Drop Rates Weighted by Supply/Demand...Possible?
By
Aura_Familia,
Posted on: 2008-04-08 07:51 in The Market and Inventions
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Example 1) Smoke grenades. As designed they were fine but as implemented they were clearly broken. This was detected (after how long I don't know, before my time), verified and then fixed.
Example 2) SG Bases. Some of the Devs have flat out stated that the players did not use Bases as they'd intended. Ok, I don't know HOW they intended for them to be used but if the playerbase surprised them that much doesn't that mean that their design might have been flawed?
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A bugged power was fixed.
Players did something unexpected with a system that had no precedent.
What's any of that got to do with the market?
It was built off a proven real-world framework, is working just as you'd expect given its ground rules, and in spite of the wailing and gnashing of teeth from certain quarters it isn't bugged.
You may not like the way it works, but you're dreaming up this complex solution to something that isn't a problem.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I just don't see why the game has to continue dropping Snipe sets at the same rate when there are 1000 of them for sale right now.
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because they keep the rare stuff rare.
the psychological effectiveness of a random drop system is in the 'random'. flatten the randomness and it's less appealing to players.
Let's take Ryu.
Ryu has run who know how many TFs in pursuit of those few lottery drops everyone wants. A few hundred? More? A lot, anyway.
He did this because he didn't get what he wanted.
If he'd gotten some sort of "balanced" drop rate he would have gotten what he wanted and stopped running TFs.
The same thing is true for any drop- the less random you make it, the more predictable the outcome is, the less appealing & addictive it will be to your players.
'balanced' drops resulting in more 'good stuff' reduce incentive to play the game.
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I begin to see the differences in our thinking processes.
Your thoughts: If the rare stuff becomes too common then everyone will have one and it's no longer rare (which is totally true).
If the rare stuff becomes too common then the prices will plummet and then those that don't get the drop will simply buy them. (also totally true)
But here is where the agreement ends I'm afraid.
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because they keep the rare stuff rare.
the psychological effectiveness of a random drop system is in the 'random'. flatten the randomness and it's less appealing to players.
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Not everyone plays the lottery because they don't see any benefit to spending their money (which for most people costs them time to earn) for a slim chance of winning something.
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Let's take Ryu.
Ryu has run who know how many TFs in pursuit of those few lottery drops everyone wants. A few hundred? More? A lot, anyway.
He did this because he didn't get what he wanted.
If he'd gotten some sort of "balanced" drop rate he would have gotten what he wanted and stopped running TFs.
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Again, not everyone feels this way. I've run several trials of one kind or another. I still do, when they're in my level range and I can get exps for them. I don't exempt down for them because the few times I have I wound up spending my time, sometimes hours of it, for a Snipe recipe and some tech salvage that I deleted anyway.
I can understand your side of the arguement and it makes total sense to many. If everyone wanted a Mercedes and was willing to work their [censored] off for it then just giving them one would take away their incentive for work right?
But why should there be only ONE incentive for work? As I said I don't exempt down to do Trials because the chance for reward is too slim. It makes more sense to me to go out and play, earn exps and Inf, and then buy what I want rather than play the lottery in the hope of getting it. The only exception is respec Trials because then I can always keep the respec.
My way even if I don't earn enough to get what I want I earned exps, had fun, saw game content. By your example Ryu saw the same crap hour after hour, day after day for how long? If he had simply played the game would he have been able to buy what he wanted instead of shooting craps for it? Sounds too much like work to me.
I can work for a month and save the money for a new television or I can spend a dollar a piece on every raffle in town hoping for one. No offense but my way makes a ton more sense to me...
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The same thing is true for any drop- the less random you make it, the more predictable the outcome is, the less appealing & addictive it will be to your players.
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Where I come from most forms of addiction are bad for you...
I am NOT saying give everything to everybody. I'm NOT saying take away any of the rewards for people to play as they are right now. If a Numina's Unique costs 100 million today and costs 95 million tomorrow becaues there are 5 more of them for sale tell me where the harm is in that? If the Comp Virus that sells for 10 today sells for 250 tomorrow tell me where the harm is in THAT?
