salvage per rack, it would encourage hoarding to a degree that would seriously threaten the markets, especially red side. I think 30 is generous.
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Social groups are far more important to the longevity of MMOs than anything else. Markets included. Harming Super Groups because of some fear of "possible" harm to the market would be extremely foolish imo.
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Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
Was just on test trying out the new system and I have 1 word for it....BAD!
1. For existing bases converting the base salvage to i/o salvage is royally annoying.
2. You run out of storage for the i/o's that you convert to on your alt, personal storage in the vault and in the salvage bins much too fast. The 30 item limit on the storage bins are ridiculous!
3. The possibility of theft of very valuable i/o salvage is beyond ridiculous since there are no safeguards in place on the storage bins.
4. The recipes themselves are nuts....there is absolutely no reason for a rare i/o salvage to be necessary for a tier 1 base item.
5. The elimination of the base salvage really puts into jeopardy the ability to build base items as SG members will not be willing to give up/donate valuable i/o salvage that can be used for personal enhancements (especially now that you are also introducing dual builds)
6. With only i/o being the only type of salvage in the game now your economy will go completely out of wack...if you think Hami Goos and Essence of the Furies are expensive now, wait until this new system goes live.
7. The powers that be keep on saying that they are doing everything they can to discourage RMT's, but this change will only amplify them. This is a gold mine for the gold farmers.
8. Crafting the base items has become more tedious that it was before. In the prior system, I would just load up on the different types of base salvage (since there was no limit as to the amount of different types of salvage) and sit in front of a crafting table and be able to build what ever I needed with out having to stop and "reload" on salvage as often as you will have to under the new system.
9. The multiple recipes for each base item is very confusing. I had thought that they had wanted to make base building easier and eliminate confusion.
I'm stopping now as typing this is making me angrier and angrier about the changes to the base building system. The changes have essentially taken what for me was one of the most creative fun parts of the game and ruined it. The new system really can not be allowed to go live as it has so many flaws and is, IMO, very poorly designed and executed.
DEVs, there have been many voices raised here in this forum asking you to please communicate with us about these changes. I implore you to please contact some of the "leaders" of the base building community (PlasmaStream, MadScientist, Hellgaurd, Snow_Globe, Robo_Knight just to name a few off the top of my head) and listen to their concerns about the new system. The changes to say the least are very very unpopular.
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