Understanding what is considered blocking would be a help.
As an example look at the Teleport Beacons. You can place them on a wall at around the 5 foot mark and cannot end up placing something directly under them (sometimes) as it is called blocking an item. Yet there is nothing blocking anyone from access to it.
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Beacons are certainly interesting.
They're a great example of a "raidable" item that serves no raiding purpose. You don't need porters in a raid, and I'm not sure what trashing a small beacon is useful for in regards to permanent damage. (Heck, trashing something that drains control may be counter-productive if you also destroyed some control Aux.... not that I think control Aux should be targetable, either.)
They also serve no PVE purpose for being "clickable" - especially since you can move them to a place that's unreachable because of height.
So why are they clickable at all? Is it a subtle way to enforce people into not blocking them *visually*? That seems odd, since there's no rule about how logically they need to line up with the porters.
I would think that a group is on their own to make them unblocked for visibility. If the group makes the porters too difficult to figure out because things are in front of a beacon, that's the group's problem, people can complain to the architects.
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So why are they clickable at all?
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One speculation. Something I do in bases with a large hall of TPers, especially arcane ones, with beacons lining the opposing walls, is to mouse-over/click each on in sequence down the hall to see which beacon it is, in order to more quickly find the destination I want. If they were not clickable, I'm not sure I could get their names quite as easily. This is especially useful for the arcane ones, which are visually very hard to differentiate one from the other.
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So why are they clickable at all?
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One speculation. Something I do in bases with a large hall of TPers, especially arcane ones, with beacons lining the opposing walls, is to mouse-over/click each on in sequence down the hall to see which beacon it is, in order to more quickly find the destination I want. If they were not clickable, I'm not sure I could get their names quite as easily. This is especially useful for the arcane ones, which are visually very hard to differentiate one from the other.
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so is that a reason they have to be clickable? or is that just something else the devs should keep in mind if they made beacons non-pathable?
it'd lean towards the latter. make them non-pathing and address the fac that they all look alike from afar.
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So why are they clickable at all?
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One speculation. Something I do in bases with a large hall of TPers, especially arcane ones, with beacons lining the opposing walls, is to mouse-over/click each on in sequence down the hall to see which beacon it is, in order to more quickly find the destination I want. If they were not clickable, I'm not sure I could get their names quite as easily. This is especially useful for the arcane ones, which are visually very hard to differentiate one from the other.
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The custom "targetfriendnext" command lets me cycle through them with the repeated press of a key. Same method but easier for me.
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The custom "targetfriendnext" command lets me cycle through them with the repeated press of a key. Same method but easier for me.
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They snuck that command on the Options screen a few issues ago, actually. Under Targeting. For those like me who can never remember command names when binding.
What would you feel would be needed to identify each beacon *without* targeting them somehow?
Larger artwork? Color-coded artwork? Floating names hanging above them like you see over NPCs? (actually, I kinda like that last one, if each player can turn it on/off as a client-side graphics option.)
or perhaps the extreme solution that people have mentioned... all attached beacons are available for use at all teleporters in the room. That way you don't have to keep searching, you just need to check one porter in the room to see if it has your destination. Would that remove any need to make beacons targetable and pathable?
I like the idea of a porter accessing all the beacons in a room. Would lessen the amount of porters needed, for sure. Small room, fill it with one porter and as many beacons as you can place, and no more do you have half the plot filled with porters, especially heroside.
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I like the idea of a porter accessing all the beacons in a room. Would lessen the amount of porters needed, for sure. Small room, fill it with one porter and as many beacons as you can place, and no more do you have half the plot filled with porters, especially heroside.
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as I understand the idea I was referencing, it wouldn't change Aux limits.
so you'd still need 2 porters for 4 beacons. but you wouldn't have to figure out which beacon was attached to which particular porter, both porters would show all 4 beacons. hence, less need to tab thru the whole room, just click any porter and read the list - but not a full redesign of the room/aux limits.
but yeah, if more beacons per porter would be what's needed to make beacons non-pathable, then that's worth pondering, too.
IMHO, I'd be inclined to just make them non-targetable, non-pathing right now, and see how people react. It may turn out people just adapt to it. but I'm no Dev.
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What would you feel would be needed to identify each beacon *without* targeting them somehow?