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'balanced' drops resulting in more 'good stuff' reduce incentive to play the game.
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And this would be true...IF everyone who played cared about the drops. Believe it or not some of us play to play...to see game content...to use our Powers to do cool stuff. I never saw the Market and Inventions as the game itself...merely an extension of it. Some ppl here talk about game content as if it was only a means to the end of having the coolest stuff. For some it is...but what about the rest of us?
This idea that only allowing the 'good stuff' to drop one time in a hundred or more is a bit of a boggle for me. But then my definition of 'good stuff' is a bit broader than some. Take for example the Thunderstrike Ranged Damage set. I LOVE this thing! With 4 of the 6 pieces I can get +Recovery, +Nrg Def and +Acc. Some pieces of these sets cost relatively little (100k or less) and the salvage to craft many of them is not bad either. I see this as 'good stuff' for a drop. Even if that toon can't use it I'm sure another on that server can so I call it a win. So if my chances of getting some of these went up would I do more Trials? Bet your butt I would!
Not EVERY player thinks that everything beneath a Numina's Unique is junk you know. Some are just fine with some of the mid-grade sets that the min/maxers disregard. Fine for me...makes them cheaper to buy them.
As for scarcity of something making the content more desireable? Sorry...ya got me there too. I'd rather do Scanners/Papers for an evening and have guarenteed reward than run a trial I loathe (looking at the Positron's here...) for a 1/50 chance for something I want. I amy be the odball player because of this but there it is.
Gambling is just not my thing I guess.
So...all this being said. Instead of trying to coerce players to do Trials that they don't want (for whatever reason) by bribing them with a 1/100 chance for something spectacular why not try giving them a 1/10 chance for something not bad?
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
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So...all this being said. Instead of trying to coerce players to do Trials that they don't want (for whatever reason) by bribing them with a 1/100 chance for something spectacular why not try giving them a 1/10 chance for something not bad?
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Why does this have to be dynamic, though? If you just have a static weighting so that you get something that's not Trap of the Hunter or Perfect Zinger at least 1 in 5... doesn't that do the same thing without all the extra complications of adjusting drop rates based on the market?
Besides, past performance is not always a good prediction of future performance. Say by chance you end up with 15 people working on the field crafter badge and you have a huge demand increase on certain salvage. All over the game, drop rates change. The field crafters potentially finish most of their badge before even half of the adjusted drops reach the market. So then it goes the other way, with a topsy turvy supply & demand, trying to get the thermostat to just the right spot when it's constantly changing.
Keeping a static drop rate, but one more in line with the potential powerset slotting is much more simple and seems like it's a lot less likely to change the market based on what the state was, not what it's going to be.
Also - rather than supply vs. demand it would actually make more sense to have it look at how many of X drops were deleted or sold to a vendor. Then lower their drop rate on the grounds that they're 'unwanted'. Having an arbitrary value still seems to make the most sense though.
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So after all of this do I really need to make a stronger case for some sort of Market change?
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Well...yes. You've said a lot, but not said a lot. 
Let me try a distillation:
1) You think the market is not working as designed.
2) Your reason for thinking this is twofold: a) lots of players are complaining about it, and b) (the main reason) The Market as designed was a mistake from the start in your opinion.
3) Lots of stuff about nades, bases, Hami raids, cars, and idiots.
4) A rousing speech on the order of Animal House's "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"
This is not a case. Why? Nothing logically follows from the fact that people complain. The only thing that can be concluded is that they have a complaint.
Similarly, nothing logically follows from you thinking the devs made a mistake in the designing of the market if you don't flesh out why you think it was a mistake.
As shown by the devs when they rolled out the system, a market was implemented as a compliment to the invention (loot/crafting) system. A game has to have both. As a design constraint, the two systems had to fit into what is seen as a more casual MMO and had to not be necessary to play the game. This critical design spec (which the players were told repeatedly) was met. In addition, a market that collects fees is a needed influence sink. Market is therefore working as designed. The burden therefore is on you to show otherwise. Similarly, it was seen as a long-term objective to have CoX be more competitive in the MMO market, and that market features competitors with varying degrees of marketing and crafting. The jury is out as to whether it was a smart business decision (the last round of subscriber figures suggest that it was not a smart decision, but we need a couple more quarters of subscriber info to really draw a definitive conclusion as to which way our subscriber base is trending).
Now what is a legitimate gripe is that the market and IO systems have a much steeper learning curve then the CoX game itself. This is being addressed to a point (and as Ex Libris pointed out, needs more work). Interface changes you pointed out, as well as the new login screen pointing people to sources for help works, too. These efforts since last year are having an effect, at least anecdotally. I take care to observe all my PUG-mates in a few regards: vet badges, set bonuses, crafting badges, and sales badges. I know just from my observations that people are more apt to have sales badges now regardless of time spent in the game and crafting badges are also starting to go up. Set bonuses are not rare any more (but they aren't extensive until you have regular contact with TF runners).
Back to the complaints. We've had the spectrum here, from Veruca Salt, to people protecting their market shares (if you're wondering about the raised eyebrows to Ex Libris' post, it's because her post sounds like someone trying to protect her market share instead of improve the game, which is kind of weird coming from a company rep), to people who have research (witness KeepDistance's thread in Inventions on map-dependent drop rates as the latest version of someone with some data).
If our devs caved to every Veruca that came along, that would be horrendous. Heck, I feel bad for our devs handing out Vet Rewards. Who knew there would be such a hue and cry (and outright hostility) from folks getting something for long term customer loyalty?
On the other end of the spectrum, data can be looked at. EvilRyu's thread on TF drop rates is a decent example. One can read the thread and draw conclusions. Similarly in the map-dependent drop thread, one can pull up those maps and replicate the results.
Here's the thing: If the problem you are trying to suggest a fix for is not well defined, you can't fix it. So far, as you've defined it, is that you think the market is a mistake and that people complain. Your solution (tie all drops to an exceptionally gameable system) would not appear to fix either problem.
If the problem you're trying to fix is something else, perhaps that product availability villain-side is a pain, or that recipe drops need to be tuned up, or that population issues villain-side need to be addressed, gameable drop systems won't help any of those. Right now a random system (if it is in fact random 100% of the time) can not be gamed.
Regardless of how you end up defining the problem you are trying to fix, I certainly don't want to see the devs willy-nilly throwing a fix in there. The last time they did that--the costume fiasco--they explicitly abandoned their stated design spec (that costume drops should be rare and valuable), and instead of tuning them to a value somewhere under 1 million (rare arcane salvage goes for over a million; it's not a bad target--at the very least somewhere in the 300-500K range), they're pretty much worthless (most of them that I list sell for 50, occasionally a couple thousand).
President of the Arbiter Sands fan club. We will never forget.
An Etruscan Snood will nevermore be free
So you contend the devs do not want people playing to get the good stuff? Then why have any drop system and market? Just put it all in stores at dev set prices.
Having a zillion Numina's available makes drops stupid and pointless. Just like having costume recipes drop is now stupid and pointless.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Again, not everyone feels this way.
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not everyone feels ANY way.
but the psychological foundation of random drops is proven science.
The devs opted to follow the path blazed by other MMOs & supported by clinical studies. And it's working great.
So, uh, good luck with your crusade.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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not everyone feels ANY way.
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I do.
President of the Arbiter Sands fan club. We will never forget.
An Etruscan Snood will nevermore be free
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not everyone feels ANY way.
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I do.
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You would
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
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not everyone feels ANY way.
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I do.
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You would
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doo doo
Settle in kids...we're gonna be here a while...
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Nothing logically follows from the fact that people complain. The only thing that can be concluded is that they have a complaint.
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So in your eyes how many people have to have a complaint before it becomes a valid point? Pick a number, post it here and then count the number of different posters that say they want the Markets merged or changed in some way.
While it is true that 1000 complainers need not all be right, if there are THAT many how is it possible that ALL of them are wrong? Doesn't the topic of their complaint at least need to be considered?
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Similarly, nothing logically follows from you thinking the devs made a mistake in the designing of the market if you don't flesh out why you think it was a mistake.
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And here I agree with you. My earlier post was made in the rush of the moment and more than a bit disjointed. So I will try to elaborate:
IMHO the basic idea for Inventions and the Market were good ones however the implementation leaves something to be desired. Since I don't have access to datamining the following is speculation but since I don't any players with access to datamining their rebuttals are largely speculation as well.
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As shown by the devs when they rolled out the system, a market was implemented as a compliment to the invention (loot/crafting) system. A game has to have both. As a design constraint, the two systems had to fit into what is seen as a more casual MMO and had to not be necessary to play the game. This critical design spec (which the players were told repeatedly) was met. In addition, a market that collects fees is a needed influence sink. Market is therefore working as designed.
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The Market As An Inf Sink: I have not seen the devs state this in print but the fees imposed on the Market seem to bear this out. The devs saw the piles of Inf on some toons as a bad thing and decided to find a better way to siphon them off than costume pieces. All well and good in theory.
Like many players I used to have trouble getting a toon tricked out with SOs by level 22. It was difficult to earn enough Inf even in I saved everything I earned and didn't buy any intermediate DOs. Now under Inventions my heroes will typically have close to a million Inf by the low teens and my villians the same soon after. Now since I don't believe that I'm a Market Master I believe that such early wealth is possible for nearly everyone.
So most of the toons go from not having a few hundred thousand Inf by lvl 22 to having more than a million 5 levels below that. How is this an Inf sink again? How many posters here explain in detail that they can earn millions in an hour of play? How many could have earned that much simply through missions and sweeping before?
To me, all of this indicates that if the Market was designed as an Inf sink then it has failed.
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Similarly, it was seen as a long-term objective to have CoX be more competitive in the MMO market, and that market features competitors with varying degrees of marketing and crafting. The jury is out as to whether it was a smart business decision (the last round of subscriber figures suggest that it was not a smart decision, but we need a couple more quarters of subscriber info to really draw a definitive conclusion as to which way our subscriber base is trending).
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Ok, so based on recent numbers you're willing to admit that the Inventions and Market systems, as implemented, may have been a mistake. This is all I'm asking here.
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Here's the thing: If the problem you are trying to suggest a fix for is not well defined, you can't fix it. So far, as you've defined it, is that you think the market is a mistake and that people complain. Your solution (tie all drops to an exceptionally gameable system) would not appear to fix either problem.
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No, no and...by the way...no. I have said, repeatedly, that I LIKE the Invention system. However, that does not change the fact that I think that it was improperly implemented.
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If the problem you're trying to fix is something else, perhaps that product availability villain-side is a pain, or that recipe drops need to be tuned up, or that population issues villain-side need to be addressed, gameable drop systems won't help any of those. Right now a random system (if it is in fact random 100% of the time) can not be gamed.
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A random system cannot be gamed. So the system we have right now (which is supposed to be random) cannot be gamed? Wow, big surprise to those who do it every day then.
There is another thread here about a group of players who make a concerted effort to bring the price of Luck Charms down. They all collect as many as they can and sell them for lower prices. Ok, but what if they'd decided to just hold them to drive the prices up and then sell them for outrageous profit? Even though they paid a bundle for the last few they would have made so much more than they lost selling them back at a trickle. Meanwhile the casual player who needs one to craft something is out of luck because Luck Charms are suddenly selling for a million Inf each.
There are lots of threads here about how players game the system all the time. I have trouble understanding how you cannot see this.
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Regardless of how you end up defining the problem you are trying to fix, I certainly don't want to see the devs willy-nilly throwing a fix in there. The last time they did that--the costume fiasco--they explicitly abandoned their stated design spec (that costume drops should be rare and valuable), and instead of tuning them to a value somewhere under 1 million (rare arcane salvage goes for over a million; it's not a bad target--at the very least somewhere in the 300-500K range), they're pretty much worthless (most of them that I list sell for 50, occasionally a couple thousand).
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Ok, I'm failing to see the problem there. Costumes have no effect in-game other than looking pretty. They do not in any way affect a character's Regen rate, Recovery, Defense or anything else. This being the case why is the fact that they are no longer rare and selling for millions each a problem? Of course this comes from the advocate of all costume pieces available to everyone so we have a difference of opinion there.
By the way, this latest example covers both my assertations that the devs are not always right (as in their idea of how Inventions and the Market was implemented may not have been right) and the fact that enough players complaining CAN sway the devs from whatever their original vision is. So, they saw costume pieces as being very rare and therefore expensive. A BUNCH of players howled and the devs adjusted the drop rates.
So...a simple case of the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Now we come back to how many posters want Inventions and/or the Market changed again? The wheel is sounding pretty squeaky to me...The fact thet Ex Libris posted Posi's thoughts on the matter tells me it's sounding squeaky to them too.
Now let me get back to the fact that you feel that my original complaint lacked definition and let me define it as I see it:
When Inventions was launched redside already had fewer players than blueside because of the simple fact that blueside had a head start. No disputes here.
The fact that blueside had a headstart likely told the devs that blueside had more accumulated Inf as well. Ok, no problems there either.
The devs then perceived this disparity in liquid Inf as being too big an advantage for blueside over red. Items hitting the Market would be snapped up by wealthier heroes who had an unfair advantage over villains and as a result the Markets were created as seperate entities. Here is where it all falls apart for me.
When the devs created the Invention system they should have realized that the advantage of blueside over red was not simply in population. Many heroes had huge piles of liquid Inf which they cheerfully dropped on what they desired most. Heroes had the KH TF which got farmed and to death by many players. This dropped a disproportionate number of recipes in the blueside Market. The playerbase for heroes was more experienced and as a result they could run trials faster and earn more drops per hour. They also knew their toons better, having had more time to tweak them and learn what worked and what didn't. All of this adds up to the fact that the blueside Market soon became a thriving enterprise.
Now since I9 did not create any players (IIRC the account numbers were about balanced at this time) This means that there are a finite number of player hours in a day. Blueside has a thriving Market for all the reasons listed above and more. Since this is a zero-sum problem a thriving Market heroside costs the villainside.
The number of players redside, already lower then blueside, began to drop. Players LIKED Inventions and more players blueside meant easier times gathering PUGs to run the TFs with the sought-after recipes. Also the KH TF and others made farming for such treasures easier than redside. All of this means that players who wanted to participate in a healthy, thriving Market leaned toward the blue side. This cost the redside player numbers which started a downward slide. An anemic market (relatively speaking) meant fewer players played thair villains. This made the Market even MORE anemic which drove even more players away. So far new content has affected both sides more or less equally so no big increase there.
Man players want the Markets merged...but why? Many feel that it woud be more fair. Or that it would be the fastest, best way to even out the economies. The devs have stated flat-out NO for now so the player desires are a moot point.
Now if the redside Market could be improved without merging the Markets wouldn't that be a good thing? You can't show favoritism to one side or the other will cry foul so whatever happens to one will happen to the other.
So what are the redside Market complaints about? High prices? Yeah, players gripe about those. Lack of stuff to buy? yeah, redside has that too. Sluggish...as in even the relatively tasty thing I just listed to sell takes a week to sell of where it might have gone in an hour blueside? Yep, players dislike that too.
Now some posters like the idea of adjusting the drop rates to match the usefulness of an item. I like this plan personally despite the opposition. It mirrors the real world so players can relate to it and the huge gluts of some items will eventually fade.
But what happens when the devs make a new Power set or a new IO set? A whole new Power set that uses several Sleep and/or Disorient sets would please many players. Now the sets for those Powers that dropped are more likely to be used and since the market is glutted with them getting some nice stuff would be fairly cheap at first. But too many of a single type of Power or IO set might confuse the Market for a while, making it ripe to be exploited.
My system, properly implemented, would save the devs time when trying to balance things in the future. The prices of the rarest items could very well stay the same (maybe a hiccup as the market settled out) if the devs set those drop rate rarities high enough. So no Numina's for 100k ever. Yeah, the price of many junk items would rise but that means that it can be sold for a profit as well as costing more buy it so to me this evens out.
So, I WANT the Markets merged. If that won't happen then IMHO the redside Market has to be altered to make it more desirable to play there. This will bring more players which, in turn will make the BM better and so on upwards until a good level is found.
Contrary to what many may think I am NOT advocating just handing stuff away. I am NOT saying that the drop rates on the ultra-rare stuff should be adjusted much if at all. These are the extreme end of the scale and as a result SHOULD be incredibly difficult to come by.
But on the other side of the coin why does there HAVE to be so much junk? Explain to me why a producer of Good X would continue making their product if 1000 cans sat on the shelf? Sure, after the glut sells off players who buy their tech commons for 25 Inf now might be dissappointed that they have to pay 300 Inf for the same junk. But if the price is that high then they can also SELL the junk they get from drops for a higher price too. Explain to me how this is a bad thing?
To me ALL of this means that players who simply play the game come out ahead.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
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The best I've heard so far, first from Ilr was to simply have the drops tilted towards the actual use of them. Remaining fixed like that it would allow anything to drop, but would also keep it proprtionately in balance.
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You mean like skewing the number of Snipe and Melee drops relative to each other to better reflect the relative amount of Snipe and Melee powers in play?
I'm not so sure about that. Inevitably, the rate never can get pinned right where people want it, so everyone just keeps asking for it to be tweaked. (aka, create an endless string of "I'm not getting what i want, the problem MUST be the drop rates! We must tweak them further!")
My favorite idea is to let demand directly affect drop rates. Instead of dropping a random recipe, pick 2 at random and give someone a choice. Then supply will eventually favor demand with less randomness.
That works for pools C+D, is there a way it could work for pool A?
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I'd love to comment on this but I'm already really busy doing a ton of "chasing down" on the market right now in preparation for i12 powersets so I can't get started on it. But I do look forward to Really discussing everything about it down the road b/c I think both ens of the spectrum have their merits And issues as well...
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Settle in kids...we're gonna be here a while...
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Nothing logically follows from the fact that people complain. The only thing that can be concluded is that they have a complaint.
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So in your eyes how many people have to have a complaint before it becomes a valid point? Pick a number, post it here and then count the number of different posters that say they want the Markets merged or changed in some way.
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The number of complainers has 0 relationship to the validity of a complaint.
Go have children and get back to us.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Settle in kids...we're gonna be here a while...
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Nothing logically follows from the fact that people complain. The only thing that can be concluded is that they have a complaint.
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So in your eyes how many people have to have a complaint before it becomes a valid point? Pick a number, post it here and then count the number of different posters that say they want the Markets merged or changed in some way.
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The number of complainers has 0 relationship to the validity of a complaint.
Go have children and get back to us.
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Got 2, one married and one in college.
Any USEFUL comments?
I feel that the number of complainers has a LOT to do with the validity of the complaint because these complainers happen to be the people who play the game and pay for everything.
As I mentioned before, the PLAYERS groused about the costume recipe drop rate and the devs adjusted it. There was no data that I know of to show that the drop rate was not EXACTLY where the devs wanted it. But the players complained and the rate got changed.
You STILL think that the number of complaints has nothing to do with validity? 1% of the player base griping about something can be written off as just plain griping. 10% of the player base griping about something starts to get noticed because it's tough to believe that 1000 people can be wrong about the same thing at the same time.
The complainers that you are so willing to dismiss are the people who help pay for this game. Not ALL of them can be wrong...
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
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Settle in kids...we're gonna be here a while...
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Nothing logically follows from the fact that people complain. The only thing that can be concluded is that they have a complaint.
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So in your eyes how many people have to have a complaint before it becomes a valid point? Pick a number, post it here and then count the number of different posters that say they want the Markets merged or changed in some way.
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The number of complainers has 0 relationship to the validity of a complaint.
Go have children and get back to us.
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Got 2, one married and one in college.
Any USEFUL comments?
I feel that the number of complainers has a LOT to do with the validity of the complaint because these complainers happen to be the people who play the game and pay for everything.
As I mentioned before, the PLAYERS groused about the costume recipe drop rate and the devs adjusted it. There was no data that I know of to show that the drop rate was not EXACTLY where the devs wanted it. But the players complained and the rate got changed.
You STILL think that the number of complaints has nothing to do with validity? 1% of the player base griping about something can be written off as just plain griping. 10% of the player base griping about something starts to get noticed because it's tough to believe that 1000 people can be wrong about the same thing at the same time.
The complainers that you are so willing to dismiss are the people who help pay for this game. Not ALL of them can be wrong...
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Sure they can.
I'm sorry you didn't think it was useful, but that doesn't mean it wasn't true.
How many paying for the game demanding a "insta win" button would mean the devs need to put one in?
Yes, the number complaining has 0 relationship to the validity of a complaint. No one could complain, or just one person could, and a complaint can be completely legitimate.
Yes, they changed the costume drop rate and now they are stupid. They are just a pain. As cheap as they are, the costumes may as well be on the costume creator and not be recipes. Now if I want it, I have to go to the market and get the recipe (easy as pie), buy the salvage, craft, head to Icon and use a costume token or pay for the change there.
I didn't dismiss the complainers, I dismissed your point that the number of them means anything.
But if you want numbers, fine. Your complainers are outnumbered by those happy with the system. Or equal. Or about equal. Or more. So which group should the devs listen to? Both. Which group should the devs dance for? Neither.
The non-complainers are paying too.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Oh and I have 3 accounts so my vote is 3x yours. 
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Not ALL of them can be wrong...
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this is another common forum misconception, along with "all opinions are equally valid".
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
The number of complainers sure matters. Its democracy. Majority rules. Anything repeated often enough will be taken as the truth.
Just like all those who profess the current market mirrored after the real world economy is the most ideal. Such fallacy. All the real world economy does is to create bubbles that melt just like now.
Anything that will even vaguely help the BM gets a thumb-up from me.
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The number of complainers sure matters. Its democracy. Majority rules.
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It is ?
Seems more like a benevolent dictatorship (or maybe oligarcy). The devs have absolutely the final say. At best we can suggest and explain why we feel a way.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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The number of complainers sure matters. Its democracy. Majority rules.
[/ QUOTE ]
It is ?
Seems more like a benevolent dictatorship (or maybe oligarcy). The devs have absolutely the final say. At best we can suggest and explain why we feel a way.
[/ QUOTE ]
No no no. It's a democracy.
ED must be removed.
GDN must be removed.
The AoE max targets must be removed.
Powerset respecification must be added.
Crossover must be added.
Customizable powers stat!
Feel free to add all the others I am missing that the majority has demanded.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Stalkers must be buffed and Stalkers must be nerfed.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Seems more like a benevolent dictatorship
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I thought we were an autonomous collective...
*runs*
President of the Arbiter Sands fan club. We will never forget.
An Etruscan Snood will nevermore be free
*beats on Squez*
Ah.
Now we see the violence inherent in the system.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Stalkers must be buffed and Stalkers must be nerfed.
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I hope you have anti-paradox software installed. 
I don't. /em headasplode!!!
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Stalkers must be berfed.
[/ QUOTE ]
President of the Arbiter Sands fan club. We will never forget.
An Etruscan Snood will nevermore be free
[ QUOTE ]
If numina's +rec/regen dropped as much as costume pieces i would love it for all my characters. But beyond outfitting all my toons I would simply delete any others i get. I most certainly would not be putting them on the market if the most I could get for them was a ridicuoulsly low price.
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This is another point- the rarity of the 'good stuff' is also a balance issue. They're as powerful as they are because not everyone will get them.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone