Issue 9 Hamidon Overview, 4/3/2007
By
Anglican,
Posted on: 2007-04-03 11:32 in The Market and Inventions
One other thing, for those just getting on test now: Hamidon can now hit and defeat pets/players through intangibility powers such as Phase Shift and Hibernate. He can also defeat Phantom Army decoys, limiting their usefulness in the encounter.
Ooh. I forgot about that! Adding to above.
How about Girl Scout Cookies? I understand Hamidon really digs them Thin Mints.
Oh yeah, I'll definitely add that to *thwack*
*grunt*
Has hami bit the dust yet? Just curious if anyone has actually beaten the Hami at this point, or if new testers can be the ones that break the strategy.
Yup last Saturday.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Yes, beta testers have heroside. Castle even said so, so it must be true.
The heroes did indeed manage to take down Jelly Boy. But it was an incredibly long process and there's probably still a missing piece of the puzzle that'll make things go more smoother.
It's quite a different story for us villains who've never had Hami until now. We're still working on strategy and tactics for our ATs and their multiple roles.
Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."
Problem I saw villain side was the lack of EoE's and not a lot to work with in terms of AT's available. There just wasn't a variety like we had hero side.
Remember guys and gals its a game if someone kills you when you are grabbing a badge you do not die in real life. - Beef_Cake
Favorite i9 post:
Lady_Sadako: Devs: have you actually taken down the new Hami?
Positron: We never defeated the old one.
ir0x0r: Weak!
Do the attacks from hami / the mitos still ignore defense?
That too. But the EoE problem will be solved when we get that promised monster island, and the number of people available will also increase.
Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."
[ QUOTE ]
Do the attacks from hami / the mitos still ignore defense?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. Defense is of zero importance.
The only things that help your survival are Toxic Resist, EoEs, Mez Protection, and HP.
Make that good Mez protection.
I've been stunned and detoggled out of Unyielding+Unstoppable plus 4 breakfrees by the new Hami. Just insane mez power, it is.
Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."
The first takedown was over the course of two days (he got to 25% on the first night), with one of the 3 mito spawns mostly cleared by BaB (that's when he showed that leaving one mito alive wasn't the answer). Not that a real raid would take that long, but the current brute-force strategy is pretty time intensive.
[ QUOTE ]
Make that good Mez protection.
I've been stunned and detoggled out of Unyielding+Unstoppable plus 4 breakfrees by the new Hami. Just insane mez power, it is.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well each yellow has two attacks they can fire off quickly that stun, as does Hami, and I think the blues have a second attack other than their fear/slow one that stuns as well, all doing between mag 6 and 9 or so. So that mag 50+ mez protection can easily be broken 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Make that good Mez protection.
I've been stunned and detoggled out of Unyielding+Unstoppable plus 4 breakfrees by the new Hami. Just insane mez power, it is.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well each yellow has two attacks they can fire off quickly that stun, as does Hami, and I think the blues have a second attack other than their fear/slow one that stuns as well, all doing between mag 6 and 9 or so. So that mag 50+ mez protection can easily be broken
[/ QUOTE ]
Riddle me this: if the yellows have a range of 600, and can punch through mez shields like nothing, and their weakness is melee attacks...how do the melees get close enough to exploit the weakness? Stalkers?
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[ QUOTE ]
Do the attacks from hami / the mitos still ignore defense?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. Defense is of zero importance.
The only things that help your survival are Toxic Resist, EoEs, Mez Protection, and HP.
[/ QUOTE ]
So FF supers are suddenly happy that a couple FF powers still give some minor Toxic resist?
SR Scrappers seem up the creek though.
I mean, Quickness is the only power that matters, since Stuns blast through even Practiced Brawler?
Regen Scrappers seem far superior, since their abilities always work, plus Reconstruction has 20% toxic resist.
Yes, yes, there's some -regen in some mito/hami blasts, along with some -heal.
It basically comes down to 20% faster recharging attacks vs. 20% toxic resist, plus essentially resisting the -regen for a while.
Invuln Scrappers... I think they have Toxic resist somewhere. Unyielding? Dull Pain?
Dark Armor.. they have some Toxic resist somewhere.
Wow. I guess the Stone Tankers will just be using Rooted (for the +regen) and Earth's Embrace. Granite Armor is only useful in tanking the GMs prior to Mitos and Hami.
