Possible non-merger solutions
By
Agent_Kendt,
Posted on: 2008-04-10 01:15 in The Market and Inventions
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Supply and demand is what dictates prices, that has nothing to do with democracy.
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in broad terms the players decide what is expensive and what isn't by 'voting' with their inf.
Like any comparison between a real world structure and a game structure it doesn't hold up under a microscope, but I think it's viable as an off-the-cuff comparison in a casual discussion.
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I'm an idealist and I think prices on low-level stuff should be lower than high-level stuff, so some more people can actually afford it as they level up.
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You're ignoring the basic structure of the game, where high level characters often revisit the lower levels to run content.
Their inf drives the market for luxury goods.
Anyone at any level can easily afford TOs, DOs and SO's these days. Anyone can afford to frankenslot. The only stuff that is prohibitively expensive is the stuff that delivers a serious performance jolt.
The market is a meritocracy, not a utopia.
Sorry.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Why even have the +Stealth IO exist at every level above 15? If I had been designing this part of the game, I'd have made all the stealth IOs exactly level 15. (Perhaps the recipe would need to be level-dependent, to work with the current drop system. But the crafted IOs should all be the same level...)
[/ QUOTE ]Only one level of each unique IO would be great, they all do the same thing anyways. And yeah, the unique recipes should still have a specific level so you can't slot a miracle +recovery before level 17, and probably some kind of tag as well to make them only drop between 20 and 40.
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Not exactly. As a for instance the unique - steadfast resist/+3% defense does indeed provide more resistance if you use a higher level IO. The +3% defense part though is the same no matter what.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Why even have the +Stealth IO exist at every level above 15? If I had been designing this part of the game, I'd have made all the stealth IOs exactly level 15. (Perhaps the recipe would need to be level-dependent, to work with the current drop system. But the crafted IOs should all be the same level...)
[/ QUOTE ]Only one level of each unique IO would be great, they all do the same thing anyways. And yeah, the unique recipes should still have a specific level so you can't slot a miracle +recovery before level 17, and probably some kind of tag as well to make them only drop between 20 and 40.
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Not exactly. As a for instance the unique - steadfast resist/+3% defense does indeed provide more resistance if you use a higher level IO. The +3% defense part though is the same no matter what.
[/ QUOTE ]Well, most of them do the same at each level they exist at, and it was those that I meant.
Whenever I think of the amount of possible addenda I could add to a post, to try and cover every possible hole, I start getting a severe headache. So I don't even try doing that anymore 
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As for the solutions, It pretty much gives more than one Pool C recipe for completing a TF. I'm not sure it would be a good idea to give more than once recipe for completing a TF.
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I think the whole point is to do just that. Right now all TFs / SFs have the same reward, but the time required varies tremendously. A six hour Shadow Shard TF gives the same reward as a thirty minute Katie run. Adding tokens based on average time to complete would mean that six hour Shadow Shard monster you just finished would give you several recipes... just like the multiple shorter TFs you could have run in the same time period would.
As for soloing TFs, I'm sure it's possible for a few builds on both hero and villain side, but I doubt it's common. After all, most builds can't solo an AV or Hero and the ones that can are still going to take way longer to do so than just running a Katie / whatever the quick villain SF is. Soloing a TF is for bragging rights... it's no where near as fast as a team for getting Pool C drops.
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It's silly to try and balance the rewards for TFs depending on how 'difficult' it is.
Players who are farming TFs for drops won't really care what TF it is - they will work out which TF they can run the fastest and do that one over and over. 'Tokens' might affect their choice of TF but it won't affect their enjoyment.
For everyone else the TF itself is the reward. The drop at the end should is nowhere near as important as the content of the TF.
Yes, but if the reward vs time was balanced better it would be a lot easier for people who aren't farmers to get to run certain TFs. Right now, only people looking for a badge or actually interested in the content ever run most SFs / TFs. Sure the hardcore farmers will crunch the numbers and run whichever is fastest (even if it's only 5 minutes faster per recipe), but a lot of people who aren't hardcore farmers still avoid long TFs. A better reward would encourage more people to do them, and as long as that reward isn't better than running Katies for the same time period it won't hurt balance.
Why does it matter? Simple... there aren't enough people willing to run most TFs. Try getting a group for a TF that takes longer than 2 hours some time (especially on a lower population server)... it's a royal pain. Equalizing rewards would let people who want to do a long TF possibly get some of the people who are just looking for drops to join in.