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Forget those pictures on the beacons. A nice big red "Perez Park" on the beacon would be much more useful. As would making them slightly smaller so that we don't have to place the TPers on the highest floor setting just to set the beacons in front of them.
What about icons instead of text or snapshots? Something bold, colorful and obvious. A ship for Indy Port, bull horns for Talos, tiki mask for Astoria, Rikti Drone for RWZ, Aeon logo for Cap, Arachnos logo for Grandville, pyramid for St Martial.
Personally I like the pictures. I wish the Arcane ones were more visible from a distance though.
However I do believe we are getting a bit off topic in terms of our pathing concerns.
here is one I am running into right now with my base. I am building a ship in a 4x3 workshop.
Along one side of the room from door to door I have the long wooden bridges creating a path from point A to point B. Now..I am trying to build something in the space adjacent to the bridges and am told I am blocking between doors. however, there is a clean path.
This is something that really should be looked at. Bridges and the one Arcane arch are good examples of things that can "block pathing "even though they don't block anything.
Edit:
I am at work right now, but an idea just spawned of items that "block pathing" but shouldnt being consolidated into a list in this thread.
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I'd forget what symbol belongs where. I use the names.
I'm at work now, but are all auxiliary items targetable? Do they have to be for some reason to get an AUX item to work with its parent item?
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Edit:
I am at work right now, but an idea just spawned of items that "block pathing" but shouldnt being consolidated into a list in this thread.
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yup, exactly one of the hopes for this thread.
bridges should probably be given whatever code stairs got to not block pathing.
the trouble is, how do you control that when a bridge has railings? Do you end up with an item that doesn't techincally block pathing, but still can block if you put it sideways? maybe it's better to ask that question in terms of the arcane archways.
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I'm at work now, but are all auxiliary items targetable? Do they have to be for some reason to get an AUX item to work with its parent item?
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that's a damn good question. and a good reason it'd be nice to have a Base Dev around when we discuss this stuff.
however, even if the answer is "yeah, it's part of the Aux system", I think that the system then should be overhauled as there's no practical reason to target most Auxes.
Let's examine the targetable objects...
Teleport Main - need pathing to be useful.
Teleport Aux - targeting is a useful compensation for poor graphics, but those graphics should be fixed anyways.
Control Main - not targetable, not concerned with pathing.
Control Aux - most any good raiding base won't risk their entire defense on a destroyable aux making the difference in control. So I see no purpose to justify limiting the room design.
Energy Main - justifiably needs to be targetable in a Raid. Is there a way to reconcile the targeting need for when not raiding? Maybe give the thing some clicky effect to justify the clear path to it? The Startup Generator maybe doesn't have to be pathed to at all, but you could kind of justify that as part of the logic of the startup room being big and clumsy.
Energy Aux - I don't see why these would be a target in a Raid. Smart Raid designers won't have the entire defense network down from one small object, and smart attackers will take out the whole generator first anyways. These can only be a distraction in a raid strategy, nothing really lost if they're indestructable.
Medical Main, AutoDoc, Logs - justifiably needs a path
Robo-Surgeon - like energy, there's perhaps a raid reason the trash the Aux, but would that strategy ever be worth it? Would people just take down the Ring itself? Doesn't seem worth the design constraint. If there's supposed to be a buff to the defense of the rez ring, forcing players to go thru the robo-surgery first, that's not enforced in the way these work.
Workshop - well, RoboFabricators are only related to raid setups, so that's not a concern for fixing general architecture, now is it? And the whole Permanent Destruction thing may end up overhauled before it goes live, so perhaps best to table discussion of these?
What else am I missing? (I'll skip Batteries and Defense.)
Given a door configuration like this:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>XXX
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XXX</pre><hr />
where two or more connections are being made between rooms 3 or more squares across, I can't raise place a second door where stairs are all the way across the current door location and the to-be-new door's location. To place the door, I must first move/delete the stairs, and then put them back when the door is in position.
It's a minor issue, but it does seem to be pathing-related.
Let me clarify the idea I just had about Generators in the middle of that other paragraph...
People ask "I don't raid, why can't I surround my generator with filing cabinets?"
What if that wasn't a rhetorical question saying "why do I suffer pathing from raids I don't have?"
What if, instead, the question was answered with "because you need a clear path to your generator so your SG members can click on it and ____________ "
Fill in the blank with some non-Raid-related benefit.