I guess that's one way to force Stone Tankers to deal damage
Looks like Increase Density and Clear Mind have value, since anti-mez toggles/clicks aren't good enough on their own.
Mmm...
Will be interesting to see if anyone still raids Hami with the Statesman Task Force available.
Which takes more time to complete? (Counting the initial 18 mitos as a bloom, there are four blooms total: 100%, 75%, 50% and 25%; that's a lot of smashing!)
I guess by heavily relying on Electrolytic and Untyped damage, if you had a 50 you wanted to optimize for only Hami raids, you'd max your smash/lethal (for the GMs you farm for EoE) and completely ignore all other resists.
FF and Sonic defenders would dump useless powers to take more attacks from their secondaries. Other Defenders might respec slots, but probably keep their usual assortment of powers.
The Green mitos that are susceptible to Holds...
Is that only the damage portion, or can you mez Green mitos? (Purple Triangles still in effect?)
Blasters have little reason to change any of their powers... Controllers might change enhancers so their mezzes are all 3 Damage SOs instead of 3 Mez Duration.
Yes, you'd be hurting yourself for the other parts of the game, but a Hami-specialist Controller, who would only ever fight GMs, Mitos and Hami would simply aim for damage, right? Unless those Green mitos are Mezzable?
Remember, that person was going in alone. You can check out both or Maruts Strat threads, as well as the Hamidon Tactical center for a lot of details on how we did things.
However a single team buffed can get in with little difficulty, because the effects are distributed.
A single person trying to soak everything for multiple rounds of attacks will get overcome due to stacking. A full team even tightly clustered will, with adequate buffs, have no troubles.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Buffs. I did this only with a squishy with acro, but apparently they can also pierce your average KB protection. So ID was very important.
[ QUOTE ]
Remember, that person was going in alone. You can check out both or Maruts Strat threads, as well as the Hamidon Tactical center for a lot of details on how we did things.
[/ QUOTE ]
They can't Lemur, the closed beta forums are still closed to everyone outside of the test. We have to copy all of that stuff over here so not to repeat it. I sure am glad I didn't author any other those guides.
Remember guys and gals its a game if someone kills you when you are grabbing a badge you do not die in real life. - Beef_Cake
Favorite i9 post:
Lady_Sadako: Devs: have you actually taken down the new Hami?
Positron: We never defeated the old one.
ir0x0r: Weak!
I thought someone told me they were now visible.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
I tried from another PC I have where I'm not logged into my account. The beta forums did not appear while everything else did.
Remember guys and gals its a game if someone kills you when you are grabbing a badge you do not die in real life. - Beef_Cake
Favorite i9 post:
Lady_Sadako: Devs: have you actually taken down the new Hami?
Positron: We never defeated the old one.
ir0x0r: Weak!
[ QUOTE ]
Remember, that person was going in alone. You can check out both or Maruts Strat threads, as well as the Hamidon Tactical center for a lot of details on how we did things.
However a single team buffed can get in with little difficulty, because the effects are distributed.
A single person trying to soak everything for multiple rounds of attacks will get overcome due to stacking. A full team even tightly clustered will, with adequate buffs, have no troubles.
[/ QUOTE ]
If I'm "that person" you're referring to, then you're mistaken. I didn't make this clear in my post, but I'm talking about in general when I say that you need good mez protection. Even as part of a full team with EoEs, I've been stunned through my own shields if the right buffs and the right number of buffs weren't on me. Believe me, I'm not dumb enough to think that I can charge into Hami by myself and expect to survive for any extended period of time.
Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."
[ QUOTE ]
Mmm...
Will be interesting to see if anyone still raids Hami with the Statesman Task Force available.
Which takes more time to complete? (Counting the initial 18 mitos as a bloom, there are four blooms total: 100%, 75%, 50% and 25%; that's a lot of smashing!)
[/ QUOTE ]
We haven't really had a raid yet. Only an experiment that eventually lead to Hami's defeat.
Once we have a set tactic in place and we enact it as best we can, then we can know just how long it takes. Until then, saying things like "It's too long!" is just dead wrong, since you don't know how long it will really take yet.
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Open testing brings with it a fresh playerbase, brimming with ideas and "out of the box" opining, pontificating, and any slew of multisylabbic smart sounding wordamabobs.
However, it also increases the noise to signal ratio substantially.
The purpose of this post is to consolidate and reiterate key facts discovered about Hamidon during the Closed Beta test, without disclosing details of strategy. This allows the expanded base to think and ponder without having to ask questions already answered by exhaustive, debt-aggregating suicide testing.
This post contains no information on, or insights into strategy or execution logistics. Please refer to Marut's MkII Strategy for information on our current availalbe strategy heroside and Silverspar's Overview for a more Villain-focused evaluation.
For information on the new Villain zone, "The Abyss," please refer to Human Being's Quick guide to moving around the Abyss.
Overview
A basic rundown of the major changes to the overall encounter is:
<ul type="square">[*]Zone limit has been changed to 50 toons.[*]New inspirations, called Essence of Earth (EoE) have been added that protect only against electrolytic damage, a special type only done by Blue and Yellow Mitos, and Hamidon itself.[*]There are only 18 mitos, 6 each of green, blue, and yellow, arranged in a radially symmetrical apttern about the nucleus (3 hexagons) with the yellows on the outside, blues int he middle, and greens closest to hamidon.[*]Mitos now deal AOE damage as follows, and hamidon has an additional attack. Further, each mito is susceptible to a specific type of attack:
Yellows: Massive Electrolytic AoE damage and Moderate Electrolytic DoT AoE Damage, High Mag stun, High Mag knockback (Both are greater than anti-mez shields such as Practiced Brawler or Unyielding), range 600 feet. Susceptible to: Melee attacks
Blues: Moderate Electrolytic DoT Damage, -Recovery, +Slow, -End(?), Fear, range 150 feet. Susceptible to: Ranged attacks
Greens: Moderate DoT Toxic damage, -Regen, -Heal, range 150 feet. Susceptible to:Holds. After defense drops, ranged.
Hamidon: Massive AoE Electrolyic Damage, High Mag stun, High mag knockback. Has an additional attack that does Massive ST Electrolytic Damage, High Mag Stun, High Mag Knockback. (Again similar to yellows. Overpowers standard anti-mez shields) Range on both: 600 feet
[*]Mito HP has been reduced dramatically, to about 7.5K each.[*]Hamidon can now attack through Phase shift and other self: +intangibility or invincibility powers (i.e. Hibernate, RotP.) This allows him to demolish Phantom Army Decoys, thus limiting their effectiveness (Thanks Rianeva!)[*]Hamidon's Mez protection Mag is now substantially higher than previous incarnations. Mez no longer prevents mito spawns, nor does it reduce his resistances or regen rate.[*] Hamidon no longer spawns automatically in-zone. In order to make him spawn, the raid teams must defeat about 10-20 of the DE monsters that roam the zone. When this occurs, Hami spawns in its designated location, while the monsters flee to several doors around the map, and remain absent until Hamidon is defeated.[*] Hamidon's Yellow Dawn has been replaced by a "bloom" of 6 of each mito. This occurs when he reaches 75%, 50%, and 25% of his total HP, and ONLY ONCE at each threshold. This spawn is unaffected by multiple factors including:
Mez: According to iakona (I think), the bloom acts as an independently triggered click power, much like the Terra Volta reactor core spawn, or AV spawns.
Remaining mitos: Back Alley Brawler has been our patron god of raiding; In one of the test raids, he left one blue mito to illustrate what happens when hami blooms with remnant mitos. Remnant mitos will not prevent blooms, nor will bloom Mitos "overwrite" old mitos. If 3 greens and a yellow are leftover, the next bloom will still add 6 of each mito. That means there will be 9 greens, 6 blues, and 7 yellows. (Scary.)[/list]
EOEs
Essences of Earth are inspirations dropped by the DE monsters that roam the Abyss, Hive, Peregrine Island, and potentially Grandville. There is a guaranteed drop of 1 EoE per DE monster, randomly given to any member of a team that earned credit in defeating it. This drop is singular, no more, no less. No matter how many teams attack the monster, no matter how many members, the monster will drop only one, on a random toon that participated in tis defeat. Since DE monsters have a guaranteed drop of one non-EoE inspiration in Every participant's tray, to harvest EoEs, each member must have two inspiration slots open.
EoEs themselves are 60 second duration inspirations that protect (100% resistance) against "electrolytic" damage, that is, the damage done by Blue Mitos, Yellow Mitos, and the Hamidon Nucleus. They do NOT protect from their secondary effects, including the high mag stun and high Mag knockback. They do NOT grant special attack properties, nor do they add any special damage to attacks. They only grant full damage resistance against Electrolytic damage.
Frequently asked questions and suggested ideas.
These questions/suggestions are some commonly asked, and have been commonly suggested, ad nauseum. Most of them have been dismissed or refuted by virtue of:
<ul type="square">[*]Overly Complex/Unparsimonious: The plan or idea is too complicated or requires too many gimmicks to be practical.[*]Not in line with intent of "AT balance": The devs specifically tailored this encounter ot work such that any AT can be a contributor. Deliberately requiring obscure powers, powersets, or a massive AT shift, does not fall in line with a plausible strategy, much less a practical one.[*]'Cuz Back alley Brawler said so: As stated previously, BaB has been our patron god when it comes to helping us through the encounter. However directly or indirectly, he's really cleared up some of the reasoning behind the design, and has help us draw important conclusions about the encounter. [/list]
1.I've got an idea! What if...?
Wait. Stop right there. I'm not one to curtail intelligent discourse, but please consider the above rubric before you post an idea. Ideas are great, but they just provoke unproductive, and even destructive discourse if they're too ridiculous. Arguments and flaming ensues, and no one gets anywhere, left with a bitter taste in their mouths. Think it through, try to back it up first, and most importantly, check recent evidence/numbercrunching first. Wacky=/=Ingenuity.
2.What if we confuse Hamidon/mitos?
The problem with focusing on one or two powers is precisely that. It seems highly unlikely and impractical that we would need, let alone have, the massive mag to overcome their protections. Back Alley Brawler demonstrated what happens when a mito becomes confused, with much hilarity, but little in the way of effectiveness. Further, he implied that confusion is not a viable strategy, outright saying "This is not a hint" when he used his dev permissions to confuse the mito.
3.What if there's a secret way to prevent blooms/maybe there's a way to "break hami's resistances"
BaB specifically said that the encounter is to be time-regulated by use of blooms. Logically this extends to other properties of hamidon, including damage resists and mito synergy. Each of these aspects is specifically designed to keep the encounter difficult and maintian its time investment. If there were a way to shortcut straight to hami without EoEs and without mito blooms, then there would be no challenge or appropriate preparation needed. This would fly in the face of devs' intentions and would likely result in a fix if it proved to make the encounter too expedient. At this point, we'd all glare at you menacingly for ruining a good thing.
4.What about nukes/shivans?
The jury's still out on nukes, but we're trying to avoid them. They might be good to take out one or two mitos, but that depends heavily on the "type" of damage they are counted as. Shivans are too unpredictable and too impractical to use in mito clearing. Short of Hami pounding, nukes and shivans do little. Doing more damage to hami, which, at 50 people, with guaranteed blooms, is rather meaningless.
5.Geez, if mitos are that strong, tohit debuffs, defense and resists are mostly meaningless; why bother with sets like FF, Sonic resonance, etc.?
You're not thinking fourth dimensionally! In fact, FF, Dark and sonic have a lot to offer the raid execution. The key is to look at the secondary effects of some of their powers, and to draw focus away from that which are some sets' obvious strengths.
Dark, for example offers 8.6 Mag Fear protection. No, it's not enough to save squishies on its own, but it certainly helps during blue removal. Two dark defenders can protect the entire ranged contingent from the fear effect of the blues.
Force field offers three useful powers in the form of their bubbles' secondary effects; the S/L bubble offers tox resists, while the E/NE/F/C bubble offers End drain protection. Dispersion bubble offers and additional 8.6 mag protection against stuns and holds (and immobilizes, but that's less relevant).
Sonic is probably the most valuable of these three sets. Not only does it provide mez protect and tox resists via dispersion and its S/L bubble, but it also has clarity, a clone of CM that is invaluable for the current Yellow mito strat.
Conclusion
We're looking forward to hearing many good ideas, and several not so good ones to help us fine tune the existing strategy. There's still a lot of details to iron out, but we're working toward a clean, foolproof strategy.
And remember, victory is only gained if you RUN FASTER, and use... OIL SLICK, WTH?