So in short, it makes it easier for people who aren't in large SGs to run longer TFs by giving the recipe hunters enough reward to join in. You won't get the hardcore "Katie in under 30 minutes" teams but you might get people who would otherwise have been running Katie PUGs for several hours.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
If all TFs were designed to be desireable and fun, it would not address any villainside/heroside deficiency - there's more variety and a better spread, heroside, than there is villainside.
That said, I don't think that the redside TFs need all that much work, really. Most of them are really fun and interesting, and have an equal incentive to do them once. Once you start treating them as booster packs with a prize in them, the Cap Au SF becomes primary, and the Lady Grey one probably becomes second (just because it's only five missions.)
I see your point, but I imagine it is a good thing for the game that there are long TFs that are difficult to organise. It makes them more valuable as "Epic content".
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It's silly to try and balance the rewards for TFs depending on how 'difficult' it is.
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It's silly to think otherwise. There should be a difference in rewards for a 30 minute TF and a 6 hour TF other than an Attaboy.
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Players who are farming TFs for drops won't really care what TF it is - they will work out which TF they can run the fastest and do that one over and over. 'Tokens' might affect their choice of TF but it won't affect their enjoyment.
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The keyword there is enjoyment. People like to get drops they want, and sometimes they want it so much, that they are willing to run that same TF over and over, but it doesn't mean that it would be more enjoyable than some other TF. The only reason they are running KHTF is because it's short, not because it's fun. It would be something I wouldn't mind see getting fixed.
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For everyone else the TF itself is the reward. The drop at the end should is nowhere near as important as the content of the TF.
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That is the case for only a very small percentage of people. The rewards should equal the risk. I see no reason to run any TF's that are not in my level range of gaining xp for a toon other than getting a badge. After that, I will never run that particular TF again for that toon.
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I almost wish they would sub-divide Pool C into two pools:
One for the "Junk" recipes awards at the end of Story Arcs and Ouroboros "TFs".
The other containing the high-end recipes people want after running a TF/SF.
The drop rates should get a little boost and it should allow everyone on the team to receive a drop so there's no penalty to teaming.
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You mean split it into a mission drop pool and a TF pool? That's what we have now, pool B is for missions, and C is for TFs. The real issue is that there's no weighting by power type so that there's a scarcity of certain extremely common categories: all damage types but Sniper: ranged, melee, targeted AoE and PBAoE; arguably, healing sets and some defense and resistance. Possibly also pet recipes villain side.
And, what's trash to someone might be a treasure to another. There are people who like and can use mez sets, for instance. Someone else might throw out a mez drop as "trash" because they can only vendor it for 5000, or recently they've seen it sell at trash prices, 1000 (maybe someone was selling for badge progress). Yet, out there, someone else might really want that set and would be happy to pay 10x vendor value on, 50-80k. 50k might not be worth someone's time, or it might be if they have slots to spare. The economy we have, actually, is still young. It's every bit as "real" as if a new country started up somewhere in the world today and just went into business.
Part of the underlying problem is that the public doesn't have a very standardized idea of 'value' and that means that the market can careen wildly. For instance, as a general rule of thumb whenever you buy something, use it, and go to sell it used, you can expect to charge about half what you paid new for. The price of selling a dropped piece of salvage to a vendor could be thought of as that half-price value. Thus, the more ideal price for any piece of salvage on the market would be 2x the vendor price: 500, 2k, or 10k. Something that gets used more than other things, for instance Luck Charms, should be scaled off that. Realistically, a Luck Charm should be worth in the range of 2500 to 5000 influence, not 80k.
If people had a more consistent expectation about making money on the market, they would be doing that instead of trashing or vendoring so much, and that would self-reinforce and even out the supply. There are always going to be some things that are less valuable, but that's ok too. If out of 10 drops you get 1 that's trash and 1 that's worth 10x normal and the other 8 are regular not outstanding sellers, you're still coming out ahead.
What would help? After reading all this and thinking about how many things I've vendored/trashed because I'm out of slots ... more slots would help. So would a recipe storage system (I find I have to store a lot of recipes either because I need an expensive ingredient OR if I am waiting on getting several set pieces together). Also, it would be nice if I could transfer recipes to my other characters without having to get someone to "hold" something for me. (With a few that are alts in the same SG I can craft an IO and pass it over, but mostly I can't do that.) So, my thought is that some kind of account based storage or intermediary system would help, even if it was just 10 slots.
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Something that gets used more than other things, for instance Luck Charms, should be scaled off that. Realistically, a Luck Charm should be worth in the range of 2500 to 5000 influence, not 80k.
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Realistically, things cost what people pay for them.
Only in Fantasyland where the magic ponies roam are luck charms "worth" less than a crummy tech rare.
People who want a store are never going to be satisfied with a market.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Mean Auction House vs. Consignment House?
I am looking for a third option due to not being able to get items in the Random Drop system or the Consignment house.
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Mean Auction House vs. Consignment House?
I am looking for a third option due to not being able to get items in the Random Drop system or the Consignment house.
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Longtime, as beautiful as your dream is I fear you may have to let it go.
Alas, the chances of our coldhearted dev overlords investing in yet another way for players to outfit themselves with goodies are vanishingly small.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
I am a person that has faith.
Heard the same thing when fighting for the IO system. Especially after it was not implemented after ED.
That it was never going to happen or the fix to Def.
Also heard similar things from Statesman (Jack Emmert), I had to fight him on the boards to get respecs in the game, He did say at one point respecs would be in the game over his dead body. I convinced him that respecs were needed, I did have help. When I was in a one on one battle with him, I was sure that he was going to ban me at any minute. Respecs are now in the game.
If were list everything I had done for the game the list would be pretty long.
I think if a good idea was thought up and it would solve problem the Devs would jump on it. Some bad ideas that would solve problem the Devs have jumped on like ED.
Nethergoat, I hate to say this, for the most part I think we are in agreement on most issue on the market. I am pushing for a market merger, if the Devs say it is never going to happen for some reason, I don't believe them.
I find it interesting that Stateman was mentioned here. As I remember him posting, at one time, about how he originally didn't want to have NPC merchants selling enhancements, but they would instead be something which players would receive as drops and sell to each other (sounds familiar).
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I am a person that has faith.
Heard the same thing when fighting for the IO system.
Also heard similar things from Statesman (Jack Emmert), I had to fight him on the boards to get respecs in the game, He did say at one point respecs would be in the game over his dead body. I convinced him that respecs were needed....
If were list everything I had done for the game the list would be pretty long.
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They need to get rid of the statue of that fat bald dude in front of the Kings Row train station and replace it with a tribute to a true titan of the game, LONGTIME.
*bow & scrape*
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I am a person that has faith.
Heard the same thing when fighting for the IO system.
Also heard similar things from Statesman (Jack Emmert), I had to fight him on the boards to get respecs in the game, He did say at one point respecs would be in the game over his dead body. I convinced him that respecs were needed....
If were list everything I had done for the game the list would be pretty long.
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They need to get rid of the statue of that fat bald dude in front of the Kings Row train station and replace it with a tribute to a true titan of the game, LONGTIME.
*bow & scrape*
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Indeed.
I am not interested in a statue.
Most of the time, I end up being a negotiator, the thing in my posts are examples of things player have gotten in game by proving to the Devs they were needed.
Also need to remember, I was fighting some of the same name to get a Store implement to sell stuff before live; I was not the only voice. It was something I was quite passionate about and I am sure my post reflected that.
I am here to help and to find out what needs to be fixed, (I agree the market by itself maybe find) and suggest a way to fix it. I tend to try to post solution rather than whine. (If say why do I think I can fix things, the answer is I have been doing this for a longtime).
I have been whining. It's more do to a group of people that are more interested in protecting status quo rather than looking at constructive way to help the market. Nethergoat, Last I checked you were not 100% happy with the market.
I am at the point, where I would rather have the Caramell Dance in game over a fixing to the market.
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Part of the underlying problem is that the public doesn't have a very standardized idea of 'value' and that means that the market can careen wildly. For instance, as a general rule of thumb whenever you buy something, use it, and go to sell it used, you can expect to charge about half what you paid new for. The price of selling a dropped piece of salvage to a vendor could be thought of as that half-price value. Thus, the more ideal price for any piece of salvage on the market would be 2x the vendor price: 500, 2k, or 10k. Something that gets used more than other things, for instance Luck Charms, should be scaled off that. Realistically, a Luck Charm should be worth in the range of 2500 to 5000 influence, not 80k.
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See my sig. The ancient Romans had it all figured out over 2100 years ago. Our CoH public has it figured out. No one has to pay 80k since everyone can produce their own luck charm especially since Flashback was added.
If enough buyers think that 80k is worth it that's the price it will be. If no one thinks that 80k is worth it then a luck charm priced at 80k won't sell - ever. Especially considering that in 20 minutes of Flashing back you can pick one up your self if you don't like the price.
If you just said in your head "20 minutes! I can make way more than 80k with my level 50 fire/kin in less than 20 seconds!" Then you understand why the price is what it is.
If you didn't say that then you need to get any toon up to 50 and play out of super group mode for an hour. You will understand why luck charms sell for 80k and you will also, at that point, realize that the price of luck charms will never be 5k unless the devs make some fairly substantial changes to recipes, drop rates, or content. None of which seems that likely to me.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
My issue is that if you want salvage you can get the salvage. But getting salvage is counter intuitive to teaming. If you team someone else gets your drop or the drop you would sell to buy your drop. At the same time the rate in which one IO's out their 50 is in a matter of days. So saving up for that day becomes difficult because of storage limitation unless you make mules.
So why team if you are producing your own goods. That is part of the reasons why cov has fewer teams. Because not everyone can afford to team because of drop rates.
Recipe drops from taskforces is another thing. The prices of the taskforce rares went up after the recent changes to how the mobs spawn. It made it so the production of the rares everyone wanted cranked out at a decent pace. I've done my share of Cap SF's. I've dumped a lot of stuff on the market just because none where listed because they sold for crap. The only way to make these taskforce drops more reasonable/accessible is give villians a Kattie Hannon like tf.
Nerfing power leveling only lowers the amount of influence people will have access to and will only drive prices up more.
The real issues isn't the market or the system but the rate in which we want to finish IO'ing out our toons versus the Dev's time table for that accomplishment.
For anyone running in SG mode from 1 to 50, I would suggest not running it at 30 or at least look at your awards once in a while.
Orbroso portal temp power can go away and only comes back after doing special mission or maybe with a full moon. Not many people are aware of this.
Need to remember not everyone has a 50. Need to remember that a number of players like myself are on more than one server. Any new server a perons starts on they won't have a 50 on. Trading influance/Infamy between servers is not recommended.
I would like the Devs to do something.
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My issue is that if you want salvage you can get the salvage. But getting salvage is counter intuitive to teaming. If you team someone else gets your drop or the drop you would sell to buy your drop. At the same time the rate in which one IO's out their 50 is in a matter of days. So saving up for that day becomes difficult because of storage limitation unless you make mules.
So why team if you are producing your own goods. That is part of the reasons why cov has fewer teams. Because not everyone can afford to team because of drop rates.
Recipe drops from taskforces is another thing. The prices of the taskforce rares went up after the recent changes to how the mobs spawn. It made it so the production of the rares everyone wanted cranked out at a decent pace. I've done my share of Cap SF's. I've dumped a lot of stuff on the market just because none where listed because they sold for crap. The only way to make these taskforce drops more reasonable/accessible is give villians a Kattie Hannon like tf.
Nerfing power leveling only lowers the amount of influence people will have access to and will only drive prices up more.
The real issues isn't the market or the system but the rate in which we want to finish IO'ing out our toons versus the Dev's time table for that accomplishment.
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As far as the KHTF goes, to balance it in respect to the Cap SF, (and all the blue side players will hate me for this) the easiest thing for the devs to do would be to add about 4-10 minutes to it. A couple of things that should be fairly easy to do to cause this to happen.
Add 3 keys and 3 doors to the Amy Johnson mission. That means that you have to clear a Fiend and his spawn in 3 of the rooms to get the key to open the door to the next chamber. Solo stealth + recall team gets the nerf here since you will have to have 3 folks with the vet power or a player with recall friend. That should add about 2-5 minutes to the TF and prevents the timid door huddle of the non-stealthers.
Then all the devs have to do is give Katie tactics. That is enough + perception to cause her to aggro on the nearby mobs and it means the whole team has to come free her and wipe the mobs in her vicinity that will add about 2-5 more minutes to the TF. Which would make Katie and Virgil about the same amount of time.
The rest balances out. Virgil drops tier 1 salvage but has a better chance of dropping the "good stuff" due to minimum level requirements. Katie drops tier 2 and tier 3 salvage but has the full range of junk available due to minimum level requirements.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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From a market profiteer point of view it would of course be bad, but frankly, I don't care all that much about that group of people.
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Since a major function of the market is to entertain and involve "profiteers", that diversity would seem to be a conscious design element.
I'll take the interest and concern of the devs over yours any day. =)
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone