The City Scoop-June 29, 2007 Discussion & Feedback
By
13th_Stranger,
Posted on: 2007-06-29 24:14 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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The former is encouraging participation while the latter is confrontational and smacks vaguely of bullying in an effort to get the other party to 'back down'.
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We are only fans. Our critics are confrontational, bullying, insulting, and passionate. Why are you holding us to a higher standard?
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The former is encouraging participation while the latter is confrontational and smacks vaguely of bullying in an effort to get the other party to 'back down'.
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We are only fans. Our critics are confrontational, bullying, insulting, and passionate. Why are you holding us to a higher standard?
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Like it or not Hertz- even tho you aren't getting paid for the work that you do - you represent something larger then yourself. As long as you have that editor-in-chief title next to your name- no matter what you do/say will represent what the overall feeling of "the city scoop thinks" -- granted its not fair.. but lets look at it this way...
George Bush & Tony Blair are playin risk... both are drunk... they are just having a merry old time of it... George says to Tony... (in a really bad german accent) "Tony.. i will crush you like bug!" ... some1 over hears it... and says.. OMG not only does Bush HATE Tony Blair-- but he is gonna put as war with England next - and crush them!!!
Will it happen (happens everyday) things are taken outta context & applied an twisted so it fits a situation... is it fair to George W? nope, but it's because of that lil title next to his name that makes what he says represent something. Could I have come up with a better ananlogy?? prolly--- but just imagine George W tryin to do his best Schwartzennager (sp?) impression got me to LOL
"I don't wonda what Rose is like in RL, I just imagine she is a catgurl an' wish I could cyb0r wit her. "
- the legendary J-man
Silence!!! I kill you!
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The former is encouraging participation while the latter is confrontational and smacks vaguely of bullying in an effort to get the other party to 'back down'.
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We are only fans. Our critics are confrontational, bullying, insulting, and passionate. Why are you holding us to a higher standard?
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Like it or not Hertz- even tho you aren't getting paid for the work that you do - you represent something larger then yourself. As long as you have that editor-in-chief title next to your name- no matter what you do/say will represent what the overall feeling of "the city scoop thinks"
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And as long as the Scoop is published on the forums by Ex and linked to from the launch screen, there is the perception and impression that the publication is sponsored by or endorsed by NC Soft, whether or not that really is the case.
Sigh ... I have so got to stay out of this thread ...
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The former is encouraging participation while the latter is confrontational and smacks vaguely of bullying in an effort to get the other party to 'back down'.
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We are only fans. Our critics are confrontational, bullying, insulting, and passionate. Why are you holding us to a higher standard?
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Obviously somebody was holding you to a higher standard when they added the EIC title and gave you and the City Scoop staff unprecedented exposure for a player created publication. If you don't feel you have to live up to that standard as far as conducting yourselves, or you feel that it's unfair, that's your perogative. Like it or not, in many people's eyes that's going to reflect upon the publication itself.
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Why are you holding us to a higher standard?
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Because you chose to undertake the task. Doing it with good grace was, frankly, an unwritten part of the job description.
Any opinions expressed above are merely the poster's own and do not necessarily coincide with the goals or beliefs of the Secret Ruling Forum Cabal.
I see. Creation takes skill, grace, patience, and courage, and trolling takes a keyboard.
I will try to hold myself to a higher standard, and if I feel I can't do it, I'll resign.
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Creation takes skill, grace, patience, and courage, and trolling takes a keyboard.
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Yes.
Any opinions expressed above are merely the poster's own and do not necessarily coincide with the goals or beliefs of the Secret Ruling Forum Cabal.
Ok, after going down half the 2nd page I got tired of drinking the same old whine.
It has become apparent that a few people subscribe to the "I tell others what to do to make myself feel better but how dare they tell me what to do!" People are telling others NOTHING is good enough. they have flip flopped on what they wanted from 1 week to the next.
IMO I do not think writing an article on only 1 thing is good. I think it's much better to get the good, the bad, AND the ugly. All this hate mail because people felt left out is juvenile. Has it even occured that in doing a interview on a griefer or a troll could inform others so that they avoid those people?
As it is right now, I see griefers as those sociopathic people who do more to divide the community than anyone else. It's the spammers in Atlas who make people think "Oh, PLEASE let me level out of Atlas so I don't have to turn off Broadcast or see the same dang thing 50 times scroll in my chat box. It's the people who after being told 20 times that a channel is off limits to QKTF, but still spam out on that channel requests to do the QKTF or spam calling it other adjectives. IT is also those in PvP who harrass others to the point of forcing them out of zone with their spam kills and bully type taunts. It's the trolls who debate over and over in forums because they want to frustrate others by saying "who are you to tell me" or "but you agreed".
People rarely agree to anything that is common among such a large group. But showing people for who they are can help others. Heck, from one of the articles, I found someone I would not want to game with. Was it from the article? not directly. It was from comments about the interviewee after the article that helped me. The article can be a positive tool as well. it can point out people like channel creators on some of the servers, the players who have a story to tell about how they assisted another player who was getting griefed by someone. Basically, the article on players can be a tool that can be used by everyone to do anything from staying away from bad people to finding really good players who don't mind helping others.
I'm just seeing a bunch of people dumping on others. it's the dumping on that has some of the contributors saying they want feedback and then saying they don't.
I would LIKE to say what people could do, but that would just get the same "Don't tell ME what to do" response.
I tend to solo only because people in general act very much alike but say they are different. I latch on to the few connections I've made in the 2 years I've been playing this game because I know they generally play like I do.
This whole thing has really looked like a Jerry Springer show where people are talking AT each other and not TO each other with very little listening going on in between.
P.S. I've read most of the thread so I won't be coming back to this one. I've said my peace so following posts will not be read if directed to me personally.
The Behind the Mask is a brilliant idea.
As Teldon admitted it was great on Pinnicle when he knew the players, knew the community and was able to interview the people he knew were "famous" or worth knowing.
Then he decided to step it up into the grand stage. The behind the mask got bigger then he realized and was ready for.
The City Scoop is suppose to be a "community" paper that brings the "community" together. The community we are talking about are the people who read the forums. The city scoop is not written for some guy who never clicks on any of the links, has no idea there is a forum or even more of a community out there then his supergroup.
If they want to bring the community together then they obviously should be looking to talk about people the community cares about, which is the "famous" people on the forums.
Now the city scoop is a hand picked "famous" people on the forums. But there is a whole lot more people out there then just them who have helped build this community. And as Empress even admitted during the flame war she and I had, you guys need to do a pie load more research into who exactly is your community.
Then again, its obvious you all figured that much out.
An' its more then just freedom, since I posted that "city poop" thread (hmmm I do wonder why exactly it deserved to be locked) I've gotten pms from people on victory and lolprotector letting me know exactly what they have done for the community (quite a bit) and how exactly the city scoop has been going out of its way to ignore them.
not just behind the mask either 
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If they want to bring the community together then they obviously should be looking to talk about people the community cares about, which is the "famous" people on the forums.
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I'd like to point out that, while you have a valid point, you make a logical flaw here. Those people famous to their particular sections are famous 1) Only on the forums, which contains only a small amount of the total population of CoH/CoV. 2) Are famous to their sections. I bounce around the forums quite a bit, but I typically spend my time around the Forums Games, Hero/Villain Culture, and General CoH thread. In there, I can tell you the celebrities, why they are famous, and what memes there are in those sections. I don't expect anyone that doesn't frequent those sections to know. I've never seen Lemur_Lad in Forum Games, so I wouldn't expect him to be able to name the "Bounty Crew" off hand, just as I wouldn't expect LadyK to be familiar ShoNuff's famous tackles. To take it one step further, what kind of reaction do you think I get on my servers when I tell people I'm "THE Marcian Tobay"? None. Most people have never heard of me, and I'm fine with that. Considering anyone famous is inherently flawed for this reason. To want us to interview "famous people" ignores the above arguments.
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An' its more then just freedom, since I posted that "city poop" thread (hmmm I do wonder why exactly it deserved to be locked) I've gotten pms from people on victory and lolprotector letting me know exactly what they have done for the community (quite a bit) and how exactly the city scoop has been going out of its way to ignore them.
not just behind the mask either
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Since you seem to have some sway, JMan, would you be so kind as to ask those people to PM me? I'd love to discuss ways to instill measures that prevent us from overlooking any part of the City of X fan base. 
Also, someone mentioned above mentioned _Rose_. In response to that, I'd like to state that I cannot wait to see her article. A columnist-style editorial could be fantastic.
Or, boiling things down -
"Who is famous?" And similarly, "Who has done what for the community?"
This goes for people *and,* say, Supergroups. Do many people know the Legion of Catgirls? Well, we know them here because of Pep and Sleepy... but other than the occasional gathering on Guardian, are they a visible force? How about the Repeat Offenders - any one of their groups, or as a whole?
Is Thorazdin (I'm sure I butchered your name...) "famous?" I could probably wander into the zones, into PI, etc. and say his name and have people go "Wha... who? Whatever, PL me." How about Slyfe (if he still played?) Do non-PVPers care about either of them at all? I couldn't begin to fathom who's important in the RP community, on Virtue or any other server.
Who is famous, and who is just a "legend in their own mind?" And does it hold true outside of their fiefdom on any specific board, or the forum in general?
And how many of them who believe they are, and believe they're getting ignored, just aren't known outside of their circle?
What standards should be used for selection, for determining who had "done somethign" for the community? PLd the most people? Gave away most INF in costume contests? RPd the same character consistently the longest? Some people might find those to be *highly* important criteria - while others may shrug and go "Yeah, so?"
Do you really think anything close to a criteria that makes everyone - or even a majority - happy can really exist? All the CS folks can do is dip into the various communities on various servers and see what names they get.
Memphis_Bill, I'm sure a fair number of those who were interviewed for the Scoop said, "Wow! I guess I really am famous!"
And a fair number of those who weren't said, "You interviewed WHO? Why don't you interview a real celebrity?"
It all depends on whose turn it is in the barrel.
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Or, boiling things down -
"Who is famous?" And similarly, "Who has done what for the community?"
This goes for people *and,* say, Supergroups. Do many people know the Legion of Catgirls? Well, we know them here because of Pep and Sleepy... but other than the occasional gathering on Guardian, are they a visible force? How about the Repeat Offenders - any one of their groups, or as a whole?
Is Thorazdin (I'm sure I butchered your name...) "famous?" I could probably wander into the zones, into PI, etc. and say his name and have people go "Wha... who? Whatever, PL me." How about Slyfe (if he still played?) Do non-PVPers care about either of them at all? I couldn't begin to fathom who's important in the RP community, on Virtue or any other server.
Who is famous, and who is just a "legend in their own mind?" And does it hold true outside of their fiefdom on any specific board, or the forum in general?
And how many of them who believe they are, and believe they're getting ignored, just aren't known outside of their circle?
What standards should be used for selection, for determining who had "done somethign" for the community? PLd the most people? Gave away most INF in costume contests? RPd the same character consistently the longest? Some people might find those to be *highly* important criteria - while others may shrug and go "Yeah, so?"
Do you really think anything close to a criteria that makes everyone - or even a majority - happy can really exist? All the CS folks can do is dip into the various communities on various servers and see what names they get.
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i really have a point here.. im lookin for the words.. gimme a min..
who is famous.. how do you define celebrity???? how do you know who does what on a server... imma use me here as an example. (only cuz it wouldn't be fair for me to use some1 else)
am i famous? yes & not just here on the boards for my mouth that just wont quit.. if you walk into freedom, and you get in PI i garuntee you that at least 7 outta 10 people know my name. why? have i ever played with all these people?? nope- not even close--i try to stay in my own lil SG world and within my friends list.. but how do they know me? cuz i have lead the hami raids on freedom for the last however many months & one way or another people have either talked to me, i have done something for the community & people remember that-- it was funny-- i was on my blaster b4 she hit 50... and i was teamed with a PUG and some1 whisperd to me... are you THE ROSE? you know the one that leads raids??? i was like uh, yea.. they were like cool. and went on their way...
is this fame? i guess... did i ask for it.. nope-- i lead the raids cuz i enjoyed the sense of community. not so i could get some big head and think that im all famous.
i guess my point is-- people don't ask to become famous- it seems to happen... like o, lets say Lord Nikon.. you ask ANYONE in atlas on freedom, who Lord Nikon is-- and they will tell you -- hes that guy that stands around in atlas & helps us out when we are in trouble or if we had questions... and beings that the BTM features people on their different servers-- i don't think the fame test has to be done outside that home server? do you?
but i walked into lol,protector yesterday- and i got the same name from 5 different players virtually at the same time- makes me wonder... what has this player done?? imma be trackin him down sometime tonite... hehehe
"I don't wonda what Rose is like in RL, I just imagine she is a catgurl an' wish I could cyb0r wit her. "
- the legendary J-man
Silence!!! I kill you!
Well, see, in a way you're making my point too. I have no *clue* who you are. Even with my 50 Emp/Rad on Freedom. So, among one group - yeah, you'd be known. With another? I'd point to, say, Teklord first, for instance. Or, again with one of your examples, Lord Nikon... again, no clue. His name wouldn't have come to mind. Given that Freedom's nearly full for me, well...
Turning it around, when I'm on one of my namesakes, I'll occasionally get tells asking if I'm the M_B from the boards. Well, yeah... am I famous? Among some board readers maybe, but throwing me in a BtM interview would have just as many people saying "Who the heck is he? Why didn't (trying to think of a name from "home,") Snugglez get interviewed?"
Last bit, touched on in bothyour reply and mine - for some of us, what *is* the "home" server? Some concentrate on one, sure, others - like me - are all over the place, full or near-full stables on (in my case) Pinnacle, Freedom, and Victory, and the rest pretty busy as well. I'll answer things in broadcast - but does the fact I'm answering as Piracat one day, because I'm on that character, Linnurata the next, Voidbane an hour later, mean I help any less or should be less recognized? Yet... I would be. (not complaining, just pointing it out.)
Ok, I sat back and watches this for awhile and decided to post becaue I feel everyone is overlooking something. First I was trying to find a definitive post on what the Scoop actually wants to be. The best I could find were these quotes. Based on some of the statements about the selection process for the interviews in this thread also contributed.
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From Marcian_Tobay in The City Poop thread in Freedom Section. They're from pages 10 and 11 if you've got the default number of posts per page.
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I like a bit of your above criticism, Rose, and I'll mull it over. In the mean time, I'd like to note that a lot of our readers don't go to the forum, and are notified of the City Scoop by our Updater link. That being said, not a lot of them have seen Statesman's quotes or Lighthouse's posts. That is news to them. While there are always ways that we can improve, please be mindful of that.
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From Lemur_Lad
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Our main job is to highlight what's going on in the game and in the community, not advocacy of one side over another. Start a reasonable discussion on any of those topics and keep it on a level field and we'll write about it.
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From the above I'm guessing that your goal is to increase the community interaction/awareness/togetherness of the game. Stay with me on these next few quotes, there's a point I'm trying to make after you read these.
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Lemur_Lad:
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I'm just going based on things Teldon has told me before. In the end, it's his piece to put up as he pleases, and I think on the whole most people like it. They like it enough to want to be in it and to get jealous when other people are in it instead of them, at least
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Memphis_Bill:
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If I'd been on a few teams doing really well with, say, my Earth/FF troller, and a few minutes later Turg or Rose asked who to interview, they might come back with that character's name even though nobody else has a clue who it is or who plays it.
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Here are my points. I'm looking at your goals for the publication and what the goals are for the interviews.
Where do you get a sense of community?
My answer is from the forums. You all came from... the forums. You are trying to promote community, and that place were you got your sense of community is... the forums.
How do you promote community if people aren't always easy to find on the server?
Strangely, my answer again is... the forums. You're hardly ever going to find anyone on their namesake toon unless they're lewting/farming/grinding to finish IO'ing them out. Where's the one place you can go and always know who in pie you're talking to? The Forums!
The expanded version... your staff seems to want to promote community but you are running from what gives this game it's sense of community. The Forums. It's the place you all got organized from. It's the place where the ideas you introduce in your publication can be discussed. It's the one place you can go and send a message to someone if you want and not have to guess about who's going to get it unless you know globals.
Bringing this back to the interview topic. If you can actually give a way for people to learn a bit about the people that post here, guess what? You make the large, scary environment that is Intraweb forums a less scary place for people that have never gone to or participated in one. And guess what that does. It helps to create a sense of community. Either people lurk and enjoy reading or they sack up and contribute by posting. Both engender a sense of community.
So my suggestion from all this is to not avoid the people that are "famous" on the forums and on their own separate servers/sections. They should be the first you focus on IMHO. The forums are what gives this game a unity if you look at and read the different sections. Most everyone loves the game despite perceived shortcomings.
*cough* Tundy and Ice Melee *cough*
Highlighting these "Forum Celebrities" and "humanizing" them are what's going to make the forums more accessible for people, not random interviews with people that no one is likely to see or hear from in-game. Yes you will get "clique" interviews from people that know a lot about something specific and don't post outside of their one safe zone, but that's their section and it would deserve to be highlighted as well. You want to promote community? Promote the thing that everyone uses but everyone seems to be overlooking.
You can look at that from the flip side though. By focusing on the "forum celebrities", you give the impression that there's a certain "in" crowd and if you're not in that crowd, nobody cares about you. Thus pushing people away because they don't feel their opinion matters.
To me, that entirely falls on how the questions are asked and the stated theme of the line of interviews. There will always be paranoid people that think their opinion doesn't matter and they aren't in the "in" crowd.
Heck, maybe a guide on how a forum works would be helpful so people realize that it's a very big digital world. There are MANY different ponds for people to participate in. It could receive a perma-link and statement at the start of every BtM section to help people get the theme of the section.
Well, why not do a combination?
What I mean is this -
People on the forums are going to know a certain group. People on the servers are going to know a different group (or some of the same people in different ways.)
Get two people (say) from the forums, and two people randomly from the servers. *shrug* They're already (somewhat) going server to server. Forum-side, go section by section. Hit the Tech section? Well, they'd probably ask BillZBubba on that pass for an interview, while in the Art section maybe Rowr. On the server, the pick two of whoever by whtever criteria. The next week they're hitting "Suggestions" and figuring out someone who's active there, and Comic with someone from there, and two people from Infinity.
I'm just thinking it'd be harder to say there's an "in" crowd that way. That and with your longer post about "The community is the forums" - well, no, that's *A* community. Does it represent the PVP crowd on Freedom? The folks who live on Test? The RP folks from Virtue? The "View of a newbie" on Pinnacle? The people you run across on the servers may not know or *care* that the forums exist.
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You can look at that from the flip side though. By focusing on the "forum celebrities", you give the impression that there's a certain "in" crowd and if you're not in that crowd, nobody cares about you. Thus pushing people away because they don't feel their opinion matters.
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I guess the answer there is that you have to start someplace. How long do we think the Scoop will endure? If it lasts a year then that's 52 interviews if the focus is limited to one per week (which in all fairness to Teldon is a reasonable schedule so that he does actually get to play and enjoy the game). That's 52 people to be interviewed spread over 11 Servers.
When an endeavor like this starts out it's normal for it to go with Name Recognition. The easiest way to obtain that off the bat is looking at people in a Server's forum area that have celebrity. Now, maybe those who have some measure of 'Fame' aren't interested in an interview but they would be a good jumping off point .... to find someone who is. Talk to them and if they won't agree to an interview, see if they know someone who might.
All in all, trying to turn out a quality edition on a weekly basis as a hobby is pretty ambitious. Its a lot of work and Diplomacy is part of it if you want to be well regarded.
The thing is (and someone said this...maybe a couple of someones), when you do something like this for the purpose of building the "Community" and doing so under the Aegis of the Community Team you are going to be held to a high standard. The Community will do it (and rather pointedly I might add) but as a matter of personal pride, I would think you'd do it yourselves. You all have the chance to do something that may well influence the future of this game. A lot of people would kill for that opportunity. I hope you use your powers for Good. 
Actually Bill, an article on "First Impressions" from new players might be interesting. Be it the 'n00b' on Pinnacle or Virtue it could be an interesting feature.
Maybe instead of interviewing based on percieved 'Fame' it would be interesting to select people from Events.....not the organizers or the 'big names' but just a 'random Joe' who shows up for the fun. "So, Scarlet Archer....what do you think of the festivities? How long have you been playing?" And so on...sort of a 'man on the street bit.
I think there are lots of ways to go about it but in the end it's all about improving the Community. Does interviewing <insert name here> do that? If yes, then go for it.... if no then drop it.... if maybe then move on to the next one and come back to that name when you have a yes or no.
You guys and gals have a great opportunity here. I hope you make the most of it.
Memphis Bill, if ya don't know Rose or Nikon then ya don't know Rose or Nikon, but I'm pretty shocked you've gotten ta fiddy on freedom an' not at least heard of them.
You can't go inta the Hive witout hearin about Rose. about 6 months back the flame wars between her an' Aged Ice about how ta run a Hami raid on freedom were LEGENDARY. We got almost as bad as Champion is all the time.
And Nikon, well he runs badge-hunter.com and helped build the ubar SG Top Ten.
Your point is that you don't know them. My/Rose's point is that there are people who do big things for the community that you don't even know about. A community paper should be looking to find these people and make them a part if it.
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but i walked into lol,protector yesterday- and i got the same name from 5 different players virtually at the same time- makes me wonder... what has this player done?? imma be trackin him down sometime tonite... hehehe
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Hmm, was it Ishmael?
Curse that Purple Devil! 
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Your point is that you don't know them. My/Rose's point is that there are people who do big things for the community that you don't even know about. A community paper should be looking to find these people and make them a part if it.
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[Devil's advocate]Except if people don't know about them, then that means they arn't famous. Which means, by certain peoples definitions, they shouldn't be in BtM because they arn't famous.[/Devils advocate]
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So my suggestion from all this is to not avoid the people that are "famous" on the forums and on their own separate servers/sections. They should be the first you focus on IMHO. The forums are what gives this game a unity if you look at and read the different sections. Most everyone loves the game despite perceived shortcomings.
*cough* Tundy and Ice Melee *cough*
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I don't know if I was just insulted or given an excellent compliment... Since I know Laser as well as I do, I'll take it as a bit of both.
Now, if you went to the Tanker section and posted a thread asking for names of Famous people you'd see dozens of names. Each section has it's own famous people. Maybe what should be done is something like that. Ask the people who'd they'd like to hear about. Also, certain interviews fit better in certain sections. An interview/BtM with one of the art people fits better in the art section naturally. Personally, I think it would be better to drop the server angle and go to an AT angle on the Interviews, maybe also PvP. An interview with say J-Man might only interest portions of the Freedom commuinity, an interview with Evil Geko, Arcanaville, or Aett Thorn (these are names that just leap to mind) would interest people (hopefully) from multiple servers because they try to promote and help an AT, not a specific server. Just a thought. >.>
And, if Teldon wants to, he can send me the questions, I don't mind. Not sure how many people would be interested in reading an interview with me though. *shrug*
=. .=
This game we all play and love is entertainment, unless there are some people getting paid to play in which I would like to know where to apply
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I ask why is there a perceived competition in being interviewed in the Scoop? Now, I would add I am not a writer for the scoop, nor have I applied to be interviewed for BtM. I would also like to submit the idea that most people who play are broken into one of two catagories either casual players or marathon players. Casual players, which I feel are most often older players who have jobs and not to sound insulting but "real lives" that demand most of our attention. Then there are marathon players who are mostly youths who have the luxury of unlimited time to enjoy this rich enviroment that NCSoft and Cryptic have given us. However I believe it is this group, the youths who have the time to do enough in game to get notority.
Now my point to this is the question. Exactly what do you what to know from the children/teenagers who play the game? I would submit that the "real life" of our player base is the purvue of the individuals who actually know them. I feel it isn't in the best interest of either the game or the people interviewed to disclose too much information about their real personal lives.
Also I would add, that I would be much more interested in hearing about the "lives" and backgrounds of the characters played. I feel character backgrounds and descriptions are much more interesting and alot more relavent to the game.