IO slotting example: How to slot an AOE hold

Scrapulous · 04-12-2007 12:22 PM

I see a lot of questions on test about ideal ways to slot. I also see a lot of sentiment that "IO sets are worse than HO slotting" and people who are discouraged with what Inventions offer.

I suggest that there is more meat to be had in the IO sets than some people are finding, and that this meat is to be found by mixing and matching, as the rednames themselves have suggested.

For the purposes of this discussion, let's look at AE holds, because they have a straightforward slotting convention that makes for easy comparisons. Note: all enhancement numbers are taken for level 50 enhancements.

AE Hold

First let's establish a baseline:

SO slotting: 2 acc, 2 hold, 2 rch
acc: +66.6%
hold: +66.6%
rch: +66.6%
total: +199.8%

Let's use this as our current popular Live slotting for baseline comparison purposes.

Now let's see how common IOs compare:

Common IO slotting: 2 acc, 2 hold, 2 rch
acc: +84.8%
hold: +84.8%
rch: +84.8%
total: +254.4%

The non-set IOs take us into impressive territory compared to SOs. This represents a 27.3% improvement over SO slotting, which is not too shabby. This is good news for all characters who don't have or aren't high enough level to use HOs.

Let's look at how things stack up for those who do have and can use HOs:

HO slotting: 3 acc/mez HOs, 3 recharge SOs
acc: +95.5%
hold: +95.5%
rch: +95.5%
total: +286.5%

This HO slotting has every major enhancement category pushed to the ED caps, and represents a 43.4% improvement over SO slotting and a 12.6% improvement over Common IO slotting.

So lets dig into the most enhancement-potent hold set, Essence of Curare:

Set IO slotting: 6x Essence of Curare (acc/rch, end/hold, acc/end, hold/rng, acc/hold, acc/hold/rch)
acc: +100.7% (treated as 95.5% for totaling purposes)
hold: +100.7% (treated as 95.5% for totaling purposes)
rch: +47.7%
end: +53%
rng: +16% (normalized to schedule A, 26.5% for totaling purposes)
total: 318.2%
Set bonuses:
fear, confuse and stun resistance: +1.65%
hold duration: +1.5% (unconstrained by ED so not included above)
ranged defense: +1.88%

This slotting gives us more total enhancement, but spread across more categories. It is nominally 11% better than HO slotting, but some of that enhancement is in less-desired areas (end, range). For the Control Holy Trinity of acc, mez and recharge, its total is only 238.7% and thus it's actually 16.7% worse than HO slotting.

But let's look at how we can mitigate that with a little creative mix-and-matching. There are a couple of ways to approach this, but mine has been to eliminate the hold/rng and acc/end enhancements, since those enhance less important facets of the power. This gives us:

Combo: Essence of Curare x4: acc/rech, end/hold, acc/hold, acc/hold/rch; 1 acc/mez HO, 1 IO rech
acc: +107.5% (treated as 95.5% for totaling purposes)
hold: +107.5% (treated as 95.5% for totaling purposes)
rech: +90.1%
end: +26.5%
total: +307.6%
Set bonuses:
fear, confuse and stun resistance: +1.65%

This slotting gives us slightly less enhancement than the Set IO slotting. But when we look at the Control Holy Trinity, it fares much better: 281.1%, which is only 1.9% worse than HO slotting, plus we get a small break on endurance and a few set bonuses.

This can be done with Ghost Widow's Embrace, too, which might be more attractive for those who are looking to stack set bonuses.

Combo: GWEx4: acc/rech, end/hold, hold/rng, acc/hold/rch; 1 acc/mez HO, 1 IO rech
acc: +81%
hold: +107.5% (treated as 95.5% for totaling purposes)
rech: +90.1%
end: +26.5%
rng: +16% (normalized to schedule A, 26.5% for totaling purposes)
total: +319.6%
run +5%
health +1.88%
end +2.25%

GWE is a little less flexible than Curare because it has a non-enhancing psi damage proc instead of Curare's excellent acc/hold. But even without the acc/hold to play with, we still get very respectable numbers. The total enhancement is actually higher than the Essence of Curare example (because we're not losing effective enhancement to ED caps). The Control Holy Trinity comparison is not unfavorable, either: 266.6%, only 6.9% worse than HO slotting, and we get much better set bonuses than Essence of Curare.

Hopefully this demonstrates how a mixed approach to slotting can bring together some of the best of both worlds: the ED-capped (or near-ED-cap) goodness that we've come to know from HO slotting, and the set bonuses from IOs.

Scrap

ChaosExMachina · 04-12-2007 12:38 PM

Excellent guide. I'd already decided on mix and match options, but you put up hard numbers, and mixed IO/HOs seem to be pretty balanced with pure HOs, while giving the player more specialization.

It's also worth noting that the procs and sets may make some powers worth taking. For example, maneuvers is now as attractive as assault, if not more so, and the 15% hold chance may lead to more use of fast-recharge low damage blasts that might normally be ignored in favor of power blasts.

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UltraPrime · 04-12-2007 01:08 PM

Great mini guide. It effectively illustrates how even one of the most demanding types of powers can very effectively be slotted in a non pure HO configuration. (By most demanding I mean a power that has a lot of aspects that you would like to buff, more so then the average power). I also really like your format that let's readers compare apples to apples. A nice totaling of the primary and secondary buffs. Primary being the ones that you want to be soft capped and secondaries that are the icing on the cake.

GenericForumName · 04-12-2007 02:47 PM

Ummm you are comparing 6 IO's to 3 HO's + 3 SO's. There is no doubt in my mind that the 6 IO's would come out ahead. A more accurate test would be to compare 6 IO's to 6 HOs.

Using Blind from my ill troller as an example, I would put in :

2 Endos (Acc/Mez)
1 Perox (Dam/Mez) [or you can use another Endo in its place, the total would be identical]
1 Cent (Dam/Range)
1 Ribo (Dam Res/End reduce) [This HO will enhance Blind's damage - the reason for it is for another discussion, but rest assure that it will buff both the damage and reduce endurance]
1 plain old recharge SO, which I plan to replace with a plain old recharge Common IO.

Now do the math, and you will see that the numbers are vastly superior to both IO sets :

Acc : 76%
Mez : 97.2%
Dam : 97.2%
Rng : 16% (normalized to schedule A, 26.5% for totaling purposes) [note: actually this number should be 23% before normalization, but I'll use your number so we are comparing the same thing]
End : 38.3%
Rchrg : 38.3% (42.x% with a plain IO but not counting this here)

Total : 373.5% (3 HO's + 3 SO's = 286.%, your first example = 318.2%, your second exmaple = 307.6%) This number is about 10 points less if your HO's are white when you are at level 50, still far better than all other examples.

Finally, Blind has a damage component while other holds do not. At the same time, Essence of the Curate is one of the "better" sets, while MANY other IO sets have garbage buffs that are either useless, undesirable or have a retarded inflated component (such as End Reduce). Your ideal case and my ideal case both pretty much ignored most of the other, much more common situations. However, on that basis alone, the numbers show clearly which way is superior. 5 HO's and 1 plain old SO beat the best combination of IO set that one can come up with.

ps : As an additional benefit, with the exception of that single Ribo, everything else combined (2 endos, 1 perox, 1 cent, 1 recharge SO) sure will be 10 times easier to get than having to find/farm/bid the recipes and salvage, plus the 3 million influence (maybe more?) that you'll need to put everything together. Heck, there are a few perox's and a whole mess of centrioles sitting in one of my sg's storage right now.

The only thing worse than devs making bad decisions is the hoard of fanboys and bootlickers that keep cheering them on.

Vidszhite · 04-12-2007 03:04 PM

He's comparing AoE holds, not ST holds. AoE Holds deal no damage.

And in fact, the six IOs came out worse than 3HOs/3SOs in all cases of Acc/Control/Recharge.

There is no HO for recharge, so there is no reason to use Six HOs for AoE holds.

Djeannie · 04-12-2007 03:16 PM

I've found since the GCN (Great Controller Nerf) of i5 that aoe holds are not worth the slots. I've been doing them with 4. 2 acc, 2 hold duration. The duration in general sucks so bad and the recharge sucks so bad why waste the slots when other more useful powers can be slotted up instead? The set IO's are pretty sad too for aoe holds. :/

That being said, Great Guide Scrapulous!

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Vidszhite · 04-12-2007 03:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've found since the GCN (Great Controller Nerf) of i5 that aoe holds are not worth the slots. I've been doing them with 4. 2 acc, 2 hold duration. The duration in general sucks so bad and the recharge sucks so bad why waste the slots when other more useful powers can be slotted up instead? The set IO's are pretty sad too for aoe holds. :/

That being said, Great Guide Scrapulous!

[/ QUOTE ]

Even Dominator AoE holds start to become decent when you have 6 slots. Then again we have Domination and access to Power Boost.

Scrapulous · 04-12-2007 04:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I've found since the GCN (Great Controller Nerf) of i5 that aoe holds are not worth the slots. I've been doing them with 4. 2 acc, 2 hold duration. The duration in general sucks so bad and the recharge sucks so bad why waste the slots when other more useful powers can be slotted up instead? The set IO's are pretty sad too for aoe holds. :/

[/ QUOTE ]

What's more, it's harder to mix and match when you have fewer slots. Four isn't horrible, but it does make it harder to swap things out and maintain acceptable depth and breadth of enhancement when dealing with IO sets. HOs really shine in powers with 2-4 slots because you can stack them and build depth very quickly with moderate breadth, or use a variety of them to get wide breadth with moderate depth. It's hard to replicate that with sets because no two IOs in a set have identical bonuses.

IOs really reward six-slotting, and for six-slotted powers they give you surprising flexibility. At least, it still surprises me.

[ QUOTE ]

That being said, Great Guide Scrapulous!

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks to you and to the other folks who have expressed that sentiment. I don't think that what I've come up with is the best slotting, but I want to put up some examples of possible ways to do it so that more sophisticated thinkers can challenge and improve on what I've come up with.

Scrap

Natsuki · 04-12-2007 04:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, Blind has a damage component while other holds do not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blind does 30.59 Psy Damage
Fossilize does 30.59 Smashing Damage
Char does 5 ticks of 6.73 Fire Damage (33.65)
Gravity Distortion does 5 ticks of 6.73 Smashing Damage (33.65)
Block of Ice does 30.59 Cold Damage
Dominate does 30.59 Psy Damage

Umm, that would be ALL of the single target holds that Controllers have access to in their primaries. So, wth is this about Blind having a damage component other holds do not?....

And, for the record, Strangler does 39.75 Smashing Damage. (Higher than Controllers due to Dominators having a higher ranged modifier)

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Scrapulous · 04-12-2007 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Ummm you are comparing 6 IO's to 3 HO's + 3 SO's. There is no doubt in my mind that the 6 IO's would come out ahead. A more accurate test would be to compare 6 IO's to 6 HOs.

[/ QUOTE ]

As Vid pointed out, I was writing about AOE holds. I don't know a way to make 6 HOs efficiently effective in an AOE hold.

If folks find this sort of thing useful, I may post a series of them. ST holds would definitely be in that series, although they're a more in-depth discussion because many of them accept more than one set type (holds and ranged damage, or holds and melee damage). If I write such a post, I'd like to take into account what you've written here. FlyingCodeMonkey also suggested a very effective set combination for melee damage ST holds that looked like it might be competitive with your HO slotting.

[ QUOTE ]

1 Ribo (Dam Res/End reduce) [This HO will enhance Blind's damage - the reason for it is for another discussion, but rest assure that it will buff both the damage and reduce endurance]

[/ QUOTE ]

My understanding is that getting enhancement effects that are not intended or not in an enhancement's description is considered an exploit. Is that not correct?

[ QUOTE ]

At the same time, Essence of the Curate is one of the "better" sets, while MANY other IO sets have garbage buffs that are either useless, undesirable or have a retarded inflated component (such as End Reduce).

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that it's better than the other hold sets, or that hold sets are better than other set types?

[ QUOTE ]

As an additional benefit, with the exception of that single Ribo, everything else combined (2 endos, 1 perox, 1 cent, 1 recharge SO) sure will be 10 times easier to get than having to find/farm/bid the recipes and salvage, plus the 3 million influence (maybe more?) that you'll need to put everything together.

[/ QUOTE ]

My analysis admittedly ignores availability. But it's also worth noting that characters can start assembling sets long before they can start accumulating HOs.

And so far on test I have found full sets much easier to acquire than six HOs. Maybe that will change as Hami raid tactics and STF tactics shake out.

Scrap

Natsuki · 04-12-2007 05:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My analysis admittedly ignores availability. But it's also worth noting that characters can start assembling sets long before they can start accumulating HOs.

And so far on test I have found full sets much easier to acquire than six HOs. Maybe that will change as Hami raid tactics and STF tactics shake out.

Scrap

[/ QUOTE ]
Totally agree here.

I'm much likely to fully IO a char out then I am to get half HO's. After being a 24 month veteran, I only have six, maybe seven HO's currently, three of which were just give to me because a friend had too man. (Centriole's, and Acc/Mez which were useful to my defender but not to the other defenders)

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GenericForumName · 04-13-2007 02:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Umm, that would be ALL of the single target holds that Controllers have access to in their primaries. So, wth is this about Blind having a damage component other holds do not?....

[/ QUOTE ]

As have been correctly pointed out by a couple hours, it should have say "AoE holds" instead of just "holds". The thing being that aoe holds don't have a damage components, and cannot be efficiently slotted with 6 HO's, so 3 HOs + 3 SO's was not a good comparison with 6 IOs'.

[ QUOTE ]
My understanding is that getting enhancement effects that are not intended or not in an enhancement's description is considered an exploit. Is that not correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

If it is an exploit, the devs certainly hasn't said anything about it. I just know that that is how it works now. Its their codes, I didn't write the stuff for Ribo. I just use them lol.

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that it's better than the other hold sets, or that hold sets are better than other set types?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah that's not what I'm saying. There was a post last week about the fact that few IO Hold sets actually have 3 SO's worth of Holds, which is needless to say one of the most important things for Holds. Your example is one of those few examples that fit, but many others do not. In fact, many others have inflated unnecessary or undesireable buffs, like 3 x end reduce. I mean, people don't normally slot 3 end reducer SOs in their attacks, but that type of stuff is common in the IO sets.

[ QUOTE ]
My analysis admittedly ignores availability. But it's also worth noting that characters can start assembling sets long before they can start accumulating HOs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone can get their first HO immediate at level 45 after a single raid. A person would be hard put to be able to collect that entire set you named at level 45, don't you think? Unless you are talking about twinking by another character or having a sugar daddy.

The only thing worse than devs making bad decisions is the hoard of fanboys and bootlickers that keep cheering them on.

LightShadow · 04-13-2007 03:23 AM

I just have to chime in here with the idea that anyone can get HO's easily, that simply aint true. I have been playing for about 30 months and have not been able to take part in a single raid, cause the raids are scheduled for 9pm EST and I am 6 hrs ahead of that. As much as I love this game and cannot wait to do a raid once they are available anytime there are the numbers to do one I am not starting a 2-3 hr task at 3 o'clock in the morning.

As for Villain side I have attempted the Recluse SF a number of times but have NEVER completed it, now maybe I just suck or am unlucky with the teams I have had, not really sure but it is certainly not something I will EVER be farming to completly SHO out a character and I expect States will be the same.

For me IO's look like a way for 'Normal' players to get HO/SHO type stats without being in the VERY small minority of players that can farm/replay the endgame SF/Raids.

All my own opinion of course.

Natsuki · 04-13-2007 03:58 AM

Considering how much I detest raid content, I just don't find it fun to have 50 odd heros or villains beating up on one enemy (Yes, I know there's mito's too but they're technically one enemy, Hamidon).

Even knowing that Hamidon is going to get harder in I9, I am still missing out over 70% of the hamidon raids on live. Not because I'm not online for them, I am around, I just have things I feel more important, i.e. lackeying my friends to me and running missions which gets me and my friends xp (and in I9 would give both of us a chance at lv 45+ sets even though my friend wouldn't be able to use them).

The LRSF, and STF, on the other hand, I would find fun. For the mere fact we're fighting several different AV's/Hero's with different capabilities (Yes, I know the difference between yellow/green/blue mito's).

Bottom line is, I am most likely to earn one HO every two or three day's compared to earning IO recipes on a basis of several hours or so depending on my luck each day. (I am factoring in both finding drops I need, and selling/trading drops I don't for ones I do)

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Eldandil · 05-01-2007 05:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If folks find this sort of thing useful, I may post a series of them. ST holds would definitely be in that series, although they're a more in-depth discussion because many of them accept more than one set type (holds and ranged damage, or holds and melee damage).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, Scrap, folks do find this sort of thing very useful.

At least, this controller is breathlessly awaiting a continuation of your IOs-for-controls series.

Bonker · 05-01-2007 06:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If folks find this sort of thing useful, I may post a series of them. ST holds would definitely be in that series, although they're a more in-depth discussion because many of them accept more than one set type (holds and ranged damage, or holds and melee damage).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, Scrap, folks do find this sort of thing very useful.

At least, this controller is breathlessly awaiting a continuation of your IOs-for-controls series.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm finding the whole series of them and the comparisons worth noting and one of the only threads I voted to keep after the training room wipe.

Well done, sir. Keep them coming.

@Bonker Guide to Base Building for the Small SG
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Remaining: Lusca, Sewers, Eden, Kahn, States, HeroSpec2&3, Apex, Tin Mage, Moritmer Kal, Tesseract, Recluse, 'Cuda, Quarry, Stropharia, Thorn, Arachnos Flier, Deathsurge, Caleb, Seed of Hamidon (Villrespec2&3, Hami, CoP, Incarnates)

Warmaster · 05-01-2007 07:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If it is an exploit, the devs certainly hasn't said anything about it. I just know that that is how it works now. Its their codes, I didn't write the stuff for Ribo. I just use them lol.

[/ QUOTE ]
They have said this is not intended, and that they are working on various ways to fix it. You could suddenly find in any patch that this trick no longer works. I suspect that this will be classified as an exploit, and thus no patch note given.

I believe this came from Castle.

-- War

StartlingWysper · 05-06-2007 01:03 PM

I think it depends on your secondary. I've got a grav/kin, and with siphon speed double stacked, and hasten, and 3 acc/mez and 3 recharge my aoe hold is up every minute or so. Which is pretty damn good for an aoe hold.

Nethergoat · 05-06-2007 01:06 PM

Scrap, you are a king among men for your excellent work explaining set IO's to cement-heads like me who're interested but not smart enough to figure out the best way to use them.

My hat is off to you sir!

The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

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Minotaur · 05-16-2007 07:43 AM

Firstly at least one AoE hold does do damage, EM pulse although I'm not sure it's worth slotting for it.

One slotting scheme you haven't considered is one I've used for other powers, multiple part sets. This doesn't work as well as it does for some other types of powers (basically due to lack of hold/rchg IOs or HOs), but still is worth considering:

Eg: max silliness

Slot the acc/hold/rchg from all 4 hold sets (two would be level 30) plus the two chance for damages. Note that a 30 triple enhancement has very nearly the same total bonus as a 50 double.

You get +77.2% to all but two possible damage sources, some immob res and + run speed

More sensible:

EoC and GWE acc/hold/rchg, 2xacc/mez HOs, common IO rchg, GWE chance of psi.

This comfortably gets you into major ED territory on acc and mez, gets you into the mid eighties for recharge and also gives you some damage and + run spd.

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