What I'm saying is this: it may be OK to be stuck with pathing if that pathing is justified by some effect.
The same way you can answer "why do I need a clear path to my Teleporter?" with "so people can use it." The Generator could have some active use to justify the path to it during non-raid times.
I have no idea what. Some temp power buff? (+10 End for 5 minutes? scaled up for larger generators?) or some base-related function like devouring Base Salvage to generate Prestige?
Interesting thought, MadScientist. While +10 End is a HUGE benefit, perhaps something akin to "You benefit from +200% recovery while you bask in the aura of the generator...without being blocked by Line of Sight".
During a raid, this could also set up some more interesting strategic positions besides "where the guns are" "where the IoP is" and "A room to drop a Disruptor Pylon in". (Admittedly, I don't raid. No doubt blowing up the generator and/or control auxes is of some value...but how much work for how much gain?)
Outside of a raid, characters who have just popped out of a rez ring might stand beside the generator to get all their endurance back before returning to their mission.
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Interesting thought, MadScientist. While +10 End is a HUGE benefit, perhaps something akin to "You benefit from +200% recovery while you bask in the aura of the generator...without being blocked by Line of Sight".
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I think it's important to actually have to walk up and click on it. I don't want to leave an "out" where the phrase "but I don't want to raid..." turns to "but what if I want to surround it and turn that off?"
Now, maybe if clicking it gave you 5 End back? Then you walk up and hammer on the thing after getting rezzed?
though I didn't think alittle +MaxEnd is a big deal if you don't have crazy amounts of recovery to refill it.
Is there a better suggestion for an effect (temp power or otherwise) that wouldn't bog down the idea of "justify my needing a path here" with the details of what the particular justification is?
advancing the Non PVP use of the generator so pathing remains.
Combo Unit: +0
Basic Gen: +5 End (benefit to being in a group)
2nd Tier Gen: +10 End
3rd Tier Gen: +15 End
Duration: 1 Hour Real time
Useable: Every 24 Real Time Hours
To avoid abuse with the usabilitty and duration. Though if you wanted to be mean you could make duration 1 Real time hour, usability every 24 Game hours...
Also to the note on bridges: Considering how bridges must currently be mounted to walls (kinda defeats the purpose of a bridge sometimes...) I dont imagine the railings will be an issue.
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See, that's part of why +Maxend is a huge benefit...your recovery scales with your endurance. If my controller packed that buff, he'd be at 123.6 endurance - that's also 23.6% more recovery than a "normal" hero.
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Duration: 1 Hour Real time
Useable: Every 24 Real Time Hours
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Should be possible given the new Phase Shift. A 24-hour non-deletable power that does 1 hour of buff then 23 more hours of nothing. Then the generator simply doesn't renew it until it's gone - which Empowerment stations are capable of.
I like a real time limit on it, a game time suppression will just lead to people idling in the base instead of logging out.
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Also to the note on bridges: Considering how bridges must currently be mounted to walls (kinda defeats the purpose of a bridge sometimes...) I dont imagine the railings will be an issue.
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I must have been thinking of something else I see floated all the time.
oh well, at least it was an excuse to put forth the consideration for arches.
The AES should not block pathing. It's so big it usually ends up right against a doorway. The hitbox is big enough that even if you bring the floor and ceiling togehter a bit there's still enough headroom for the tallest target to walk under it.
The two Arcane Platforms should behave the same as stairs, but currently you can't back them up to a doorway.
I'm not sure about the ceiling-mounted Spike Ring. If it would end up too close to a door, then maybe it needs a bit wider hitbox to form a buffer around it?
This whole pathing thing is... a bit ambiguous. What I would LOVE to see in the editor is a toggle to show the lines that are being used to determine pathing. Maybe color the lines different for raid pathing and normal pathing to really add some clarity. But even with them both the same color, we could get some real use out of seeing the pathing logic. This may even be something that could be done between issues.
focusing discussion about base pathing into one thread.
for example,
- are there base items that adversely affect pathing rules? (eg, floor tiles seem to be path-limiting, where they should probably be more like stairs)
- is there a way to improve pathing in general? what would be the pros and cons of removing it completely?
- just how much of pathing is truely raid-related? what non-raid setups get referred to as "raid pathing" but are still considerations in PVE pathing?